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LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
While I agree in principle, for a company, such as Apple, with a track record it's a pretty good overall long term indictor of performance. Prices don't swing widely and you can gauge performance by the trend in prices over time. Of course, past performance is no indicator of future results....
Sorry, Didn't mean to imply that it's not based on historical performance. it is. But it's a "future performance" value and not actual present day.

it's based on speculative assumption that trends will continue in the direction they were going.

But that's entirely the stock game :p and a lot of people get burned by choosing wrong
 

citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,854
25,742
Quite possibly, but of the thousands, possibly millions of companies that are going to buy it - most of them won’t even blink or notice. At the very least it won’t change their purchasing decisions.

When will you people understand that price is not a factor for the kinds of people/companies that need this kind of power?

Yes!

The Mac Pro currently lists at $6,000 for the base unit. Of which 38% of that ($2,280) represents Apple's very reasonable GPM. Apple's NPM is currently around 22%, after subtracting out operating and other expenses, taxes, and interest. The result is Apple's *net* profit.

When trump's 25% tariff (an additional expense to Apple), soon goes into effect, there's no way Apple will reduce their GPM to 13% and take a resulting loss on their NPM. Apple will kill the Mac Pro before letting that happen, as any company would.

Apple will simply raise the base unit list price to $8,000. Most customers who really need the Mac Pro for their business will simply pay the additional 25% tax trump has imposed. Leaving Apple with their $6,000 list price, 38% GPM, and 22% NPM. Life goes on.

And...many who hang out on tech forums like MR, most of whom are not potential customers Apple is targeting with the Mac Pro, will have a whine-fest of epic proportions.

More winning for everyone!
 
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DogHouseDub

macrumors 6502a
Sep 19, 2007
612
1,384
SF
Shall we venture to discuss whether Liz Warren would slap a tariff on Apple for moving the supply chain back to China? It might be fun to ask her. Don't forget Trump's actually closer to the Dems on trade than he is to free-traders in the GOP. Elizabeth Warren has said in the past that tariffs can play a role in a rethink of US trade policy and that she's not opposed to tariffs on countries that don't play by the rules.


One is a tenured professor of law and economics, the other is a game show host who has fleeced the US citizenry six times in bankruptcy court.

I would argue it's not just "fun" to ask her - she's the exactly the type expert we SHOULD be asking.
 
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macdragonfl

macrumors 6502a
Jan 11, 2006
581
305
Ft. Lauderdale,Fl
What does NAFTA have to do with China?
One of the original intentions of NAFTA was to move some manufacturing to Mexico and prop up their economy to reduce imigration. Instead some companies moved directly to China. Others also moved to Mexico first then moved to China. Both Bush and Clinton are responsible. Bush for NAFTA and Clinton for allowing China in the WTO. My point is that both Democrats and Republicans did this. Your post seems only to blame Clinton. The Congress of both parties also went along with both.
 
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stylinexpat

macrumors 68020
Mar 6, 2009
2,107
4,542
Yes!

The Mac Pro currently lists at $6,000 for the base unit. Of which 38% of that ($2,280) represents Apple's very reasonable GPM. Apple's NPM is currently around 22%, after subtracting out operating and other expenses, taxes, and interest. The result is Apple's *net* profit.

When trump's 25% tariff (an additional expense to Apple), soon goes into effect, there's no way Apple will reduce their GPM to 13% and take a resulting loss on their NPM. Apple will kill the Mac Pro before letting that happen, as any company would.

Apple will simply raise the base unit list price to $8,000. Most customers who really need the Mac Pro for their business will simply pay the additional 25% tax trump has imposed. Leaving Apple with their $6,000 list price, 38% GPM, and 22% NPM. Life goes on.

And...many who hang out on tech forums like MR, most of whom are not potential customers Apple is targeting with the Mac Pro, will have a whine-fest of epic proportions.

More winning for everyone!

$8K is way too much for a Mac Pro computer. We will see less people upgrading their computers down the road. Less people upgrading means sales and less means trouble down the road.
 
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citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,854
25,742
$8K is way too much for a Mac Pro computer. We will see less people upgrading their computers down the road. Less people upgrading means sales and less means trouble down the road.

Well, if that’s true, Apple will simply kill the Mac Pro if the trump tariff is imposed. There’s no way Apple will manufacture and sell a product at a net loss.

Winning...

