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LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
No doubt that Apple engineers had the wrong set of priorities when they designed the previous Mac Pro. But, I don't think it had anything to do with "avarice"; just a matter of assigning people to the job who didn't understand the priorities in this specific market segment.

if your priority is to put monetary gains ahead of all else. it's avarice.
 

tongxinshe

macrumors 65816
Feb 24, 2008
1,064
651
having money though is the prime way of fixing that though.

yo won't have staff or talent pool untl there's work for them to come.

This is one of those places that "if they build it, they will come". people WILL work where there's work to be found. People aren't going to suddenly move to _________ an train in _______ if there's no job here to use those skills.

Apple has the money to build the factory and plants, train the employees, and even build a small town around it to help get the ball rolling

simply put. They will not spend that money doing so. it would require repatriation of a lot of money they have not paid tax on, AND it would for a short period result in a diminished profit number due to the up front cost.

that's where the idea is dropping dead. Tim Cook will not risk such profit change even if it's short term. His deal as CEO for his stock options is pegged to the stock price at a given point of time. He will do what is in HIS best interest to ensure he getes maximum value. That means he needs to keep it high when those shares divest. This isn't about whats best for Apple or whats best for "MAGA". this is about whats best for Tim.

It's NOT short term pain, it'll be ongoing forever! These low paying jobs (comparing with other jobs in the US that requiring a lot more skills) are always seasonal, Apple need to keep paying the full salary to everyone, but without work for half of them during more than half of the months, to keep them stay in the town, while at the same time begging them to work overtime, with double to triple pay, during the three busiest months.
 

Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,029
3,145
Not far from Boston, MA.
if your priority is to put monetary gains ahead of all else. it's avarice.

But there's an implicit assumption in your statement. I can assure you, from working at a big tech company somewhat like Apple for 15+ years, that money is a big thing; but it's far from the only thing. And for most people, they believe (whether it's true or not), that it's not even the main thing.
 

Mr.Scarface

macrumors regular
Jan 2, 2009
161
159
You mean...

"we would love to make the Mac pro in the United states, I just don't want to because I am full of greed and refuse to accept a slightly lower stock price"

No, it mean that #BabyHands is throwing a Tantrum with these BS tariffs and is hurting America companies and farmers.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
No, it mean that #BabyHands is throwing a Tantrum with these BS tariffs and is hurting America companies and farmers.
That is very true too :p

Trump is a blowhard ninkmpoop racist rapist.

(queue the outrage!)

But on that, I believe that localized manufacturing for the regions in which companies sell is an obligation by those companies, as they take monetary gain from those regions and IMHO owe something back to those communities.

Trade is great and I support free trade, but it should never come at the expense of human rights abuses and crippling local economies for extreme personal gains

Tarriffs are also a fools move and will have negative reprocutions accross the world when yielded in this manner.

while it sounds like my ideals and Trumps ideals somewhat lineup I am very diametrically apposed to his actions and behaviour.
 

macfacts

macrumors 601
Oct 7, 2012
4,687
5,520
Cybertron
Samsung is a Korean company and they make some of their smartphones in Korea.

Apple has shown they only care about profits and yet some people still trust apple with respect to privacy.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,454
4,231
Mr. Cook is the CEO of a $960 Billion company. If he truly wants to make the Mac Pro in the USA then he certainly has the authority and resources to make that happen. Actions speak louder than lip service.
He waws pretty clear - the parts are made around the world and the final assembly would be here. By the time US manufacturers of all the needed parts were found and production started it would be outdated and cost far more.

What Apple is doing is not uncommon - auto manufactures import engine and put them in cars assembled in the US. The Corvette (Auto) has something like 67% US and Canada made parts. The Mustang 46%. BMW's US assembled vehicles 30% or so. It's "Assembled in America from US and foreign components."
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,454
4,231
Though, we ship chicken to China for processing and then ship it back to sell?

