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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
A clean, desktop-like ~Desktop space that's kept away from iCloud Drive Desktop and Documents folders.

You can drag content, or files, from one space to another by 'edging over' the boundary between the two spaces.

Food for thought. (And a minor cosmetic bug, which someone might like to feed to Apple.)

preparing to drag from one space to another.png

two spaces.png

a desktop-like space.png

a cosmetic bug.png moving away from iCloud Drive, to part of an excluded ~Desktop folder.png

Postscript

In those screen shots, the path bar might be not easy to read.

The folder I gave as an example was:

~/~Desktop
 
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insomniac86

macrumors 6502a
Oct 13, 2015
604
905
Perth, Western Australia
Mornings, dears. I'd too easily dump data from Documents to desktop, dismiss dialogues about removals from iCloud Drive and all other devices, dip a Digestive in my morning cup of tea, drink up, time to dash, drive to work, get there, d'oh I didn't think to de-dump before I closed the front door at home, dunno what to do about that apart from drive back home, de-dump data from desktop to documents whilst being distracted by cats meowing 'cause they don't know that it's not yet dinnertime, drive back to work and begin doing wot should have been dun and dusted an hour earlier. Ta-da.

I do understand the wishes for user-preferable exclusions but I reckon that for the forthcoming initial release, Apple wants to keep things as close as possible to a level playing field for all users of the feature.

Early days. There'll surely be more than enough noise from (and around) people surprised by the behaviours when two or more Macs are introduced to the service. Throwing voluntary or enforced exclusions into the mix would amplify, complicate that noise.

D'oh I forgot to mention optimisation by … default.

Righteo, so anyway back to the discussion...
I agree, on initial release Apple won't introduce it with a tone of configuration options (full selective sync, file type exclusions, online/offline caching etc). But it's very easy to have the option.

Jesus lol, the options are....
Sync desktop to iCloud? (I'll leave that off thanks)... Sync documents to iCloud? Yup I'll tick that one it sounds good.

That's neither hard to program or for the end user to understand.

Time will tell, and this will be problem. Why? Because that's what people use desktops for and user habits take months/years to break.
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
I guess that a bigger picture – with new contexts for user-defined preferences and for enforced policies – will not become clear until after a first release of APFS (discussion), which I expect will allow more interesting things to be done with optimised storage (discussion) and if the latter will be done well, then I expect fewer users to be concerned about hierarchical file system approaches to deciding what should and should not be served by Apple.

In the meantime we have removal of FileSync support for portable home directories and I take that as a sign that Apple will increasingly encourage/push individuals, groups and enterprises towards Apple as a service provider.
 

insomniac86

macrumors 6502a
Oct 13, 2015
604
905
Perth, Western Australia
Righteo, so anyway back to the discussion...
I agree, on initial release Apple won't introduce it with a tone of configuration options (full selective sync, file type exclusions, online/offline caching etc). But it's very easy to have the option.

Jesus lol, the options are....
Sync desktop to iCloud? (I'll leave that off thanks)... Sync documents to iCloud? Yup I'll tick that one it sounds good.

That's neither hard to program or for the end user to understand.

Time will tell, and this will be problem. Why? Because that's what people use desktops for and user habits take months/years to break.

You're screenshots....

I know i can work around it. I can just make a symbolic link on the desktop to a "work in progress" folder out of the sync directory.

But i still feel you are missing the entire issue here. lol (Again can't see real world usage)

Lets try and break this down:
1. You have provided a method to get around a poor design choice. It's super easy to seperate the document & desktops sync options. There are no technical reasons getting in the way of implementing this. Both directories are at the same tree level and can simply be redirected to the mobile documents area where iCloud already syncs.

2. Why do people have to change their use of the "Desktop" which has been around for 20 years. Due to a poor oversight? Plenty of users don't understand shortcuts to folders, symbolic links etc and hence won't implement a work around.

3. Majority of users are still on the 5GB iCloud tier. Users that might read a news article on whats new in macOS Sierra will find out it can sync their desktops and docs. "Oh cool" some will say and turn it on. Only to find out the entire thing goes to **** when they fail to realise that they already have 15 GB of stuff on their desktop. Yes it's only $1.50 here in Australia to get 50GB of storage. But still it will catch a **** load of people out. Out of all the people that pay for iCloud storage, majority pay for the first tier and will still likely get burnt.

4. A desktop is a working area, hence it shouldn't be synced in realtime unless someone specifically enables it. On the flip side, majority of people would love their documents synced.

5. Syncing all their desktop stuff via the internet is going to be a PITA for internet bandwidth.
Why is the net going so dam slow dad? I don't know son... (Dad just dumped the contents of his 64GB SD card to his desktop).

The point of all this is Apple is meant to be "It just works"
This will introduce issues as most users won't understand why the hell all their storage is gone and why the their home Internet runs like ****.