Personally, I think there will be enough customers who will pay the $8K. As an aside, way back in the early 1990s my startup bought a couple of Mac IIfx computers (and a friend bought one for himself) at $9K. In today’s money that would be about $17K!
 
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pweicks

macrumors 6502
Dec 23, 2016
261
589
USA
You sound like you'd be a better judge of whether Trump would be the Rs' best option, rather than getting out there in the weeds on which Democrat might best be suited to take him on in 2020. Have you wondered whether some other actual Republican or conservative might suitably challenge Trump and serve Americans better than Trump with his MAGA schtick and erstwhile pandering to the top 1%? It crosses my mind once in a while.

LOL anyway my Warren t-shirt just landed on my back porch yesterday. I liked the colors and the slogan so I got one even though it's early days in the Dems' primary season and I'm liking to listen for awhile longer to all the ideas. Always wise to finish the brainstorming sessions before starting to winnow for feasibility and political will to implement... but I liked that shirt so I got one.

I didn't expect the t-shirt to show up for about a week and a half. It only took three days. Anyway her t-shirt says Warren "has a plan for that". Interestingly, the shirt was made in the USA by union workers. Maybe she really does have a plan for this, that and who knows what else for America. Her campaign offices sure executed well on the ship-t-shirt plan. :)

Shall we venture to discuss whether Liz Warren would slap a tariff on Apple for moving the supply chain back to China? It might be fun to ask her. Don't forget Trump's actually closer to the Dems on trade than he is to free-traders in the GOP. Elizabeth Warren has said in the past that tariffs can play a role in a rethink of US trade policy and that she's not opposed to tariffs on countries that don't play by the rules.

But see the main difference between Trump and someone like Warren is that he figures tariffs are sort of a tool for conduct of his brand of irregular warfare when some corporation or another head of state has done something to tick him off... whereas Warren's talking rationally about tariffs being deployed along lines of WTO stipulations where they can be a measure applied in event of product dumping shown to cause economic harm, etc.

Look at Trump threatening now to slap a tariff on French wine (again) over a potential digital tax on US tech companies (the same outfits Trump has criticized and threatened to sue, even while criticizing the EU for bringing antitrust suits against those same US tech companies). Go figure. The man is all over the place on tariffs. On again, off again, trust me this time you'll feel the lash!

Tariffs are Trump's equivalent of, as Francis Urquhart used to say in the British version of House of Cards, "putting a bit of stick about". It would not surprise me to discover that there are corporations that would rather deal with someone like Warren who proposes to use tariffs more as already outlined in the WTO agreement, i.e., reasonable in certain circumstances.

Why should anyone be surprised if Tim Cook pays no mind to Trump's tariff threat and goes about the MacPro production and supply chain management as per Apple's best take on the proper course of action for the company? One cannot count on Trump to stick to a plan from one day to the next lately. A publicly traded company is responsible to its shareholders and consumers and so must make decisions now about events months and years down the road. There's no percentage in trying to adapt one's business model to the rantings of a guy like Trump who'll be ranting about something else tomorrow. As others have noted, the tariff's probably already figured into MacPro pricing; it would be the prudent thing to assume.
You’re basing your favor off of who’s campaign shirts are made in America and how speedily they expedited their shirt to you? Lawlz. That’s how the socialists hook their fish. Make themselves look like the good guys by expediting your campaign shirt to your porch and then after they’re voted in you’re paying 70% taxes. You lost all your credibility with that one sounds like we got an emotionally driven liberal here. Also the fact that you support someone who wants to decriminalize illegal immigration, excuse student debt and give free healthcare to all? Yeah you really lost it on that one. What about those of us who actually worked and paid off our debts, Pocahontas? Ya gonna reimburse us for all the money that we had to pay? How ya gonna do it? Oh yeah, be taxing the middle class to death, literally. Then you’re gonna give illegal aliens free healthcare whilst we got Americans rotting on the streets (and primarily in socialist cities)? Yeah, nice dude. People just don’t get it. Ya either let businesses be businesses, or ya try to play the hero like the insane socialists do and kill off the very people complaining about unfairness (middle-class) in the first place. “Impoverish them all,” says the socialist. Don’t give them a chance to work their way up in the world based off their own industry. Also, it’s good we finally got a president with the balls to stand up to China. If we didn’t we’d all be speaking Chinese within the next decade. The tariffs were a necessary evil. I know that they can hurt the people, but China can hurt the people a lot more with their unfair trade and theft. China is listening now and they are negotiating with America, something that lefties don’t like to mention. Also, consider the fact that Trump was able to leverage those tariffs to get stuff done. We obviously have a VERY powerful economy right now to be able to take the hit on tariffs and STILL have the highest GDP we’ve ever had in history. I mercifully will not mention all the other economical statistics that make people like you go red in the face every time you hear them.
 

LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
6,766
36,273
Catskill Mountains
$8K is way too much for a Mac Pro computer. We will see less people upgrading their computers down the road. Less people upgrading means sales and less means trouble down the road.

Still the machine is not one purchased by the average consumer. The market is different: smaller market yes but the user base does literally tend to be professional and so the manner of expensing the computer is also different. .

With any product --from a coffee mug on up through "luxury" items-- there are always some for whom an item is highly optional but also highly desirable, and so "up to a point" they'll pay the freight anyway.

In between jobs once, having totally misjudged how I'd like the new place and deciding to bail and take a break for six months, I was walking with a friend along Broadway in NYC and we stopped to look in a shop window where kitchen and dining wares were on display. I remarked I could use a new coffee mug and pointed at one I found attractive. My friend, a writer accustomed to boom and bust cycles in personal finance, instantly replied "Actually you only want the thing; if you really need what to drink coffee from, then an empty peanut butter jar works fine." Words of wisdom there.​

There could be all sorts of circumstances that put any item out of range, but when it's not viewed as a necessity (and one's view may change abruptly), the demand for it is more price sensitive.

Apple knows it has to figure price points carefully for a machine that professionals tend to rely on and some of the rest of us just like to have. It's entirely possible for them to discount the latter group's reaction somewhat in switching up a MacPro price since the bulk of their market for the thing is the professional users. Their focus will be on what's the higher price at which that market starts to drop off.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,476
4,261
Sorry, Didn't mean to imply that it's not based on historical performance. it is. But it's a "future performance" value and not actual present day.

it's based on speculative assumption that trends will continue in the direction they were going.

But that's entirely the stock game :p and a lot of people get burned by choosing wrong

No worries. I think we're in agreement on all points...
 
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LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
6,766
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Catskill Mountains
You lost all your credibility with that one sounds like we got an emotionally driven liberal forum member here.

Thanks for letting me fix that up a little and flip it around to use as the introduction to my reply. ;)

Listen to yourself, gee. Re-read my post when you regain your composure...

As others have said, Warren's well informed on the subject of tariffs and how they may usefully figure in trade policy.

Sorry if you think Trump really fits into the Republican view of how trade should work. He doesn't, and plenty in his party have so advised him (some on their way out of his administration since he won't hear advice he doesn't like).

Further, his use of tariffs or threats of tariff on American companies -- especially the ones that won't promise to do what he thinks will shore up his base for the next election-- has potential to backfire with the larger electorate from his own party and from indie voters he needs to ensure his re-election.

Trump is a cipher when it comes to his plans for down the road even if he lays them out for us all this afternoon. It's because his decision-taking doesn't stay in the done column. Companies --and the markets-- therefore have got accustomed to baking in various takes on the net effect of Trump's assorted "trade wars". Could they be wrong? Sure. But they can't just sit there flipping business plans around every couple days.

As noted before, publicly traded companies have fiduciary reponsibilities to their shareholders and to consumers and they have to thread the needle on how to meet those and still be compliant with local and international law as best they can. They cannot operate as Trump does, on a whim. So they make their long term plans based on their best take now on what's down the road a few years, even while minding their next quarter's figures. Surely that's what Apple has had to do in considering Trump's MacPro tariff.
 
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citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,854
25,742
We obviously have a VERY powerful economy right now to be able to take the hit on tariffs and STILL have the highest GDP we’ve ever had in history.

Going back to at least 1960 the GDP has always been higher than it was in previous years. In other words, it's the highest we've ever had in history. Except for 2009, when GWB left office after the devastating economic collapse and the GDP fell. Since then, after recovery in 2010, every year the GDP has increased and been "the highest we've ever had in history," as well.

In other words, the GDP being ""the highest we've ever had in history" is really not saying much.

A metric far more interesting is GDP growth. Currently GDP growth is pegged at 2.1%, far less than trump's promised 3%.
 
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pweicks

macrumors 6502
Dec 23, 2016
261
589
USA
Listen to yourself, gee. Re-read my post when you regain your composure...
Here’s my reply.
[doublepost=1564334292][/doublepost]
Going back to at least 1960 the GDP has always been higher than it was in previous years. In other words, it's the highest we've ever had in history. Except for 2009, when GWB left office after the devastating economic collapse and the GDP fell. Since then, every year the GDP has been "the highest we've ever had in history," as well.

