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Marshall73

macrumors 68030
Apr 20, 2015
2,676
2,773
How many people have died in the past 50 years due to accidents at nuclear plants vs. car accidents?

‘that’s not the issue with current nuclear reactors, the issue is mountains of waste that has to be stored for 10’s of thousands of years. One ****up and it’s in the water table, atmosphere, food chain. Then we are all screwed. Mind you the plastic pollution issue is already potentially responsible for dropping fertility rates and other diseases as we are ingesting plastics daily in our water supplies and food chain. Won’t be many humans left in a hundred years at this rate.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
that’s not the issue with current nuclear reactors, the issue is mountains of waste that has to be stored for 10’s of thousands of years.

I know this is often a fear people have of nuclear, and given what we're led to believe about nuclear waste.

But it's not true.

Interestingly enough. The entirety of the worlds nuclear waste could currently sit in a football field 3 sized 3 story building. A long LONG way from "Mountains"

The problem is cost. Dealing with Nuclear waste is prohibitively expensive. And getting nuclear up and running is also.

We've been running a few nuclear plants up in Ontario for a few decades now. Has allowed us to greatly reduce our emissions from electrical generation.

1569362328674.png
 

Marshall73

macrumors 68030
Apr 20, 2015
2,676
2,773
I know this is often a fear people have of nuclear, and given what we're led to believe about nuclear waste.

But it's not true.

Interestingly enough. The entirety of the worlds nuclear waste could currently sit in a football field 3 sized 3 story building. A long LONG way from "Mountains"

The problem is cost. Dealing with Nuclear waste is prohibitively expensive. And getting nuclear up and running is also.

We've been running a few nuclear plants up in Ontario for a few decades now. Has allowed us to greatly reduce our emissions from electrical generation.

View attachment 863233

but you are advocating building more reactors, producing more waste, requiring more storage. It’s not like the waste goes away or is a fixed amount, it’s going to pile up. You also can’t store it in one place all piled up as the containers break down over time due to being bombarded by particles. The more densely stored the quicker this happens so waste has to be spread out in multiple chambers.

ideally more research into alternate fuels which can be reprocessed and or fuel with a far shorter half life would solve this.
 

jjudson

macrumors 6502a
Sep 20, 2017
713
1,535
North Carolina

In most cases, the turbines become derelict.

The cost of tearing down a single turbine can be as much as $200,000. Energy companies -- contrary to popular belief -- run on razor thin margins. $200K per unit spread across a large number of turbines can add up quite quickly. And while the 14,000 number of derelict wind turbines has been pretty much debunked, the actual number of approximately 2,000 inactive turbines is most definitely promised to rise as the fleet becomes more aged and costly to maintain. Over time, the currently 50,000 turbines operating in the United States will need to be decommissioned. The cost of that to energy companies can be $10 billion. Add to this the trend of deregulation, and it becomes a much easier decision for a power company to merely leave them in place and become derelict.
 
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LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
but you are advocating building more reactors, producing more waste, requiring more storage. It’s not like the waste goes away or is a fixed amount, it’s going to pile up. You also can’t store it in one place all piled up as the containers break down over time due to being bombarded by particles. The more densely stored the quicker this happens so waste has to be spread out in multiple chambers.

ideally more research into alternate fuels which can be reprocessed and or fuel with a far shorter half life would solve this.

Yes, I don't discount that we shouldn't just say "nuclear" as if it's the whole answer. it is not. But much of the fears people have are overblown.
 

cfurlin

Suspended
Jun 14, 2011
396
770
I’d rather they spent their money helping to combat habitat loss and restoring habitat. Who cares about providing more power so people can use more pointless devices to access more pointless services. We have done enough to ruin the planet for other species. It’s our turn to feel the pain.
 
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Raid

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2003
2,155
4,588
Toronto
Disappointed they are funding wind...wish they were investing in solar. Wind is never going to get us far but solar may provide for all but caseload within the near future (20-50 years in power plant terms).
Wind found us the new world, pumped water for farms and irrigation and powered mills be fore the industrial revolution. But yes, wind turbines are only one source of 'green' energy. We (as a species) should do our best to explore all possibilities that meet our energy needs and minimally impact the environment.

Besides all mentioned before the shadow cast by the blades produces flicker, it’s really not fun.
Shadow flicker? Really? Maybe if some how a turbine cast a shadow on ones home it would be a short while before the shadow moved. :rolleyes: Calculations on that are possible with this helpful tool.

and then they are not only bird shredders but even more insect shredders. Studies have shown they disturb very important high altitude flight paths of insects and kill tons of them.
Please provide a source (like I have above) to back up this claim. Numbers would be appreciated.
 

travelsheep

macrumors 6502a
May 30, 2013
918
1,057
I'd argue that there is a difference between death by food consumption and death by a wind turbine.

In meat production up to 20-30 percent go to the bin (unsold, expired, or failed QC), which is worse than just killed and dropped, because of all the (wasted) processing steps in between. Google the facts and enjoy the high.
 

hellopupy

macrumors 6502
Sep 8, 2016
334
359
Los Angeles
Geothermal would be nice...

