4k TVs are so advanced, whats the point of Apple TV 4k?

[Peepo]

I just got a 43" Hisense 4K HDR TV for bedroom. It is a Smart TV and has Roku TV built-in. I find the menu and speed very impressive and most people would probably have no need for anything else. It has Netflix, Amazon Video, YouTube, and even Plex client. I even downloaded the Roku App for iOS and could cast pictures and videos to the TV. For these things, the experience of all these apps is pretty much the same as an AppleTV while saving a couple hundred dollars. Considering this TV was only $389 CAD... it is hard now to justify spending $229 CAD on an AppleTV which really doesn't offer much more.

The ONLY thing I like AppleTV in bedroom for is because MrMC is way better as a Plex client and using it I can also play all videos without transcoding. But the reality is I mostly watch my Telus Optik TV (separate box via HDMI), Netflix, Amazon, and YouTube on it and could survive without an AppleTV in bedroom altogether now.

In Family Room I have 4K AppleTV setup on my Samsung SmartTV... the Samsung TV is several years old and not quite as good as my new Roku TV therefore I prefer to use AppleTV exclusively for everything, and also same reason being MrMC on it.

I also use my AppleTV as a HomeKit hub. My Home Automation is not based on HomeKit - I just make it compatible using HomeBridge and could get along easily if I lost that feature.

 

[Mac 128]

In Family Room I have 4K AppleTV setup on my Samsung SmartTV... the Samsung TV is several years old and not quite as good as my new Roku TV therefore I prefer to use AppleTV exclusively for everything, and also same reason being MrMC on it.

And this paragraph in particular is the exact reason why you’ll eventually need an Apple TV for the bedroom. I have a Roku that’s a few years old, and it’s no longer supported. It was great when I first got it, and it definitely rivaled my Apple TV 2. But now I have no choice but to replace it. I would hate if it were built into my TV. Smart TVs are a short term solution. We’ll see if they get better support than stand alone units, but at some point the hardware itself will limit what software updates can do, even if a company maintains excellent support.

 

[Macalicious2011]

Smart TVs are a short term solution. We’ll see if they get better support than stand alone units, but at some point the hardware itself will limit what software updates can do, even if a company maintains excellent support.

I don't bank on it. Consumer electronics companies have always and still suck at software and UI to a degree.

 

[ghughes20]

It is a Smart TV and has Roku TV built-in. I find the menu and speed very impressive and most people would probably have no need for anything else. It has Netflix, Amazon Video, YouTube, and even Plex client.

What about the network specific apps like NBC, FOX Sports Go, HBO GO etc? Are these typically available on Smart TVs? I have a 2017 Smart TV LG OLED. I never used the built in aps as I was already deeply entrenched in the Apple environment and already had a 4k ATV, which I find very useful, so I have no experience using Smart TV apps.
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I don't bank on it. Consumer electronics companies have always and still suck at software and UI to a degree.

I wonder if this is due to the fact that they rather sell you a new TV with upgraded Smart TV software/functions rather than patch the OS on older TVs.

The stand alone streaming box revenues are tied into selling you content (movies) rather than making money on hardware sales - I would think.

 

[Macalicious2011]

What about the network specific apps like NBC, FOX Sports Go, HBO GO etc? Are these typically available on Smart TVs? I have a 2017 Smart TV LG OLED. I never used the built in aps as I was already deeply entrenched in the Apple environment and already had a 4k ATV, which I find very useful, so I have no experience using Smart TV apps.

Yes, Some TV networks create apps specific apps for Smart TVs but others don't bother, let alone updating the apps for existing apps. As other have mentioned, apps are sometimes discontinued and never updated. Expect bugs and less quality/stability than ATV apps.

That happened to the BBC app on the bedroom TV. It's not a problem as I have a Chromecast plugged into it.

I wonder if this is due to the fact that they rather sell you a new TV with upgraded Smart TV software/functions rather than patch the OS on older TVs.

That is unlikely as most people keep their TVs for 5-10 years. Secondly if you have subscribed to satellite TV the past 12-18 months, your set-top box is likely to have YouTube and Netflix apps making the smart-TV functionality more redundant.

 

[Bearxor]

I'm on the verge of ditching the Apple TV myself.

The newer models opened up the ability for anyone to make an app for the device, which was great, but was playing catch-up. The best feature I used was the TV app but its hit or miss sometimes. Some shows don't show up with new episodes and I really hate that if I watch something for ten minutes out of curiosity and don't like it that I have to go in to the TV app and tell it to remove it from the play history.