In other words, the GDP being ""the highest we've ever had in history" is really not saying much.

A metric far more interesting is GDP growth. Currently GDP growth is pegged at 2.1%, far less than trump's promised 3%.
You’re the first source I’ve ever seen say that our growth was below 3%. Even never-trumpin CNN has coughed up figures over 3%.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,476
4,261
A metric far more interesting is GDP growth. Currently GDP growth is pegged at 2.1%, far less than trump's promised 3%.

And right around Obama's average; so the Trump economy is not much different that Obama's.

You’re the first source I’ve ever seen say that our growth was below 3%.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/26/business/economy/us-gdp-growth.html

Even never-trumpin CNN has coughed up figures over 3%.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/26/economy/gdp-q2/index.html

Facts. They matter.
 

pweicks

macrumors 6502
Dec 23, 2016
261
589
USA
And right around Obama's average; so the Trump economy is not much different that Obama's.

Facts don't care about opinions...
Have you looked at wage growth, inflation deceleration, unemployment? What bout tax cuts? Facts...
 

itr81

macrumors regular
Jul 12, 2010
230
52
Says the person that is so cheap, he wouldn’t buy a cheap file server for his resort to store his resorts logos for recently deployed VoIP phones. We had to resort to finding a free online photo storage service. If that free storage site ever goes down, so will all his background logos on every resort phone. A hacker could easily take over the free account and display anything they want on all of his resort phones and digital signage.
 

pweicks

macrumors 6502
Dec 23, 2016
261
589
USA

citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,854
25,742
You’re the first source I’ve ever seen say that our growth was below 3%. Even never-trumpin CNN has coughed up figures over 3%.

My source is the latest release from the US Bureau of Economic Analysis, an agency of the US Dept. of Commerce.

But my real point, except for the period when GWB left office in 2009, the GDP has always been "the highest we've ever had in history."

It's GDP growth that matters.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,476
4,261
Have you looked at wage growth, inflation deceleration, unemployment? What bout tax cuts? Facts...

Well, the unemployment rate change has been pretty much the same as Obama's post recession, as has the rate of wage growth; Inflation rates are higher than Obama's except for 2011 and finally just below 2102 by .1 after being significantly higher during Trumps first 3 years. Trump is enjoying the actions taken to end the Bush recession; as for tax cuts while they have benefited me greatly I do not think they are in the long term best interests of the country.
[doublepost=1564335063][/doublepost]
The whole article talks about how the job market is doing excellent, consumer spending is high, and the Dow and nasdaq just reached an all-time high. More facts.

From the tag line:

The G.D.P. report indicates that business investment, manufacturing and housing are struggling, but Americans are spending at a healthy clip.

In other words, the US consumer is on a spending spree but the fundamentals are troublesome.

And GDP annual growth rate of 2.1%; which you claimed no one has reported; including CNN which was why I pointed out where they had reported 2.1% as well.

As for the DOW, it's hit a new high consistently since at least 2010, and the rate of growth has been pretty constant. It's not like we've seen a hockey stick uptick.

Actually, a good economy may very well bode well for Democrats in the next election, as people's fears subside and other issues become more important the swing voters may just swing the other way.
 
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stylinexpat

macrumors 68020
Mar 6, 2009
2,107
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Going back to at least 1960 the GDP has always been higher than it was in previous years. In other words, it's the highest we've ever had in history. Except for 2009, when GWB left office after the devastating economic collapse and the GDP fell. Since then, after recovery in 2010, every year the GDP has increased and been "the highest we've ever had in history," as well.

In other words, the GDP being ""the highest we've ever had in history" is really not saying much.

A metric far more interesting is GDP growth. Currently GDP growth is pegged at 2.1%, far less than trump's promised 3%.

Let’s see what happens this week when Powell speaks. Apple also reports earnings this week. We will have to see how big of a hit Apple took this last quarter in China due to many Chinese Boycotting Apple products in China. Question will be if there were more people Boycotting or more people buying Apple products in China.
 

citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,854
25,742
Let’s see what happens this week when Powell speaks. Apple also reports earnings this week. We will have to see how big of a hit Apple took this last quarter in China due to many Chinese Boycotting Apple products in China. Question will be if there were more people Boycotting or more people buying Apple products in China.