Uh, no. They are shipping Chinese chickens processed in China; which makes sense because the chicken parts need to be flash frozen within hours to slow the growth of bacteria. To ship, thaw and reship would take too long.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/china-chicken-reshipped/

We do (did?) ship a lot of dark meat to Russia from ports in the US to help keep the cost of chicken higher in the US since US consumers don't like dark meat and thus it would have to be cheaper and possible cut into sales of white meat.

I know a guy in the granite business and they ship some to China for finishing and reimport it becasue it's cheaper tahn doing it here. Most of theta sold in the US comes from overseas, something like 80% with Brazil #1 source.
 

jerryk

macrumors 604
Nov 3, 2011
7,418
4,206
SF Bay Area
He waws pretty clear - the parts are made around the world and the final assembly would be here. By the time US manufacturers of all the needed parts were found and production started it would be outdated and cost far more.

What Apple is doing is not uncommon - auto manufactures import engine and put them in cars assembled in the US. The Corvette (Auto) has something like 67% US and Canada made parts. The Mustang 46%. BMW's US assembled vehicles 30% or so. It's "Assembled in America from US and foreign components."

Get a Tesla. Body panels made in America, Batteries assembled in America, cell made in Japan. Seats made in America. Software written in America. Works out to 100% designed in America, 50+% parts made in America, 100% assembled in America, exported to the rest of the world.
 

jwdsail

macrumors 6502a
Mar 3, 2004
851
922
Having money isn’t going to suddenly make it so the US has the proper workforce and facilities to do so.

But, perhaps investing a fraction of that in votech education at the high school and secondary levels in the US, and even Europe, would allow Apple, and other tech companies, options. I thought Apple, at least SJ, liked to have options? And, perhaps that would feel less like lame lip service than the pearl-clutching "there just aren't any trained workers!" theatrics we seem to get from Tim every time this subject comes up?
 

HVDynamo

macrumors 6502a
Feb 21, 2011
687
1,036
Minnesota
Hey, Tim, regardless of which country you make the Mac Pro in, could you please do it sooner than in six friggin' years after releasing the upcoming model? I mean, can you do it sooner than 2025? For anyone who thinks this is an exaggeration, just keep in mind that the upcoming 2019 Mac Pro is replacing a Mac Pro that hasn't been updated since 2013.
Isn't it supposed to be available this fall?
 

2010mini

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2013
4,698
4,806
Mr. Cook is the CEO of a $960 Billion company. If he truly wants to make the Mac Pro in the USA then he certainly has the authority and resources to make that happen. Actions speak louder than lip service.

TC has shareholders to answer to. Shareholders want profits... if building outside the US makes them more, so be it.
 
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koruki

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2009
1,346
669
New Zealand
Mr. Cook is the CEO of a $960 Billion company. If he truly wants to make the Mac Pro in the USA then he certainly has the authority and resources to make that happen. Actions speak louder than lip service.

He is the CEO of a PUBLIC company, his JOB is to do what's best for the shareholders, not what makes internet forum users feel warm and fuzzy (we know that/s harder than interstellar space travel)
 
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v3rlon

macrumors 6502a
Sep 19, 2014
872
681
Earth (usually)
Try Google.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with a company called “Foxconn”.
There should be a wealth of information about it!!!

For example, did you know that the largest iPhone production facility employs 400,000 employees?
Wow! That’s a big number, huh?
Let’s put it into perspective, shall we?

Obviously, a facility that size would need to kinda be in the middle of nowhere... we’re talking about the population of a city descending upon it on a daily basis.
But for nice round numbers.... let’s pretend it could be put smack dab in the middle of Los Angeles. That’s a big city, right?
I believe the Los Angeles population is about 4 million.
Easy math! =)
You just get one out of every ten people living in the city of LA to start working at Foxconn, & your idea (If I can even call it such) will work fine.

