Indeed, and F1 has always been like this. Sometimes a lot worse. We're in the Mercedes years, but those are no worse than the Red Bull years, the Ferrari years. Even in the early 90s when it was a bit more of a mix up, races were often won by minutes, not seconds. 6-8 finishers was normal. The field quality is higher than it ever has been, especially at the back. No more Forti
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2019 Formula 1 Season Thread
- Thread starter MOFS
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Indeed, and F1 has always been like this. Sometimes a lot worse. We're in the Mercedes years, but those are no worse than the Red Bull years, the Ferrari years. Even in the early 90s when it was a bit more of a mix up, races were often won by minutes, not seconds. 6-8 finishers was normal. The field quality is higher than it ever has been, especially at the back. No more Forti
It’s most definitely not close now! And having your own wind tunnel doesn’t mean anything, Red Bull have one and still rent others to confirm their results they are getting.
The money is capped, they ALL have the same amount to spend. That will be a big impact.
I think your all wrong and it will make the racing a lot closer, I expect a lot more aggression on the track with much more overtaking as they will have the grip to do so.
We shall see though.
Ah yes. Budget caps. The thing that every series has tried and failed to enforce because business is hard.
So here's how you get around a budget cap. Maximum budget is £300m. But it would cost £200m to just develop the car! So that doesn't leave much for drivers and staff and operations. So you don't develop the car. Another company, called, for example Ilmor Tech, develop the car. And they spend £600m on it - because they aren't competing, so aren't bound by the Formula One sporting regulations. And they sell it to Mercedes for £1m. And now Mercedes have a car for £1m, and £299m left to spend elsewhere.
This exact tactic is how RBR and STR managed to use the same car for so long. That was illegal. But RBR never sold the cars to STR. The cars were developed by Red Bull Technologies and RBR and STR bought the cars. That only stopped because now RBR use STR for testing development strategies (such as Honda engines).
These massive multi-national corporations are experts at avoiding paying taxes in every country in the world. If you think that Liberty has a plan that will somehow restrict their finances, in a way that all the governments in the world were unable to do, then I have a bridge to sell you.
So here's how you get around a budget cap. Maximum budget is £300m. But it would cost £200m to just develop the car! So that doesn't leave much for drivers and staff and operations. So you don't develop the car. Another company, called, for example Ilmor Tech, develop the car. And they spend £600m on it - because they aren't competing, so aren't bound by the Formula One sporting regulations. And they sell it to Mercedes for £1m. And now Mercedes have a car for £1m, and £299m left to spend elsewhere.
This exact tactic is how RBR and STR managed to use the same car for so long. That was illegal. But RBR never sold the cars to STR. The cars were developed by Red Bull Technologies and RBR and STR bought the cars. That only stopped because now RBR use STR for testing development strategies (such as Honda engines).
These massive multi-national corporations are experts at avoiding paying taxes in every country in the world. If you think that Liberty has a plan that will somehow restrict their finances, in a way that all the governments in the world were unable to do, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Yet again your wrong, under the new rules any team who breaks the financial rules will have their championship removed off them, as they stated in the video the reason other attempts at this have failed is because they lacked severe penalties, this time as they stated the rules and punishment ‘have teeth’.
so your little idea would not work, and the cap is 175 million.
The new rules also impact wages and working hours of the staff during race weekends.
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When you put it that way, there's one thing I absolutely fear. The "We found a massive irregularity from the 202X season. We're stripping your manufacturer's title and giving it to the second place team." dilemma. It's sooo common in US collegiate sports that a team has to "vacate" a championship years after they got their pomp and circumstance. No one really cares if its vacated from cheating - they already had the spoils. I imagine there's still a number of things that have to be fleshed out in the accounting enforcement department, but I seriously hope the sport doesn't go toward THAT direction.
lol once again I’m wrong. About what? About that other series have tried it? About other series failing? About budgets rising despite caps? About how they work around budget constraints? About how teams always outsmart rule makers?
