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adamfozzy

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Original poster
Dec 4, 2012
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I love my MacBook 12 inch but with it now discontinued and the MacBook Pro/Air too heavy plus the iPad Pro not able to do my most common task (edit my website), I am now considering the Surface Pro X. It seems to tick many boxes for me. Is anyone else having similar thoughts?
 
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The Man

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2004
612
225
If you are able to leave to eco system, why not? MS surface is the only computer I would consider besides Apple. I'm too invested in certain apps, and documents that are locked in a format only available on the Mac. If you don't have these problems, Surface could be nice. I don't know how I would like Windows. Last experience was with XP, and that was truly awful.
 
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adamfozzy

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 4, 2012
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Thanks for everyone's reply. I agree with the whole tied to Apple ecosystem - it works really well. I've been going through the apps I use regularly and there are decent alternatives on Windows. However, I am worried about the reliability of Windows. My concern with Apple from my perspective is the Mac hardware and features are being left behind. I also prefer fanless and sub 1kg devices, which is the MacBook 12 is perfect for.

If there was a roadmap of Apple bringing out that sort of device in the future then I would probably keep my MacBook 12 inch until that time. However, I have had it for 2.5 years and although it still works pretty well, I did go for the base model plus the features are not there; crap FaceTime camera, poor microphone, 1 usb-c, larger bezels compared to new laptops, no Touch ID/FaceID. This being said, the form factor is wonderful but Apple just seems to want to push people to the heavier MacBook Air/Pro or limited iPad Pro, so I am left in no-mans land for my next device and the Surface Pro X seems a real possibility.

Do people think that Apple are finished with ultraportable laptops (under 1kg)? Or with rumours of ARM chips in Macs, is there a future? It did seem a coincidence that Apple discontinued the MacBook 12 inch and Jony Ive left Apple in the same month.
 

The Man

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2004
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I think Apple updates have really slowed down. I loved the Apple that had yearly updates of all the Macs (boy, that was a long time ago). Apple of today always put themselves in a corner when it comes to processors they want to use, and Intel not delivering them in time. I would preferably have Apple just put out more incremental updates instead of waiting years for larger updates.

Yeah, I agree the MacBook was nice. They only had to add a second USB C port. But you see where the tech is going: the iPad Pro. The MacBook had all the crappy stuff, as you noted, and the iPad Pro got all the good stuff (camera, speakers, mics, face ID).

It would be nice if Apple were to introduce an ARM based Mac, but Apple is so slow in moving things on the Mac (years and years for a new Mac Mini, Mac Pro, and the MacBook Air) that I have no confidence it will see the light of day in 2020 (because they have to introduce the OS to developers first, so it means it will take up until 2021 for such a MacBook to come to market). I could be wrong. It is likely, though, Apple will move to ARM.

Microsoft is at least doing some new things at a more steady pace. Yeah, before the introduction of the Surface, I didn't like Microsoft that much. Although Surface RT was a bit wonky. But they have shown that with better leadership they can come up with new stuff and actually bring them to market (previously it was always concepts and demos, a.k.a. vaporware). Surface Pro X seems nice. If you can handle Windows, why not? So perhaps wait for WWDC 2020, and if nothing new comes up, go for the Surface.
 

zhenya

macrumors 604
Jan 6, 2005
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I have owned a couple of Surface Pro's, and I own a 12" Macbook. I agree that the new Pro X would be a compelling alternative, however I'm quite gun-shy about Microsoft quality and support. Both of my Surface Pro's ultimately had failed batteries due to Microsoft firmware updates and the only option for a fix was to pay Microsoft $600. It's too bad because Microsoft's hardware design is one of the few options available that is in the same ballpark as Apple's.

The other thing to consider is the kickstand form factor which is ok if your primary use of the device is as a tablet, but it's really unwieldy as a laptop. Hard to use on your lap or a plane/train table. Takes up a lot more space wherever you are working, and is not as stable. Although they've improved the stiffness of the keyboard, it will never feel like typing on a laptop.

