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dmstasinos

macrumors member
Oct 29, 2019
81
99
If it's not happening when using external reference monitors (speakers for mixing audio) then it's not a problem for pros. That's something the article does not mention. Probably related to the internal sound card driver.

Guys, please stop using this argument. I am a pro user. Of course i have an expensive external audio interface and a couple of calibrated studio monitors. But i didn't purchase a high end laptop to bring all those goodies with me everywhere i go. It may seem strange to you but many tasks can be done using the onboard speakers such as music arrangement and audio editing, as long as they don't pop though...

So it's not that we expected these speakers to sound like heaven at all. I am using Apple computers for over 10 years now and what makes me nervous at this time is that many issues stay unresolved lately. Really, i have a bloody list on my desktop. This particular issue may be fixed this month because it gained some attention but believe me, i remember these things coming out of the factory with no issues at all.

Mass production and decent quality control don't necessarily cancel each other. What kills decent QC is the consumer's tolerance to issues like this, not mass production.

Considering as a "fact" that it's impossible for Apple to create a 3000$ laptop without problems is what makes you the perfect customer for them. The one who is always paying without complaining.
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Lets hope Apple will provide this fix for Mojave as well and will not force the users to run Catalina

Yep. This is indeed critical. Catalina is still fresh so many pro apps are not compatible yet.
 

Vjosullivan

macrumors 65816
Oct 21, 2013
1,188
1,436
Apple releases a universally acclaimed new MacBook Pro with a huge battery, massive performance boost, radically improved keyboard, and surprise surprise, some people are still not happy.
Indeed. Some people easily pleased. Some people expect everything to work properly.
 
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Baymowe335

Suspended
Oct 6, 2017
6,640
12,451
Well that explains a lot, you don't read any challenging posts, you just blindly post your allegiance.

I have stated MULTIPLE times in response to you and have it in my signature that I have replaced the keyboard in my 2017 15" mbp twice already. My laptop gets rather light, office type use and I do not eat over it!

You are FAR from objective, all you do is repeatedly ask "how many were affected?" when you know that no one can answer this as Apple does not release that information, then you proceed to take everyones individual account of failures and attempt to discredit them as "anecdotal" or tell us to stop eating over our keyboards as if this poor design was our fault.

Your entire argument seems to be based on x minus 1, where x equals the number of failures you personally would deem "defective" and where you personally believe that the actual number of failures is at least 1 less than that so you can claim "its no big deal" and those of us that have experienced failures are overreacting.

Apple created the Keyboard Service Program knowing full well that these keyboards are DEFECTIVE, again this is defined as: having a defect or flaw : imperfect in form, structure or function.

Any objective person could conclude that Apple feels the butterfly keyboard is defective because they extend a warranty program that is FOUR TIMES their normal warranty on this part. Including every single one they use as replacements.

READING IS FUNDAMENTAL! You should try it.
You are having difficulty seeing the big picture because of your experience bias.

This is simple. Big issue, they fix them all with a redesign. Manageable issue, they don't.

They didn't rush to change the design, still sell them, and take care of the small number of customers with a repair program.
 

icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,511
9,399
You are having difficulty seeing the big picture because of your experience bias.

I am not having trouble seeing anything, the keyboard is defective, simple as that, it is a reasonable description for this situation.

Defective: having a defect or flaw : imperfect in form, structure or function.

What part of this do you not understand? The butterfly keyboard has a flaw in its design, it does not function to the standards by which it was designed. Unless of course you believe that Apple specifically designed it with a larger fail rate in mind?

Apple TRIED to fix it with redesigns and failed, I believe the latest revision in the 2019s is the 3rd gen of the butterfly but even this glorious revision is still covered under the Keyboard Service Plan for 4 whole years.

How much faith does Apple have in the latest revision if it is covered in the program?
 
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groove-agent

macrumors 68000
Jan 13, 2006
1,864
1,688
is this the same problem reported by MBP 15" users within the last couple years? Didn't they have an audio popping issue?

I haven't noticed any problem with my 16" yet. I"m quite happy with it so far.
 

TheShadowKnows!

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2014
861
1,739
National Capital Region
Still waiting for Catalina to fix the mail app.

But now Apple unveils instead the lovely trio:
Snap, Crackle and Pop.