Hopefully your mind went “Wait... that would never work, I mean are there even that many unemployed? what’s the chances of literally every single one of them wanting to work there & appropriate candidates? Huh, maybe I should Google more. Wow, it seems like Foxconn, even in densely populated China has to run fleets of buses miles into other provinces even, to collect up a workforce that size. This doesn’t seem remotely feasible in America”.

Further... I don’t feign to know what you and any of your friends and family do for a living, but I would hazard a guess near zero of them have repetitive motion production laborer jobs.
The type of people that usually do that work here are high school drop outs and felons.... and they HATE their jobs. We’re taught in America that creativity & freedom in the workplace are hallmarks of success. Nobody here is going to proudly state at a dinner party “I put a single speaker in iPhone housings thousands of times a night”. That job would be performed here, begrudgingly, with heavy complaining, to the lowest acceptable rate, with very little pride in the work, because our society doesn’t value that type of work. Now, switch to China... the above proudly exclaimed statement may illicit comments like... “Really? How impressive & fastidious! Would you like to meet my daughter? She’s unmarried, you know...”.
Their ENTIRE SOCIETY is set up for this type of work to be of higher quality there!!!! Step outside your American bubble & try to fathom other cultures. It’ll reward you in many ways... having the business acumen to quite easily parse why iPhone production in America is near impossible is but one small benefit, sir!

1. "Foxconn City" employee counts vary wildly from 230k to 450k (and probably vary as they ramp production up and down with flagship release products)
2. Its not like they all work in one building. There are software people, truck drivers, suppliers, HR people, janitors, cafeteria cooks, and whoever inspects the safety nets so people do not jump off the roof. Then there are people who do not even work for Foxconn: the phone company, the tool reps, and so on. Remember Foxconn only employs 800,000 worldwide and has numerour other factories.
3. Its not like all they make are iPhones. Foxconn makes motherboards and graphics cards for numerous companies, and other electronics for hundreds, if not thousands of other companies. Not all 400,000 people are sitting on an assembly line making iPhones.
4. Even Foxconn says apple should move production out of China (though they meant other Foxconn facilities in Taiwan and India).
5. The population of Los Angeles COUNTY is 10 million and change. Not everyone has to live in the city where they work. You could even commute from outside the county. GM once employed half of Flint Michigan (90k of 180K), so its not like we haven't done similar things before.
5. Are you saying the Chinese have some skill America people (including Chinese Americans) do not? The same things they do there can be done here. I am not saying it should be done, but that is far different than "can't be done."

Its just manufacturing. You follow a process and improve the process as often as possible. It can be done on any continent.
 
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Sedulous

macrumors 68030
Dec 10, 2002
2,530
2,577
But if they used standard off the shelf parts, we'd be able to upgrade, maintain or replace components without ever engaging or giving Apple any more money.

Proprietary parts make sense under extreme conditions when there are no standards that can be used due to some technical limitation.

A phone for example, we don't question soldered on storage, RAM, CPU etc, because we all for the most part understand the size of thed evice provides a massive technical limitation in providing modularity.

But as you scale up in size, you also scale up in flexibility. Purposely designing devices to be proprietary for no other reason other than to be proprietary is purely a monetization method that reeks of avarice.

Agreed.
[doublepost=1564633329][/doublepost]
Yeah, that is a very good question. I think, however, the reason lies in the fact that pretty much every other product Apple designs is intended for a market where compactness and lightness are high-value differentiators. That's certainly true for the iOS products and the laptops; and we saw that design philosophy reflected in the iMacs as well, even though a lot of people feel that has gone slightly too far. In order to minimize size and weight to the greatest extent, all components, even the screws, need to be custom.

The "trashcan" was intended for a market where that kind of size/weight minimization had no value at all. But the design team for that Mac Pro was probably made up of engineers who had prior experience of Apple's mainstream products, and retained those sensibilities and values. "Corporate DNA" is a real thing.
Right, and we are talking about the Mac Pro. I understand the need for proprietary components for small mobile devices but for a desktop computer it is not really needed.
 