Why do you feel like you need to replace the Macbook? If yours is an older model, I'd look at buying a used or refurbished example of the latest model available in highest trim, and if your primary use is editing a website, it will serve you for many years yet to come.
 
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The Man

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Jul 7, 2004
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I have owned a couple of Surface Pro's, and I own a 12" Macbook. I agree that the new Pro X would be a compelling alternative, however I'm quite gun-shy about Microsoft quality and support. Both of my Surface Pro's ultimately had failed batteries due to Microsoft firmware updates ...

The other thing to consider is the kickstand form factor which is ok if your primary use of the device is as a tablet, but it's really unwieldy as a laptop. Hard to use on your lap or a plane/train table. Takes up a lot more space wherever you are working, and is not as stable. Although they've improved the stiffness of the keyboard, it will never feel like typing on a laptop.
I also read things about the battery failure due to MS update. Seems strange. Also always wondered about the kickstand. I'm still rocking my MacBook Air from 2013. Want to upgrade the SSD to maybe 480 GB (from 128 GB) with OWC Aura N. Just installed a new NewerTech battery. If only current MacBooks could be serviced by the user that way.
 
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adamfozzy

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 4, 2012
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It would be nice if Apple were to introduce an ARM based Mac, but Apple is so slow in moving things on the Mac (years and years for a new Mac Mini, Mac Pro, and the MacBook Air) that I have no confidence it will see the light of day in 2020 (because they have to introduce the OS to developers first, so it means it will take up until 2021 for such a MacBook to come to market). I could be wrong. It is likely, though, Apple will move to ARM.
Yes, ARM on Mac seems a long way down the road and even then, will they even use it in a MacBook 12 inch design or more likely a MacBook Air/Pro, especially if iPad Pro is still getting the newest tech.


The other thing to consider is the kickstand form factor which is ok if your primary use of the device is as a tablet, but it's really unwieldy as a laptop. Hard to use on your lap or a plane/train table. Takes up a lot more space wherever you are working, and is not as stable. Although they've improved the stiffness of the keyboard, it will never feel like typing on a laptop.

Why do you feel like you need to replace the Macbook? If yours is an older model, I'd look at buying a used or refurbished example of the latest model available in highest trim, and if your primary use is editing a website, it will serve you for many years yet to come.
Yes, the kickstand is one of those things. For certain uses it great, such as propping it up to watch film etc. But I tried a 2017 surface pro for a few weeks and when used as a laptop, it dug into my legs a little. Maybe they've softened the edge. Still thinks it's a better solution than the iPad Pro in terms of lapability.

My MacBook is the June 2017 model so no point getting used/refurbed as its the latest model, albeit nearly 2.5 years old. I know it will be fine for a while yet but the things that annoyed me a little when I bought it are more exasperated now; poor camera and mic quality and not the quickest machine with its m3 processor. I could get a refurbed higher spec one as they are still around but that would cost more than a new surface pro x. Battery life is also important to me and my macbook's has really dipped in the last few months. If I dont buy the Surface then I'll probably get a MacBook Pro next year, just not into the whole Touch Bar/fans/heavier computer thing.
 

The Man

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2004
612
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Battery life is also important to me and my macbook's has really dipped in the last few months.
That is putting me off buying current MacBooks. It can't be user serviced. Also a bit wary when buying top of the line iPad pros because of this, but usually iPad batteries have longer life, which is I guess a result of lower power consumption of ARM, so less strain on the battery. With iPads, though, I usually buy cheaper ones, so no problems.

Going with MacBook Pro is quite expensive, as base currently only has 128 GB SSD (oh Apple, please give us 256 GB base model next year). I'm waiting to see what the MacBook Air gets next year. Hoping to see a brighter P3 display, or is that reserved to pro only?
 

adamfozzy

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 4, 2012
122
80
Going with MacBook Pro is quite expensive, as base currently only has 128 GB SSD (oh Apple, please give us 256 GB base model next year). I'm waiting to see what the MacBook Air gets next year. Hoping to see a brighter P3 display, or is that reserved to pro only?
Yes, I would be very reluctant to go MacBook Pro.
 