1575746105226.png
 
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PickUrPoison

macrumors G3
Sep 12, 2017
8,131
10,720
Sunnyvale, CA
You are having difficulty seeing the big picture because of your experience bias.

This is simple. Big issue, they fix them all with a redesign. Manageable issue, they don't.

They didn't rush to change the design, still sell them, and take care of the small number of customers with a repair program.
AppleInsider has been tracking the keyboard issue for years, and has actual stats collected from both Apple Stores (a few) but mostly authorized service centers. If someone cares to search they can find the data. But it basically boiled down to yes, there were more keyboard related problems in the earlier years but by 2018 the failure rate was no higher than the previous keyboard.

Overall failure rates for the new platform were lower than the pre-2016 models, but of those that were presented for repair, keyboard failures were more likely to be the reason for needing service. The 2018 model data is relatively new, but the general consensus is that the latest fix was rather effective.

But the reputation of MBP did suffer, to the point that Apple has continued offering the longer keyboard warranty. That offsets any hesitancy on the part of buyers of the butterfly keyboard machines, which very likely account for 80%+ of laptops sold. If the 2018 keyboard continues performing well long term, Apple is likely to drop the extra coverage sometime next year but who knows; if the keyboard is now reliable, the extra warranty really doesn’t cost them much.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Apple continue using the butterfly keyboard on the Air and more likely than not, the 13” MBP as well.
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I am not having trouble seeing anything, the keyboard is defective, simple as that, it is a reasonable description for this situation.

Defective: having a defect or flaw : imperfect in form, structure or function.

What part of this do you not understand? The butterfly keyboard has a flaw in its design, it does not function to the standards by which it was designed. Unless of course you believe that Apple knew it would fail at a higher than standard rate?

Apple TRIED to fix it with redesigns and failed, I believe the latest revision in the 2019s is the 3rd gen of the butterfly but even this glorious revision is still covered under the Keyboard Service Plan for 4 whole years.

How much faith does Apple have in the latest revision if it is covered in the program?
It seems like what you aren’t willing to acknowledge is the actual failure rate is nowhere near what some around here think. It’s likely in the 10-15% range.

As the class action proceeds through discovery, we’ll find out the actual numbers, but according to Apple the “vast majority” of users are happy with the keyboard.
 
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Baymowe335

Suspended
Oct 6, 2017
6,640
12,451
I am not having trouble seeing anything, the keyboard is defective, simple as that, it is a reasonable description for this situation.

Defective: having a defect or flaw : imperfect in form, structure or function.

What part of this do you not understand? The butterfly keyboard has a flaw in its design, it does not function to the standards by which it was designed. Unless of course you believe that Apple specifically designed it with a larger fail rate in mind?

Apple TRIED to fix it with redesigns and failed, I believe the latest revision in the 2019s is the 3rd gen of the butterfly but even this glorious revision is still covered under the Keyboard Service Plan for 4 whole years.

How much faith does Apple have in the latest revision if it is covered in the program?
Nothing is going to be perfect when you ship that many units. Get over it. Parts fail in cars all the time. That doesn't mean the part has a design flaw or is defective in general. It means the single anecdotal case had a failure and other have the same failure at some rate. We don't know the rate.

If 90% of the people are happy, it makes sense Apple would just manage the situation. Maybe they'd rather have 95% be happy, but it certainly didn't require them to pull the keyboard.

Evidence: They didn't pull the keyboard and still haven't despite selling perhaps 75M MacBooks with that keyboard. They'll eventually phase it out and hope for better performance. However, the performance was evidently at least manageable and still is for the last 4 years.

You're hugely biased because you're upset.
 
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Baymowe335

Suspended
Oct 6, 2017
6,640
12,451
AppleInsider has been tracking the keyboard issue for years, and has actual stats collected from both Apple Stores (a few) but mostly authorized service centers. If someone cares to search they can find the data. But it basically boiled down to yes, there were more keyboard related problems in the earlier years but by 2018 the failure rate was no higher than the previous keyboard.

Overall failure rates for the new platform were lower than the pre-2016 models, but of those that were presented for repair, keyboard failures were more likely to be the reason for needing service. The 2018 model data is relatively new, but the general consensus is that the latest fix was rather effective.