Sedulous

macrumors 68030
Dec 10, 2002
2,530
2,577
Given that the 2013 Mac Pro uses non-proprietary Torx screws, it's an indication of the U.S. simply lacking manufacturing capacity.

Apple may have asked for a different thread diameter, screw length, or other spec. Nothing crazy.

If you are only allowed to use off the shelf parts, you follow the same line of thinking everywhere which limits innovation.
Would it not be easier to ship a box of screws than a lot of the sensitive parts like the CPU? I mean even Lenovo and HP manufacture computers in the US. Probably because many of the components are made in the US. I am not trying to be argumentative or anything... just thinking out loud.
 
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JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
12,442
22,999
Would it not be easier to ship a box of screws than a lot of the sensitive parts like the CPU? I mean even Lenovo and HP manufacture computers in the US. Probably because many of the components are made in the US. I am not trying to be argumentative or anything... just thinking out loud.

Lenovo and HP assemble a small number of computers in the U.S. only to satisfy TAA (government) orders. Virtually no components are made in the U.S.

It makes no sense to assemble in the U.S. given most of the engineering work is done in China.
 

PinkyMacGodess

Suspended
Mar 7, 2007
10,271
6,226
Midwest America.
Doesn't it seem silly to have the entire guts of the machine made elsewhere, and the final assembly to take place in 'America' just to avoid tariffs? What's the point? 'Making' the mother boards involves someone feeding raw material into a machine, and then unloading the finished product, (granted a gross simplification) and sending it to be put in the cheese grater box, and they can't do that here? They could make one huge factory that did all of the manufacturing and assembly in one building, chips and raw materials in one end, and cheese graters out the other. Are the environmental regulations that are still in place here that much more odious than those in China/Korea/Vietnam? Is it that much more costly to pay someone to feed the machines? (I thought automation was the thing they were doing so well) Those jobs don't have to be done in China. The first jobs sent to China didn't have to go there. 'They' sold our nation out, the investor class, yearning for more profit. DEMANDING more profit, letting nothing stand in their way. *sigh*
[doublepost=1564660148][/doublepost]
Would it not be easier to ship a box of screws than a lot of the sensitive parts like the CPU? I mean even Lenovo and HP manufacture computers in the US. Probably because many of the components are made in the US. I am not trying to be argumentative or anything... just thinking out loud.

Assembling is not 'manufacturing'.
 
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jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,454
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He is the CEO of a PUBLIC company, his JOB is to do what's best for the customers, not what makes internet forum users feel warm and fuzzy (we know that/s harder than interstellar space travel)

Actually, his first duty is to the shareholders. Making customers happy is merely a means to that end.
[doublepost=1564662210][/doublepost]
Get a Tesla. Body panels made in America, Batteries assembled in America, cell made in Japan. Seats made in America. Software written in America. Works out to 100% designed in America, 50+% parts made in America, 100% assembled in America, exported to the rest of the world.

My point exactly - assembled, not made. Hondas are more American than Tesla.
 
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Justanotherfanboy

Suspended
Jul 3, 2018
851
1,369
1. "Foxconn City" employee counts vary wildly from 230k to 450k (and probably vary as they ramp production up and down with flagship release products)
2. Its not like they all work in one building. There are software people, truck drivers, suppliers, HR people, janitors, cafeteria cooks, and whoever inspects the safety nets so people do not jump off the roof. Then there are people who do not even work for Foxconn: the phone company, the tool reps, and so on. Remember Foxconn only employs 800,000 worldwide and has numerour other factories.
3. Its not like all they make are iPhones. Foxconn makes motherboards and graphics cards for numerous companies, and other electronics for hundreds, if not thousands of other companies. Not all 400,000 people are sitting on an assembly line making iPhones.
4. Even Foxconn says apple should move production out of China (though they meant other Foxconn facilities in Taiwan and India).
5. The population of Los Angeles COUNTY is 10 million and change. Not everyone has to live in the city where they work. You could even commute from outside the county. GM once employed half of Flint Michigan (90k of 180K), so its not like we haven't done similar things before.
5. Are you saying the Chinese have some skill America people (including Chinese Americans) do not? The same things they do there can be done here. I am not saying it should be done, but that is far different than "can't be done."