Having the sync of Desktop and Documents tied to each other is just stupid.
What puzzles me is why on earth you are defending it?
[doublepost=1474212777][/doublepost]
I guess that a bigger picture – with new contexts for user-defined preferences and for enforced policies – will not become clear until after a first release of APFS (discussion), which I expect will allow more interesting things to be done with optimised storage (discussion) and if the latter will be done well, then I expect fewer users to be concerned about hierarchical file system approaches to deciding what should and should not be served by Apple.

In the meantime we have removal of FileSync support for portable home directories and I take that as a sign that Apple will increasingly encourage/push individuals, groups and enterprises towards Apple as a service provider.

Ahhhhh nice! this is the stuff to discuss (you've convinced me that you do understand more than you initially let on).
I see it moving this way too. (Well i really hope it does).

However, I still stand by my initial comment that i can't see why Desktop and Document sync should be tied to each other.

There were some acquisitions by Apple in the last couple of years that were toying with the idea of having a non-hierarchical (at least user present) file system in which data is displayed and navigated as relationships. I'm hoping that after the release of APFS, the next major OSX update will do away with finder as we know it. (Not quite the same vision as WinFS though If you also followed the Longhorn days.)

This year Apple did focus heavily on iOS, so lets home next year they focus heavily on macOS.
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… i still feel you are missing the entire issue here. lol (Again can't see real world usage) …

Heheh, I'm not missing it, I can and do see, I've been supporting Mac users and other users for twenty-something years, including a decade in a £ multi-million building that was purpose-built for …

… (you've convinced me that you do understand more than you initially let on …

Well, I rarely attempt to cover all possible points of view in every post … and to avoid repetition I habitually offer links but then linking leads to trouble :confused: for me but not for other writers who offer links, there's no pleasing some people … the least said about that the better … moving on, back to the Apple stuff …

… some acquisitions by Apple the last couple of years that were toying with the idea have a non-hierarchical (at least user present) file system in which data is displayed and navigated as relationships.

The Maya-Systems stuff, patents granted a couple of years ago? https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/18751041"file system may be a misnomer (I see the phrase nowhere in the patent)".

I'm hoping that after the release of APFS, the next major OSX update will do away with finder as we know it.

I doubt it :)
 

Apple Knowledge Navigator

macrumors 68040
Mar 28, 2010
3,534
11,803
It may sound like a long shot, but I imagine that Apple's objective is to, eventually, have options to sync other user directories within iCloud Drive (Pictures, Music, Movies). I say eventually because not everyone has the internet bandwidth to continually upload/download large files, but it could be their way of making Drive more attractive than other services.

If they do take this approach then I may then take Drive a bit more seriously. But as it stands, the biggest problem for myself is that it doesn't have the sharing features of Dropbox, which is important to my work. Not only that, but even if files sharing features were added, I'm guessing Apple would use some convoluted method that requires the recipient to have both an iCloud Drive account and to be logged in, etc.
 

insomniac86

macrumors 6502a
Oct 13, 2015
604
905
Perth, Western Australia
[doublepost=1474215712][/doublepost]
Heheh, I'm not missing it, I can and do see, I've been supporting Mac users and other users for twenty-something years, including a decade in a £ multi-million building that was purpose-built for …

Then you more than most people should identify with my points in the previous post being a reality that will screw a bunch of people around. That makes it a poor design choice. When again, so easily fixed. Basically what I'm hearing is, "I want a cloud music library, oh **** why are my photos also up their?" Well it's all or nothing son. Thats exactly the same as forcing me to have my desktop cloud enabled when all i want is my documents directly. Personally though, i currently just have a AppData and Documents folder in the root of iCloud drive. I just link to that and problem solved. But again, people aren't me. And heaps will turn it on with it all going to ****.

The Maya-Systems stuff, patents granted a couple of years ago? https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/18751041"file system may be a misnomer (I see the phrase nowhere in the patent)".

Hmm i don't think thats the one (though i can't say it wasn't). From memory it wasn't just patients but an entire company purchased....
A quick google search has lead me no where, but i'll have to dig deep at another time.
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
… a reality that will screw a bunch of people around. That makes it a poor design choice. When again, so easily fixed. …

Whatever is offered at the point of introduction to the masses, no matter how it's presented by Apple, some customers will perceive things to be screwy.

My differences in opinion here probably revolve around a belief that there could or should have been an easy/simple fix by Apple before tomorrow's release. That's not my belief.