This thread is turning into “My first F1 rule change” and being stunningly naive about how the sport works. Everyone who doesn’t think it will turn out perfect is wrong. Just look at all the other times it turned out perfect! It must do - the punishment has teeth!
What are they going to do? Throw them out of the championship? Like they did to Schumacher in 97? McLaren with Alonso v Lewis? Ban them like Renault for race fixing? Or Toyota in WRC? Ban them for a race like BAR? These penalties have always been available to the FIA. Not only available, they’ve actually been used. Now they’ve “got teeth” I’m totally sure the teams are too scared and 70 years of abusing the rules will stop!
$175m cap. Aye. Nae bother. That’s the biscuit fund for Mercedes.
This thread is turning into “My first F1 rule change” and being stunningly naive about how the sport works. Everyone who doesn’t think it will turn out perfect is wrong. Just look at all the other times it turned out perfect! It must do - the punishment has teeth!
What are they going to do? Throw them out of the championship? Like they did to Schumacher in 97? McLaren with Alonso v Lewis? Ban them like Renault for race fixing? Or Toyota in WRC? Ban them for a race like BAR? These penalties have always been available to the FIA. Not only available, they’ve actually been used. Now they’ve “got teeth” I’m totally sure the teams are too scared and 70 years of abusing the rules will stop!
$175m cap. Aye. Nae bother. That’s the biscuit fund for Mercedes.
Remember the top three salaries aren't in the budget, so you can still pay the two drivers and other key personal what you like. That will make a difference.
They said driver salaries would somehow be affected but didn’t go into details from what I remember. I’ll have to watch the video again to see what they said about it, you could be right though.
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As you know everything already why are you bothering to post replies? Even though your totally wrong. Have a good day I won’t reply anymore to you as it’s a total waste of time.
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Remember: Use the ignore function!
So here's a fun fact. Albon has scored more points than Verstappen since being promoted to RBR. 68 points to Max's 54 in the same period.
So here's a fun fact. Albon has scored more points than Verstappen since being promoted to RBR. 68 points to Max's 54 in the same period.
Some team principles have openly said they are now worried drivers will be able to demand even higher salaries. If the regulations work and the cars are closer (see above discussion) then the driver will make even more of a difference. So the best drivers will be in more demand. And as their salaries are uncapped the drivers will be able to demand more and only the rich teams will be able to afford the drivers who truly make that 0.1s a lap difference
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Bingo. Everyone is spending the same on cars (hahahaha....), but don't worry, the billion dollar Mercedes and Ferrari will pay higher wages to get the better drivers now. And thus, the split will stay.
I don’t think many will feel sorry for drivers if they have a pay cut to fall in line with a budget cap. The racing comes first and drivers already enjoy plenty of perks through hospitality and sponsors outside of their wages and bonus structure. They are already hideously overpaid really.
I think you mis-understand. The drivers are not going to take a pay cut. They are outside the budget cap. The really good drivers are going to get a large pay increase if the regs work the way they are designed.
I agree, but that isn't how it works. A pay cap that excludes drivers means that Mercedes and Ferrari now have more spare budget. So the drivers know they can demand that. This could push wages up.
We will see what happens there, they can demand as much as they like, it’s pointless if no team will pay it! And ALL teams have a limit to what they will pay..
Bur I still see it as a gain as they’ll have to actually work to win, I don’t want them to sit 40 plus seconds out in front!
This is not going to be any different from the present situation, Hamilton and Vettel are both paid about £50 million per year. A significant number of drivers earn at or about one millionper year.
Sure but hypothetically let's say Williams could afford £50M then they could make an offer to Hamilton. But if Hamilton can now demand £100M and Mercedes see the value to keep them winning then Williams can no longer afford the drivers who make the difference. If the regs work and the car performance is closer this is another way that the big teams can stay in front by spending more even with a cost cap in place
If drivers are purely in it for the money then they may have to watch while others take lesser wages and get better race results. Williams used to pay less than most teams in an era where they had the best package. If drivers want the high wages and teams resist, then they can’t exactly argue. The teams have potential to control the situation.