Its just manufacturing. You follow a process and improve the process as often as possible. It can be done on any continent.

Right, right, right...
Hmmmm, you’re asking “can it be done here?”; where you SHOULD be asking, “can it be automated?”.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,454
4,231
Actually, his first duty is to the shareholders. Making customers happy is merely a means to that end.
[doublepost=1564662210][/doublepost]

My point exactly - assembled, not made; the supply chain is global. Hondas are more American than Tesla. Even Mercedes was more American than Tesla in 2018.
 

curtvaughan

macrumors 65816
Dec 23, 2016
1,069
1,145
Austin, TX
You don't think we have the workforce to build the facilities?
Not at the wages Apple is willing to pay - that's the main reason for Chinese assembly contracts. Until the worldwide labor market equalizes, that will continue to be the case. As expensive as Apple products are right now, that would pale compared to prices U.S. assembly would entail - at least for now.
 
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Sedulous

macrumors 68030
Dec 10, 2002
2,530
2,577
Doesn't it seem silly to have the entire guts of the machine made elsewhere, and the final assembly to take place in 'America' just to avoid tariffs? What's the point? 'Making' the mother boards involves someone feeding raw material into a machine, and then unloading the finished product, (granted a gross simplification) and sending it to be put in the cheese grater box, and they can't do that here? They could make one huge factory that did all of the manufacturing and assembly in one building, chips and raw materials in one end, and cheese graters out the other. Are the environmental regulations that are still in place here that much more odious than those in China/Korea/Vietnam? Is it that much more costly to pay someone to feed the machines? (I thought automation was the thing they were doing so well) Those jobs don't have to be done in China. The first jobs sent to China didn't have to go there. 'They' sold our nation out, the investor class, yearning for more profit. DEMANDING more profit, letting nothing stand in their way. *sigh*
[doublepost=1564660148][/doublepost]

Assembling is not 'manufacturing'.
Actually “manufacture” and “assembly” are synonyms but I largely agree with your sentiment. I also think Apple is incredibly unwise to depend so exclusively on Chinese labor.
[doublepost=1564669868][/doublepost]
Not at the wages Apple is willing to pay - that's the main reason for Chinese assembly contracts. Until the worldwide labor market equalizes, that will continue to be the case. As expensive as Apple products are right now, that would pale compared to prices U.S. assembly would entail - at least for now.
And yet Apple was willing to spend billions to build Apple HQ using largely US labor. Obviously Apple could afford to build facilities. Chinese technically skilled labor on the other hand is NOT so inexpensive anymore.

Lastly, as much as I hate to say it, China is not “friends” with anyone. They have not abided the terms of WTO entry and have benefitted immensely from WTO membership. The tariffs are absolutely necessary to offset those unfair advantages and force China to operate under terms that they agreed to follow. In other words, no more forced IP transfer, fair market economy, ending state subsidies of Chinese companies, and most basic of all: rule of law. This cheating was tolerated far too long and the Chinese know it but do not want to play on an even field.
 
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Rocketman

macrumors 603
Trump doesn't hate globalization so much as he hates unfair trade which we certainly have with China, India, Brazil, Mexico and others. If China were to agree to and adhere with, verifiable steps, reductions in unfair tarriffs, blatent IP theft, non compliant ownership requirements and process disclosures in clear violation of WTO, then we can talk. In the mean time tarriff the crap out of them. He only threatened tarriffs on Mexico, got what he wanted, and we went back to business as usual with some improvements to immigration policies. That took 2 weeks and narry a tarriff was ever paid.
 
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