But the reputation of MBP did suffer, to the point that Apple has continued offering the longer keyboard warranty. That offsets any hesitancy on the part of buyers of the butterfly keyboard machines, which very likely account for 80%+ of laptops sold. If the 2018 keyboard continues performing well long term, Apple is likely to drop the extra coverage sometime next year but who knows; if the keyboard is now reliable, the extra warranty really doesn’t cost them much.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Apple continue using the butterfly keyboard on the Air and more likely than not, the 13” MBP as well.
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It seems like what you aren’t willing to acknowledge is the actual failure rate is nowhere near what some around here think. It’s likely in the 10-15% range.

As the class action proceeds through discovery, we’ll find out the actual numbers, but according to Apple the “vast majority” of users are happy with the keyboard.
Get out of here with the voice of reason! We need pitchforks and calls for executive firings! Quality control is dead at Apple!
 
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flygbuss

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2018
727
1,262
Stockholm, Sweden
Guys, please stop using this argument. I am a pro user. Of course i have an expensive external audio interface and a couple of calibrated studio monitors. But i didn't purchase a high end laptop to bring all those goodies with me everywhere i go. It may seem strange to you but many tasks can be done using the onboard speakers such as music arrangement and audio editing, as long as they don't pop though...

So it's not that we expected these speakers to sound like heaven at all. I am using Apple computers for over 10 years now and what makes me nervous at this time is that many issues stay unresolved lately. Really, i have a bloody list on my desktop. This particular issue may be fixed this month because it gained some attention but believe me, i remember these things coming out of the factory with no issues at all.

Mass production and decent quality control don't necessarily cancel each other. What kills decent QC is the consumer's tolerance to issues like this, not mass production.

Considering as a "fact" that it's impossible for Apple to create a 3000$ laptop without problems is what makes you the perfect customer for them. The one who is always paying without complaining.
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Yep. This is indeed critical. Catalina is still fresh so many pro apps are not compatible yet.

Sorry, still not buying it.
Whenever I have to work mobile, I always use headphones. I couldn't tell s*** with only the speakers, especially when it comes to audio editing.

Just to be clear, they advertised the new speakers as room-filling and natural sounding (they sound indeed great). So of course they should work out of the box, just as promised and without any disturbing noise.
But I'm confident they'll fix it soon.
I refuse to believe that this popping sound issue is turning the pro audio community upside down.
Is it annoying? Apparently. Will it rob you of your powers as an audio engineer? Certainly not.
 
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turbineseaplane

macrumors G5
Mar 19, 2008
14,681
31,260
So of course (the speakers) should work out of the box..

And that's really all that matters here..
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Just to be clear, they advertised the new speakers as room-filling and natural sounding (they sound indeed great).

They are fine. A nice evolution, but not nearly as amazing as podcasts and reviewers would have one believe.

I almost did a triple check to make sure I was truly on an a new model at both Apple & BestBuy when demoing the speakers. (of course I was - keyboard is unmistakeable)
 

flygbuss

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2018
727
1,262
Stockholm, Sweden
And that's really all that matters here..
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Agreed and I'm certain it'll be taken care of. It's just not such a big thing some here claimed it would be. Especially not for everyone who works in pro audio.

They are fine. A nice evolution, but not nearly as amazing as podcasts and reviewers would have one believe.


I almost did a triple check to make sure I was truly on an a new model at both Apple & BestBuy when demoing the speakers. (of course I was - keyboard is unmistakeable)

Compared to my 2012 MBP it's a big difference. But as mentioned before, nothing I would consider working with.
 

icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,511
9,399
Nothing is going to be perfect when you ship that many units. Get over it. Parts fail in cars all the time. That doesn't mean the part has a design flaw or is defective in general. It means the single anecdotal case had a failure.

You're hugely biased because you're upset.

WOW!

You state the obvious, parts do in fact fail, all the time. However, SOME fail at a higher rate than what is considered the norm and the butterfly keyboards fit this description. I'm typing on one right now, unlike some I don't mind its feel and generally enjoy the experience but facts are they fail at a greater than average rate, GET OVER IT!

Apple would not have implemented the Keyboard Service Program unless the butterfly keyboards were failing at a greater than average rate, simple as that, GET OVER IT!

Are you seriously going to imply that my keyboard is the SINGLE failure? How many single anecdotal failures do you need to hear about before you will acknowledge a greater than average failure rate? Apple acknowledged this, why can't you?