The biggest thing I use the ATV for was airplay but I do it so infrequently that I'm starting to wonder if it's worth sticking around for just for that.

I pre-ordered the new FireTV Stick and I'll give it a go. I feel like the ATV could be so much more but for the price premium I'm just not feeling it.

 

[Juicy Box]

We’ll see if they get better support than stand alone units,

I don't bank on it. Consumer electronics companies have always and still suck at software and UI to a degree.

I wonder if this is due to the fact that they rather sell you a new TV with upgraded Smart TV software/functions rather than patch the OS on older TVs.

That is unlikely as most people keep their TVs for 5-10 years.

There was a consumer electronic convention recently, I can't remember which one, that the panel spent a lot of time discussing this issue.

Basically, the overall theme was questioning if Smart TVs are here to stay, or will the "Dumb" tv make a comeback over the next few years.

The biggest issues with the long term support of the OS of Smart TVs is that the profit margins for TVs were all ready pretty small. There just isn't anywhere else that TV manufacturers could cut back to increase funding for long term software support.

IDK, but I am assuming that having third-party Smart OS, such as Roku helps cut back on support costs, as much of the software development will be done by these third-parties.

But, for many companies that are doing in-house OS development and support for their Smart TVs, they are not making any money on them. They might end up going back to the Dumb TV.

 

[Peepo]

I subscribe to TV through Telus so I am not concerned with channel specific apps.

 

[ghughes20]

What I like about channel specific apps is that they often have old episodes available on demand. Not sure if Telus is live only, or if it does the same thing.

Also, sometimes the channel specific apps have more selection than other sources.

Your mileage may vary!!

 

[Peepo]

What I like about channel specific apps is that they often have old episodes available on demand. Not sure if Telus is live only, or if it does the same thing.

Also, sometimes the channel specific apps have more selection than other sources.

Your mileage may vary!!

Telus Optik tv is full IPTV on demand and can view past episodes of shows and movies. Can even restart many shows if missed the beginning. Pretty much no limit on channels as it streams them off their servers. My internet allows 5 simultaneous HD streams and probably one 4K although not much content.

 

[winstars]

Telus Optik tv is full IPTV on demand and can view past episodes of shows and movies. Can even restart many shows if missed the beginning. Pretty much no limit on channels as it streams them off their servers. My internet allows 5 simultaneous HD streams and probably one 4K although not much content.

Will it work in the USA if I use a smart DNS on Apple TV or a VPN on a MBP???

Thanks

 

[iSayuSay]

I wonder if this is due to the fact that they rather sell you a new TV with upgraded Smart TV software/functions rather than patch the OS on older TVs.

The stand alone streaming box revenues are tied into selling you content (movies) rather than making money on hardware sales - I would think.

Of course every company would rather you to buy their newer unit instead of patching the old TV's OS. But TV isn't a smartphone that you normally will upgrade within 2 -3 years. People would expect to use their TVs for 5 - 10 years.

It's more of cost efficiency. There's no profit for TV companies to work on and update their old smart TVs regularly. They're cheap and too stingy to support older product and yes, they want to make new sales instead.

So I love Apple TV for that reason. The A10X chip inside will last 5 - 6 years at least, it is incredibly fast, especially for a tv box.

 

[Topfry]

In spite of all this, Sony are producing a rather nice android based TV set without any of these concerns, and to be honest this is exactly where Apple should be right now: https://www.t3.com/reviews/sony-af9-review (and ijustine has also done a review of it).

 

[priitv8]

... and to be honest this is exactly where Apple should be right now:

Why?
I do own their AndroidTV and I could not be happier, if that Android just was not there.
I would be happiest, if it were just a top-notch dumb screen.
And Sony is notoriously bad in software support on their past products, so I use AppleTV exactly to fill in the "smart" part of the package.
Also, much cheaper to upgrade after 1-2-3 years, than this gorgeous screen. Which should have a useable life of 5-10 years anyway.

 

[Mac 128]

In spite of all this, Sony are producing a rather nice android based TV set without any of these concerns, and to be honest this is exactly where Apple should be right now: https://www.t3.com/reviews/sony-af9-review (and ijustine has also done a review of it).