The Man

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2004
612
225
Yes, I would be very reluctant to go MacBook Pro.
So wait, is the Surface Pro X keyboard separate? So how much would that cost with 256 GB SSD? Let's see. $1570 including pen. Entry level MacBook Pro with 256 GB SSD is $1499. Both come with a paltry 8 GB RAM (methinks hardly enough these days). For that money, an Air will get you 16 GB RAM. What did the MacBook 12" cost back in the days? Was it the same as the base pro now?
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,020
7,863
Yes, I would be very reluctant to go MacBook Pro.
The Air isn’t that much lighter than the Pro, but it does have a tapered design. Hopefully Apple brings back a smaller Air option. That said, I’d wait for 2020 before considering an Air. Intel will soon be releasing the 9W Ice Lake Y chips that have quad-core options. That could be a game-changer.
My guess is that Apple dropped the 12” MacBook since the next generation chips are 9W and need fans. The Surface Pro X, ironically, is running on an ARM chip. Windows on ARM hasn’t worked well in the past, but supposedly new Windows Store apps must be written to support it.
 

The Man

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2004
612
225
My guess is that Apple dropped the 12” MacBook since the next generation chips are 9W and need fans. The Surface Pro X, ironically, is running on an ARM chip. Windows on ARM hasn’t worked well in the past, but supposedly new Windows Store apps must be written to support it.
So Apple couldn't move forward anymore, because there weren't any good fanless options? Well another case for the ARM Mac, I guess.

Windows on ARM can also run regular 32 bit X86 apps, while the RT couldn't.
 

adamfozzy

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 4, 2012
122
80
So wait, is the Surface Pro X keyboard separate? So how much would that cost with 256 GB SSD? Let's see. $1570 including pen. Entry level MacBook Pro with 256 GB SSD is $1499. Both come with a paltry 8 GB RAM (methinks hardly enough these days). For that money, an Air will get you 16 GB RAM. What did the MacBook 12" cost back in the days? Was it the same as the base pro now?
I'm a teacher and Microsoft offer better edu prices than Apple so the Surface pro x is much better priced than a MacBook Pro, even Air too. I can get the surface pro x for £899 base model compared to base MacBook Pro at £1160. I did get a really good deal on my MacBook 12 inch when I bought it a few years ago but not sure I would have paid RRP.

The Air isn’t that much lighter than the Pro, but it does have a tapered design. Hopefully Apple brings back a smaller Air option. That said, I’d wait for 2020 before considering an Air. Intel will soon be releasing the 9W Ice Lake Y chips that have quad-core options. That could be a game-changer.
My guess is that Apple dropped the 12” MacBook since the next generation chips are 9W and need fans. The Surface Pro X, ironically, is running on an ARM chip. Windows on ARM hasn’t worked well in the past, but supposedly new Windows Store apps must be written to support it.
I suppose with Microsoft putting ARM on their own flagship Surface Pro then they would make the software work for it but only time will tell.
 

The Man

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2004
612
225
I'm a teacher and Microsoft offer better edu prices than Apple so the Surface pro x is much better priced than a MacBook Pro, even Air too. I can get the surface pro x for £899 base model compared to base MacBook Pro at £1160. I did get a really good deal on my MacBook 12 inch when I bought it a few years ago but not sure I would have paid RRP.
Well, the value would seem to be highly in MS favor. Is that including keyboard? And would 128 GB SSD and 8GB RAM be enough for you? I'm wary of buying anything with less than 256 GB SSD. And I would prefer 16 GB RAM.
 

Acorn

macrumors 68030
Jan 2, 2009
2,642
349
macrumors
It looks nice but it’s windows. I installed windows on my Mac just to see if I could deal with it and the amount of updates all the time is completely out of control. Also I experienced random slowdowns where for whatever reason the system would be slower than crap and unresponsive randomly. The experience was really bad. The comment of the computer is doing something becomes common excuse for slowness.
 