I am not upset at all, I like Apple products, I own many of them, I am disappointed that this keyboard didn't live up to expectations that I have for Apple products and that I was unlucky enough to experience 2 failures. We already know you do not actually read posts that challenge your blind allegiance but if you read my initial post in the keyboard thread it stated:

I am very happy for those that like the butterfly and never had a problem but please stop making those of us who have experienced failures out to be drama queens.

Continuing to deny that the butterfly keyboards fail at a higher than average rate is ridiculous, again if it didn't fail at a higher than average rate Apple would never have created the Keyboard Service Program. I am very sure some users have experienced screen failures... does Apple have a 4 year Screen Service Program for every single Macbook/MacBook Air/MacBook Pro??? No they don't, why don't they? Because the screens fail at an expected, average rate. GET OVER IT!
 

covedrop

macrumors member
Nov 16, 2019
51
52
I'm not sure I'm understanding the purpose of the argument regarding whether or not this issue is important depending on whether or not it affects pro-level users.

Although I understand the sentiment in that that is certainly their target audience with the MBP, it's naive to suggest that a defective product should be left defective because a subset of the userbase doesn't use the product in a way that presents the issue. Apple products, for good reason (although arguably recently there's been a dip in consistency), are respected and touted as quality pieces of hardware. It "just works" if I remember correctly. It shouldn't require pro-level users being affected to determine whether or not the issue is important enough to fix -- if the speakers are popping for a large enough userbase, it's an issue that needs to be fixed.

Obviously everything is going to have it's issues and nothing is perfect. Some initial issues require some patience, and I think the biggest weight on Apple here is the trust that they're going to fix it with as much transparency as they can allow us. All people should be mature enough to understand this -- however it's still important to bring up the apparent or disruptive issues that take away from the overall (even perceived!) experience of such a product. No one should spend over $3000 on a laptop and have to "deal" with popping when skipping YouTube. Particularly when that is what is most likely going to present the case even for pros (in a hotel room, etc). It's a quality defect which it is now apparent affects enough users that it should be expected to be fixed.

People shouldn't be running around as a prophet of Apple's demise as a result of it -- I mean, just let them get their energy out and move on. However that doesn't mean that the issue is still not there. I mix and produce with either monitors or headphones, so it doesn't affect me in that sense, but when I'm using my MBP more casually off the desk (netflix, youtube) I don't want to have to use headphones to avoid a popping sound (which could potentially be damaging the speakers over a long enough period of time -- I'm not sure about the physical engineering of the hardware so take that statement with a grain of salt).

I didn't return the product (I exchanged my first one though before we had more conclusive understanding of the issue) because it's a great product otherwise. It doesn't mean I still don't enjoy Apple products, and it doesn't mean I think future Apple products are worthless garbage. I still expect that my speakers don't pop though, because I spent a lot of money expecting a high-end product. And it is, don't get me wrong -- but the expectation of proper function is still there even if I'm not experiencing it in my daily use. Just knowing it's there can affect how I feel about the purchase.

All that being said, we should also remember that everyone has different limits and levels of patience so we need to look at these issues objectively - do the speakers work properly? It seems not. So therefore whether or not it matters to one or another is irrelevant when we're talking about the product and the product only.

</opinion>
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors G5
Mar 19, 2008
14,681
31,260
Apple products, for good reason (although arguably recently there's been a dip in consistency), are respected and touted as quality pieces of hardware. It "just works" if I remember correctly.

Honestly - "it just works" hasn't really been true for many years now.
 
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nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,324
6,995
Midwest USA
No big deal if it’s software issue and can be remedied quickly. Now if it is a hardware, well, it’s a disappointment.

The problem is that we will never know. Even a hardware problem can be band-aid'ed over with software with an aggressive filter or something, causing less than desired audio. Apple will never admit to a hardware problem. Thats the new Apple.
 

PickUrPoison

macrumors G3
Sep 12, 2017
8,131
10,720
Sunnyvale, CA
I'm not sure I'm understanding the purpose of the argument regarding whether or not this issue is important depending on whether or not it affects pro-level users.

Although I understand the sentiment in that that is certainly their target audience with the MBP, it's naive to suggest that a defective product should be left defective because a subset of the userbase doesn't use the product in a way that presents the issue. Apple products, for good reason (although arguably recently there's been a dip in consistency), are respected and touted as quality pieces of hardware. It "just works" if I remember correctly. It shouldn't require pro-level users being affected to determine whether or not the issue is important enough to fix -- if the speakers are popping for a large enough userbase, it's an issue that needs to be fixed.