Nope. I have one of those new Android based Sony TV sets, and it’s a hot mess. The TV is amazing, but the smart features are a total cluster f. I use it as a dumb monitor which my Apple TV is hooked up to. Picture is spectacular. Sadly the Android interface crawls and after a year of owning this thing, it’s been one slow crawl forward with each update fixing issues with a one-step forward, two steps back approach. Perfect example — a couple of months ago there was an automatic Google App download that caused some often used picture adjustment menus to take over 5 seconds to open. It took about a month to pinpoint that app as a problem via online communities for lucky participants to uninstall the app and turn off auto downloads, and another few weeks before Google finally sent an update.

I would not recommend anyone buy a Sony Android TV with the intention of using the built-in smart features.

 

[priitv8]

Nope. I have one of those new Android based Sony TV sets, and it’s a hot mess.
...
Picture is spectacular.

Which model, if I may ask?

 

[Mac 128]

Which model, if I may ask?

900E

 

[Topfry]

Why?
I do own their AndroidTV and I could not be happier, if that Android just was not there.
I would be happiest, if it were just a top-notch dumb screen.
And Sony is notoriously bad in software support on their past products, so I use AppleTV exactly to fill in the "smart" part of the package.
Also, much cheaper to upgrade after 1-2-3 years, than this gorgeous screen. Which should have a useable life of 5-10 years anyway.

I wou

Nope. I have one of those new Android based Sony TV sets, and it’s a hot mess. The TV is amazing, but the smart features are a total cluster f. I use it as a dumb monitor which my Apple TV is hooked up to. Picture is spectacular. Sadly the Android interface crawls and after a year of owning this thing, it’s been one slow crawl forward with each update fixing issues with a one-step forward, two steps back approach. Perfect example — a couple of months ago there was an automatic Google App download that caused some often used picture adjustment menus to take over 5 seconds to open. It took about a month to pinpoint that app as a problem via online communities for lucky participants to uninstall the app and turn off auto downloads, and another few weeks before Google finally sent an update.

I would not recommend anyone buy a Sony Android TV with the intention of using the built-in smart features.

so... Apple could do some good in this area? ATV 4 came out, what... 3 years ago? A TV set that integrated an ATV would be able to eliminate most compatibility/resolution/sound problems and minimise peripheral/cable clutter, and offer some potentially new tech (such as the speaker through the screen tech as in the Sony I linked). Tv manufacturers are developing the smart aspect year on year, and they are improving a lot. Just saying.

 

[priitv8]

so... Apple could do some good in this area? ATV 4 came out, what... 3 years ago? A TV set that integrated an ATV would be able to eliminate most compatibility/resolution/sound problems and minimise peripheral/cable clutter, and offer some potentially new tech (such as the speaker through the screen tech as in the Sony I linked). Tv manufacturers are developing the smart aspect year on year, and they are improving a lot. Just saying.

Well, whether Apple should manufacture a TV set, has been a discussion subject more than once.
I am still firmly supporting the opinion, that no, they should not.
First and foremost - the display panel is the most expensive part, yet the most long-lived (even technology-wise).
The MoBo with all the smart-OS-features will be outdated after 2-3 years.
Taking Sony as example - I bet 3 years after end of production, we will not see a single software update from them.
Apple is one of the best vendors in support - normally software updates are available to models up to 5 years after end of prod.
So here comes the catch - if I have a good display that costs 4000 and add aTV 4K that costs 200, then in my opinion I can happily upgrade it again and again after 2-3 years but still keep my display. I really do not see justification to replace a top-of-the-line display every so often.
But the smartness of my setup is kept up-to-date.

PS Sony understood themselves the ingeniousness of their screen-speaker design - on A9F you can connect it as center speaker to your AVR and also prolong the useful service life of that perfect display panel. The smart AndroidTV inside it will be outdated soon.

900E

OK, I see. I have the Z9D. Lets see how long will the firmware updates still be released. I think we are on the verge of end-of-support pretty soon.

 

[ghughes20]

So here comes the catch - if I have a good display that costs 4000 and add aTV 4K that costs 200, then in my opinion I can happily upgrade it again and again after 2-3 years but still keep my display. I really do not see justification to replace a top-of-the-line display every so often.
But the smartness of my setup is kept up-to-date.

This makes sense to me, and remember, ATV is a premium product, the other streamers are even less than $200. IMO, this is a good investment every 2 - 3 years to keep the system the "smartest" and not subject to the whims of the TV manufacturers to support software 3+ years after sale.