Wind is ok but I'm skeptical as its very UN-green to produce and dispose of.

Some new solar tech options could be feasible but its not very efficient and "green" today.

All of the money these companies have been throwing at solar panels/wind mills for the last 20 years should've been privately invested in research to propel the technology. B
 

Marekul

Suspended
Jan 2, 2018
376
638
Wind found us the new world, pumped water for farms and irrigation and powered mills be fore the industrial revolution. But yes, wind turbines are only one source of 'green' energy. We (as a species) should do our best to explore all possibilities that meet our energy needs and minimally impact the environment.

Shadow flicker? Really? Maybe if some how a turbine cast a shadow on ones home it would be a short while before the shadow moved. :rolleyes: Calculations on that are possible with this helpful tool.

Please provide a source (like I have above) to back up this claim. Numbers would be appreciated.

About the shadow issue there is plenty of literature online.
In german it is law that a wind turbine must not cast shadows on residential areas for more than 30minutes a day. With large wind turbines they have to account for shadows up to 1000m away...


German wiki



Study by the german aerospace center:
Interference of Flying Insects and Wind Parks (FliWip) – Study Report, October 2018
 
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Raid

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2003
2,155
4,588
Toronto
About the shadow issue there is plenty of literature online.
In german it is law that a wind turbine must not cast shadows on residential areas for more than 30minutes a day. With large wind turbines they have to account for shadows up to 1000m away...
Good so before a wind turbine goes up they can figure out if and when a turbine would cast a shadow on residential areas; which would also help significantly with any noise issue as well.


Study by the german aerospace center:
Interference of Flying Insects and Wind Parks (FliWip) – Study Report, October 2018
Now this is the kind of study I like! They go into detail of reported data (or assumptions there in) . The end result is a loss of 1,200 tons per year for all(?) the wind farms in Germany with an expected loss of 3,600 tons of insect biomass (if the flying insect population rebounded to previous levels). While it's clear that the loss of flying insects have increased year by year and the wind turbines contribute to that, the authors acknowledge it's only part of the problem:
The order of magnitude of insect losses caused by wind power generation has been quantified theoretically for the first time. Losses caused by insecticides, herbicides, monocultures, human transport, light contamination, climate change and urbanization have not been quantified yet. For this reason, it is impossible to say to what extent the different impacts are responsible for insect decline, or which impact is the most harmful one. In any case, all impacts on insect population probably add to each other.
So with all those factors combined which behaviours do we modify first? The 'low lying fruit' of the solution is the turbines, but chances are it's only a small part of the problem... and contribute to other insect killing causes (like the mentioned climate change).
 
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PracticalMac

macrumors 68030
Jan 22, 2009
2,857
5,242
Houston, TX
Please, don't give me that cats thing which is utter BS. of course 300,000 static wind turbines kill less than 700,000,000 cats. Also, that's like saying that violent crime is not a problem because it kills less than car accidents (and for cats birds are mainly food).

And no, it's not the coal industry that I am looking at. I am looking at Smithsonian, Audubon Society, NatGeo and so on, that is environmental friendly sources. It's a carnage.





We have 3 choices:
  1. Extinction of hundreds of species due to rapid climate change from more CO2 release
  2. Drastically reduce human power consumption (like AC set to 85 F, bike to places)
  3. Death of thousands of birds (which will largely be repopulated, faster with expanded nesting sites).
Yes, none are ideal but the first is completely unacceptable.
 

Raid

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2003
2,155
4,588
Toronto
We have 3 choices:
  1. Extinction of hundreds of species due to rapid climate change from more CO2 release
  2. Drastically reduce human power consumption (like AC set to 85 F, bike to places)
  3. Death of thousands of birds (which will largely be repopulated, faster with expanded nesting sites).
Yes, none are ideal but the first is completely unacceptable.
The turbine bird deaths are not even that bad (considering). I put up data here that showed expected bird loss is a maximum of 14 per year per turbine, and the study @Marekul posted noted an impact of on insect losses. To me both biosphere losses can be some what mitigated by selective control during migratory patterns... yet at the same time there are other deadly practices that continue on (probably of equal or greater impact to the biosphere loss) without much resistance.
 

PracticalMac

macrumors 68030
Jan 22, 2009
2,857
5,242
Houston, TX
The turbine bird deaths are not even that bad (considering). I put up data here that showed expected bird loss is a maximum of 14 per year per turbine, and the study @Marekul posted noted an impact of on insect losses. To me both biosphere losses can be some what mitigated by selective control during migratory patterns... yet at the same time there are other deadly practices that continue on (probably of equal or greater impact to the biosphere loss) without much resistance.

Of course.
Cars kill far more birds than turbines.
Air pollution is far more harmful to birds than humans (canary in coal mine)
Mining and drilling directly and indirectly kill thousands.

So it is easy to see the criticism is whitewashing the other destructive actions by energy section.
 
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