Obviously everything is going to have it's issues and nothing is perfect. Some initial issues require some patience, and I think the biggest weight on Apple here is the trust that they're going to fix it with as much transparency as they can allow us. All people should be mature enough to understand this -- however it's still important to bring up the apparent or disruptive issues that take away from the overall (even perceived!) experience of such a product. No one should spend over $3000 on a laptop and have to "deal" with popping when skipping YouTube. Particularly when that is what is most likely going to present the case even for pros (in a hotel room, etc). It's a quality defect which it is now apparent affects enough users that it should be expected to be fixed.

People shouldn't be running around as a prophet of Apple's demise as a result of it -- I mean, just let them get their energy out and move on. However that doesn't mean that the issue is still not there. I mix and produce with either monitors or headphones, so it doesn't affect me in that sense, but when I'm using my MBP more casually off the desk (netflix, youtube) I don't want to have to use headphones to avoid a popping sound (which could potentially be damaging the speakers over a long enough period of time -- I'm not sure about the physical engineering of the hardware so take that statement with a grain of salt).

I didn't return the product (I exchanged my first one though before we had more conclusive understanding of the issue) because it's a great product otherwise. It doesn't mean I still don't enjoy Apple products, and it doesn't mean I think future Apple products are worthless garbage. I still expect that my speakers don't pop though, because I spent a lot of money expecting a high-end product. And it is, don't get me wrong -- but the expectation of proper function is still there even if I'm not experiencing it in my daily use. Just knowing it's there can affect how I feel about the purchase.

All that being said, we should also remember that everyone has different limits and levels of patience so we need to look at these issues objectively - do the speakers work properly? It seems not. So therefore whether or not it matters to one or another is irrelevant when we're talking about the product and the product only.

</opinion>
No one is saying it should be left defective. Far from it.

In fact, it’s been reportedly fixed in Catalina beta 4. Interesting that so few have posted to confirm this, you’d think there would be dozens or hundreds of reports here by now. In this and the main thread about the popping issue in the MacBook Pro forum, there are all of three or four.
 
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turbineseaplane

macrumors G5
Mar 19, 2008
14,681
31,260
In fact, it’s been reportedly fixed in Catalina beta 4. Interesting that so few have posted to confirm this, you’d think there would be dozens or hundreds of reports here by now.

Perhaps you're overestimating a users desire to run beta versions of this buggy nightmare that is the Catalina software?

(particularly if they need to get work done)
 

PickUrPoison

macrumors G3
Sep 12, 2017
8,131
10,720
Sunnyvale, CA
Perhaps you're overestimating a users desire to run beta versions of this buggy nightmare that is the Catalina software?

(particularly if they need to get work done)
Sure. Pretty sure I could carve out 1/2 hour from my busy posting schedule though. ymmv

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,511
9,399
If I might ask you... do you think it reasonable to declare the butterfly keyboard as defective as per this definition: Defective: having a defect or flaw : imperfect in form, structure or function. I find it rather obvious that Apple feels like it is as they created the Keyboard Service Program. I am not saying and have never said that the butterfly is a 100% fail, only that it fails at a higher than expected rate. Pretty reasonable assertion don't you think?
 
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Konigi

macrumors 6502
Jan 24, 2017
439
762
Montréal, Québec
I also experience weird, annoying pop sounds when playing sounds from multiple sources at the same time, on my MacBook Pro 13'' 2019. I hope they can fix it through software update.
 

djbuddha

macrumors 6502
Aug 7, 2011
387
424
You are joking right?! Do some research! It is a serious issue for pro audio/video people. SMH

Does this behaviour occur with an external sound card? I don’t consider myself a pro necessarily.. but I think pros aren’t relying on on-board audio to complete work. I use a Focusrite Scarlett and would be interested to know if Thunderbolt or USB interfaces are affected.
 
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citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,831
25,671
Get out of here with the voice of reason! We need pitchforks and calls for executive firings! Quality control is dead at Apple!

For sure... And a super big helping of aggrandized anger to go with it is always a nice touch. Lets people know one means business. The sad state of the internet today.

Going on year three with my 2017 MBP. Zero issues, a joy to use. And I like the keyboard - increased accuracy and typing speed.
 
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