I stand by my earlier point, the streamers are in the business of selling content, not hardware. But to sell that content, they need the best environment to do so, thus they need to produce current hardware to let their content shine. I don't think they want to solely trust the tv manufactures to keep the software up to date.

I wonder if the tv manufacturers get a cut of content they sell through their smart apps? If this revenue stream is significant, perhaps there is motivation to keep the software running smoothly.

 

[Topfry]

Well, whether Apple should manufacture a TV set, has been a discussion subject more than once.
I am still firmly supporting the opinion, that no, they should not.
First and foremost - the display panel is the most expensive part, yet the most long-lived (even technology-wise).
The MoBo with all the smart-OS-features will be outdated after 2-3 years.
Taking Sony as example - I bet 3 years after end of production, we will not see a single software update from them.
Apple is one of the best vendors in support - normally software updates are available to models up to 5 years after end of prod.
So here comes the catch - if I have a good display that costs 4000 and add aTV 4K that costs 200, then in my opinion I can happily upgrade it again and again after 2-3 years but still keep my display. I really do not see justification to replace a top-of-the-line display every so often.
But the smartness of my setup is kept up-to-date.

PS Sony understood themselves the ingeniousness of their screen-speaker design - on A9F you can connect it as center speaker to your AVR and also prolong the useful service life of that perfect display panel. The smart AndroidTV inside it will be outdated soon.
OK, I see. I have the Z9D. Lets see how long will the firmware updates still be released. I think we are on the verge of end-of-support pretty soon.

And yet Sony and other tv companies keep producing new tvs year after year with slight improvements, but people still buy them? I dont think your point works as an argument against an apple tv set. I think an apple tv set could fit very well into the apple ecosystem, what they would charge for it would be a different issue.

 

[400]

Can you imagine the Apple mark up on a LG OLED panel? It would be eyewatering.

 

[ghughes20]

Can you imagine the Apple mark up on a LG OLED panel? It would be eyewatering.

An Apple branded TV would probably cost double, and what would they give you to justify the extra cost? Part of me wants to see them try and see how they differentiate from the competition, but I can't see myself ever buying one.

Perhaps they tie in a branded TV with the content they're supposedly producing. You can only watch our content on our TV!!!

 

[Mac 128]

I wou


so... Apple could do some good in this area? ATV 4 came out, what... 3 years ago? A TV set that integrated an ATV would be able to eliminate most compatibility/resolution/sound problems and minimise peripheral/cable clutter, and offer some potentially new tech (such as the speaker through the screen tech as in the Sony I linked). Tv manufacturers are developing the smart aspect year on year, and they are improving a lot. Just saying.

I agree that Apple should get into the TV market. But not for all the reasons you suggest. At the end of the day, I have no cord clutter with my TV. My ATV attaches to the rear of the TV with Velcro, and attaches via a short HDMI cable. I don’t even know it’s there. It’s totally integrated with the set via CEC, which is not perfect but works well on my TV. I stream my audio via an aptx LL dongle to a subwoofer. Apple could improve peripheral integration, and design in this regard. But aside from that, unless they offer the ATV integration as a dongle like the Firestick, I would hate to invest Apple premiums into a TV panel which while surely an improvement over the horrors of Android TV, will just as surely be obsolete well before the EOL of the TV.

And yet Sony and other tv companies keep producing new tvs year after year with slight improvements, but people still buy them? I dont think your point works as an argument against an apple tv set. I think an apple tv set could fit very well into the apple ecosystem, what they would charge for it would be a different issue.

Washing machine makers keep producing new appliances every year with slight improvements and people keep buying them. But not the same people. Just like a washing machine, a TV is a major appliance commodity. Everyone needs one. Expecting people to upgrade their 65-75 TV display every 2-3 years to get smart function improvements when a $100-200 discreet add on box will accomplish the same thing is unreasonable.

 

[Topfry]

.

Washing machine makers keep producing new appliances every year with slight improvements and people keep buying them. But not the same people. Just like a washing machine, a TV is a major appliance commodity. Everyone needs one. Expecting people to upgrade their 65-75 TV display every 2-3 years to get smart function improvements when a $100-200 discreet add on box will accomplish the same thing is unreasonable.

I think rebuying every 5-8 years is fairly reasonable, and I doubt the incremental improvements would justify the purchase until some decent upgrade after that period. Not ‘Everybody’ buys a new $1000 mobile phone every generation, either. As you say, it’s not the same people buying them, because the market is large enough. Otherwise there wouldn’t be any TVs sold at all.