The likes of Hamilton and Vettel earning £35m a year is obscene. That would be the first thing I’d be tackling if total budgets included wages like that.
The likes of Hamilton and Vettel earning £35m a year is obscene. That would be the first thing I’d be tackling if total budgets included wages like that.
I recall Senna offered to drive for Williams for free when they were the car to be in.
I’m sure Lewis wouldn’t go there for a Billion. He’s already rich enough. But he has no desire to drive a car that won’t deliver him wins.
I’m sure Lewis wouldn’t go there for a Billion. He’s already rich enough. But he has no desire to drive a car that won’t deliver him wins.
He did, but only because of the exceptional circumstances. He also had an argument with Ron Dennis over half a million. It wasn't really about that - it was the principle. It ended up being a coin toss.
Ron Dennis on Ayrton Senna
In 2004, ten years after Ayrton Senna's death, his former team boss Ron Dennis spoke to the press about the Brazilian and his life with McLaren. Now Edd Straw re-visits that interviews and gathers the thoughts of other personalities who knew him well
Really good story.
Senna did indeed and when Mansell came back to cover for the unfit Coulthard in late 1994 he was apparently on £1m a race! All because David couldn’t apply a brake pedal over a race distance
Senna did indeed and when Mansell came back to cover for the unfit Coulthard in late 1994 he was apparently on £1m a race! All because David couldn’t apply a brake pedal over a race distance
That came back to bite Nigel when DC went on to win races, and Nigel couldn't fit in the McLaren. ? But Nigels BTCC drive in the late 90s was epic.
His F1 career was well and truly over by 1995 though at 43. I remember being amazed he was being considered at McLaren back then as he’d retired twice lol. Unlike DC though I think Nige was championship material and was unlucky not to be a double WDC. DC had one really good change and blew it under pressure. Great number 2 though in his prime.That came back to bite Nigel when DC went on to win races, and Nigel couldn't fit in the McLaren.But Nigels BTCC drive in the late 90s was epic.
But Nigels BTCC drive in the late 90s was epic.
I think DC was absolutely championship material, but just not up there with Hakkinen and Schumacher. If you look at 1995/1996 and are super critical about it, it tells a story.
1995, DC regularly out preformed Damon Hill. Out qualified him. Out raced him. And when you take out wheel bearing and gearbox failures, he scored more points than him too. He made some daft errors, but no more than Damon did. Damon went on to win the title in 1996, but had McLaren not taken up the DC option, there's a significant chance that Damon would've lost that title. He won because Schumacher went off to Ferrari and blew up engines on formation laps, DC was off at McLaren, Mika wasn't quite ready yet, and JV was a rookie. And even then he still almost lost.
DC is not a name you can mention alongside Hakkinen and Schumacher. But he is a name you can mention with Hill and Villeneueve. Some drivers get their titles. And some drivers, like DC and Webber, are not in the right place at the right time. I'd say Hill and JV were tier 2 champions, and DC and Webber were potential T2 champions but the stars never aligned.
And then there's the mad facts that Massa and Irvine almost won titles. If they had titles and Webber did not then that'd be crazy to think about.
1995, DC regularly out preformed Damon Hill. Out qualified him. Out raced him. And when you take out wheel bearing and gearbox failures, he scored more points than him too. He made some daft errors, but no more than Damon did. Damon went on to win the title in 1996, but had McLaren not taken up the DC option, there's a significant chance that Damon would've lost that title. He won because Schumacher went off to Ferrari and blew up engines on formation laps, DC was off at McLaren, Mika wasn't quite ready yet, and JV was a rookie. And even then he still almost lost.
DC is not a name you can mention alongside Hakkinen and Schumacher. But he is a name you can mention with Hill and Villeneueve. Some drivers get their titles. And some drivers, like DC and Webber, are not in the right place at the right time. I'd say Hill and JV were tier 2 champions, and DC and Webber were potential T2 champions but the stars never aligned.
And then there's the mad facts that Massa and Irvine almost won titles. If they had titles and Webber did not then that'd be crazy to think about.