I'm curious about that as well. I think the retribution and hit from more patriotic government encouraged boycotting in China will be significant, as it was in the previous quarter. The trade/tariff war imposed by trump is to blame.
 
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burgman

macrumors 68030
Sep 24, 2013
2,714
2,292
Such hypocrisy, so many shout buy made America while driving to Walmart and other stores that nothing is sold from America. They do it because they shop price first, well guess what companies don’t pay tarriffs.
 

nvmls

Suspended
Mar 31, 2011
1,941
5,219
Lol Tim thought Trump would run a country like he runs Apple, blowing smoke about innovation, dreamers, privacy, environment, human rights, all for the herd, but anyone with 2 fingers in their forehead could see all the shady stuff under the carpet, in other words, profit & stockholders above anything else, including mankind, happiness & environment.

Trump has balls Timmy, he'll never bite your hypocrisy.
 
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k1121j

Suspended
Mar 28, 2009
1,729
2,764
New Hampshire
it depends on which metrics used to determine wealth.

a lot of confusion has taken place over the relative size of Apple due to which metrics you want to attribute.

For example, in 2018, Apple was only 8th for revenues.

https://financesonline.com/top-10-richest-companies-in-the-world-in-2018-by-revenue/

by total assets, Apple was 6th.


where Apple was #1 is in Profit's themselves (total revenues minus costs) as Apple is one of the larger overall profit margins (around 23+%) of the major companies on those above lists.

Where confusion came in was last year when Apple's market cap was the highest of publicly traded companies. All market cap is is total cost to buy all outstanding shares. It is not a direct reflection of the actual companies performance (because stock is speculative).

And even though Apple was #1 by market cap, there are larger non-traded companies in the world.

While i understand what you are saying i don't see your need to disqualify the other members comment. Revenue is never a metric that should be used to measure a company's worth any company can have revenue and even be in the red not even making a profit. I do thank you for the info regarding your opinion i urge you to respect the opinion of others as well.
 

LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
6,766
36,273
Catskill Mountains
The whole article talks about how the job market is doing excellent, consumer spending is high, and the Dow and nasdaq just reached an all-time high. More facts.

More facts:

As I said earlier the focus of companies now with respect to reinvestment of their tax windfall is less on capital expenditures and more on short term prospects including meeting consumer demand while it lasts with more labor, which can be ramped up quickly and just as quickly dumped when that demand tanks.

Financial markets can turn on a dime and decide no asset class is worth keeping ten bucks in. First out the door get to brag on that later and the rest get to adjust their lifestyle to a new reality.​

Consumer debt is on the rise despite wage increases, and so are defaults on repayment. What's not on the rise is consumer finance protection rules. Mulvaney worked on knocking those down as much as possible before moving over to become Trump's chief of staff. So the squeeze is out there for consumers once the business cycle is inclined to head for the exit. They'll lose jobs but the debt they're racking up isn't going away.

We are approaching the natural end of the business cycle that was rebooted after the crash and Great Recession. That typically means, for example, a plateau followed by decline in single family housing starts. Which means fewer home construction jobs. Means less money for those workers to spend, less money for the stores they shopped in to pay clerks and cashiers, etc. and when they get laid off, that layoff trend accelerates.

I'm all for an economy that keeps chugging along but I'm not sure Trump's economic policies so far have underpinned that goal especially well. The uptick has been mostly due to the ongoing recovery after the crash plus the effects of a one-off (and unfunded) tax cut, with some but not much of it raising worker pay or increasing hires.

That extra part of our economy's improvement has been offset in part by uncertainty in the agricultural and manufacturing sectors over Trump's trade wars and the resulting impact on supply chains, reduced ability to export goods and the rising cost of imported goods. Then too there is the overhang of NAFTA's successor treaty in North America not having been ratified yet. And of course markets trying to bake in the net effect of an expected rate drop versus desire to exit markets that begin to look a little rich.

Facts are facts. But, they don't amount to tea leaves on whether a government headed by a Republican or Democrat is more likely to be just the ticket for managing the next business cycle.

The recently agreed budget speaks to both parties apparently figuring that more debt's not an issue (or at least agreeing no one wins when a government shutdown over a debt ceiling hike takes place). Both parties are probably looking to have some bragging rights about how they are responsible for whatever well-being for Americans can be wrung out of jacking up expenditures in this or that budget category... :D what else is new.
 
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