The Clark

macrumors 6502a
Dec 11, 2013
710
2,045
Canada
It doesn't really matter how much MS innovates with the Surface line, it's still running Windows and that's a problem. There's advertisements in the start menu of a paid operating system for Christs sake. Not to mention the bloatware, telemetry (which uses up network resources), forced updates and the User Interface dissonance. What a mess of an OS.
 

The Man

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2004
612
225
It looks nice but it’s windows. I installed windows on my Mac just to see if I could deal with it and the amount of updates all the time is completely out of control.
My brother used Windows PC until 2010. I always had to be the repairman to fix whatever was wrong with his PC as a Mac person. The bulk of my experience was with XP and that was a mess of an OS. Yes updates and slowdowns back then too. The constant read/writing to the HD, always busy doing something, while doing nothing in particular as a user, was baffling to me. I would have thought things have changed since then. What Windows version have you tried? I simply can't imagine things haven't changed in almost 15 years time.
 

adamfozzy

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 4, 2012
122
80
Windows is the single reason I probably won't get a surface pro x. I use Windows 10 at work on both my teacher PC and also teach pupils computing in an IT suite full of Windows PCs and there are daily issues. IT technicians always recommend Windows because they know they will have to regularly fix something, effectively keeping them in a job. I once joked to our IT technician that he could go part-time if we had an IT suite of Chromebooks or iMacs - he didn't get the joke. ;)
 

ascender

macrumors 601
Dec 8, 2005
4,941
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I'd happily get an MS laptop if it ran macOS as they've been doing some nice bits of hardware recently. Not sure about a Surface though as I recently had to use a Windows 10 tablet for a bit of work and it was shockingly bad to use - the idea of having a full-bodied OS on a tablet is great in theory, but the UI just doesn't work when you scale it up like that.

Windows 10 is a definitely a vast improvement on past versions, but when you start to dig in to the settings, you realise its layer upon layer of scaffolding built on top of the old Windows we know so well. I wish they'd sort that out and at least make the UI consistent from end to end. Its strange, because Microsoft has been doing some great things in software too.
 

adamfozzy

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 4, 2012
122
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Windows 10 is a definitely a vast improvement on past versions, but when you start to dig in to the settings, you realise its layer upon layer of scaffolding built on top of the old Windows we know so well. I wish they'd sort that out and at least make the UI consistent from end to end. Its strange, because Microsoft has been doing some great things in software too.
Yes, it's like sticky plaster over sticky plaster over sticky plaster....
 

The Man

macrumors 6502a
Jul 7, 2004
612
225
Windows 10 is a definitely a vast improvement on past versions, but when you start to dig in to the settings, you realise its layer upon layer of scaffolding built on top of the old Windows we know so well. I wish they'd sort that out and at least make the UI consistent from end to end.
In XP, I always found all the scattered system and application files to be a mess. And those shared DLL files, or something, always messing things up. And the settings were so scattered. I never knew where to do what. Install, uninstall, and repeat, to get things going. Drivers never working. I once installed Windows 95 just for the heck of it, and it seemed pretty clean, simple, and lightweight by comparison. Not that bad.

Going by your experience, it seems Microsoft never tried having a good clean start. Not that I like everything on the Mac side. But OS X (MacOS) always felt like having been built on a solid framework that was meant to last at least two decades. And XP, it seems, never was that foundation for Microsoft to begin with, so the crud kept piling up. But honestly, I have no personal experience with Windows since XP, so I really can't give my opinion on Windows to anyone.
 
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ascender

macrumors 601
Dec 8, 2005
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Its a strange one, but you get this nice shiny UI which is the like the window dressing - looks good, works well (relatively speaking), then when you have to go beneath the big colourful switches and icons, you find the old property dialog boxes from Windows XP/NT.
 
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adamfozzy

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 4, 2012
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80
Another thing to factor in when thinking of moving away from MacOS to Windows (or any other OS) is how much software comes free with Apple devices. For me to do my screen recording, video editing, productivity etc I would need to spend over £150 or subscribe to services each month.
 
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