OneDrive getting worse to get better in Windows 10 | Ars Technica (2014-11-15, referred from Dropbox will now show all your files locally without using any disk space | Ars Technica (2016-04-02)); this ought to be in the optimised storage topic, but we're discussing perceptions of simplicity so here goes:

… was really smart. … was very neat, … a great match for machines with limited storage; unlike apps such as Dropbox, where selective syncing is done …

… Microsoft suggests that this system was confusing. … wasn't clear enough … compatibility issues; some apps … wasn't very useful. … these problems seem solvable enough… Microsoft is going in a different, less innovative direction. …

Snip, snip, snip; I had zero knowledge of that period of really smart, very neat confusion :confused: until I stumbled across the articles around July of this year.
 

insomniac86

macrumors 6502a
Oct 13, 2015
604
905
Perth, Western Australia
Whatever is offered at the point of introduction to the masses, no matter how it's presented by Apple, some customers will perceive things to be screwy.

My differences in opinion here probably revolve around a belief that there could or should have been an easy/simple fix by Apple before tomorrow's release. That's not my belief.

OneDrive getting worse to get better in Windows 10 | Ars Technica (2014-11-15, referred from Dropbox will now show all your files locally without using any disk space | Ars Technica (2016-04-02)); this ought to be in the optimised storage topic, but we're discussing perceptions of simplicity so here goes:



Snip, snip, snip; I had zero knowledge of that period of really smart, very neat confusion :confused: until I stumbled across the articles around July of this year.

Yep. I was using all the nice "file placeholder" stuff in OneDrive for all my work machines. Ultimately users found it too confusing and clients got angry when in a plane and couldn't open files when they thought it was on the hard drive.

It's funny because dropbox will be brining that feature out soon with dropbox infinite. Which is basically the same thing.

It will be interesting to see how apple get around this issue with the optimised storage feature.

Anyway, i got a huge infrastructure refresh to start rolling out later today. So i better get some sleep 1:38am. I will chat with you more on these things soon. Nite
 
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Apple Knowledge Navigator

macrumors 68040
Mar 28, 2010
3,534
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It will be interesting to see how apple get around this issue with the optimised storage feature.

Was this feature directly linked to iCloud Drive? I understand that it applies to the contents of the HDD, but I don't see how it could play nice with Drive.

Screen_Shot_2016_09_18_at_19_13_12.png


Apple also didn't clarify whether these files contribute to your iCloud allowance or not, but I'm guessing not as they would have otherwise said so.
 

chriscrowlee

macrumors 65816
Aug 10, 2015
1,333
1,468
San Diego, CA
Question for you smart people....

I have Sierra on my iMac and rMBP. My files on my desktop and documents folder sync just fine, but I have one folder on my desktop, and that folder doesn't sync across devices, just the individual files on the desktop. Is there a way to sync the entire folder as well?

Thanks!
 

insomniac86

macrumors 6502a
Oct 13, 2015
604
905
Perth, Western Australia
Question for you smart people....

I have Sierra on my iMac and rMBP. My files on my desktop and documents folder sync just fine, but I have one folder on my desktop, and that folder doesn't sync across devices, just the individual files on the desktop. Is there a way to sync the entire folder as well?

Thanks!

Subfolders on the desktop should also be uploaded to iCloud.
How large is this folder?
What's your free iCloud Drive space?
What happens if you create a new folder on the desktop eg test and put a test text file in there? Does that sync?
 
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Sorrel

macrumors member
Sep 20, 2016
33
21
UK
Anyone tried syncing or working with two Macs using this system yet?

I'm particularly interested in what it does with file conflicts. Currently I use ChronoSync to keep my Macs in line, but this would somewhat negate that program.

I can see this could be very useful for people (like me) who have a 'home' Mac with plenty of storage space and a 'travel' Mac that they work on whilst away from home. But I would be interested in hearing reports of how it works in practice before trying it out.
 

mrnorwegian

macrumors member
Apr 8, 2015
75
18
Oslo
Hi.

I have a Macbook Pro and an iMac. Naturally the iMac has a lot bigger HD where i keep more files. If i enable desktop and documents sync on both, do I need room for all the files in my desktop and documents folder on my iMac on my MacBook? Or will files download "on demand" to the smaller HD and not fill it up?
 

Phil A.

Moderator emeritus
Apr 2, 2006
5,799
3,094
Shropshire, UK
No, you don't need room for all the files on your MacBook: You can set iCloud up to "optimize Mac storage" (I believe this is the default) which means it works in a similar way to iCloud photos: if you're running low on space, the local copies will be removed and downloaded on demand as needed
 

applesith

macrumors 68030
Jun 11, 2007
2,776
1,570
Manhattan
Does this feature upload all files on my desktop and in my documents to my iCloud account?

That seems like a quick way to use all of my space.

Is there a way to set it to desktop only? I just want to be able to access desktop files from my iPhone & iPad.
 
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mikecwest

macrumors 65816
Jul 7, 2013
1,188
493
Just a word of advice on this feature... You might want to move your Parallels virtual machines to another location, especially if you are on a limited data connection!
 

grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
648
Anyone tried syncing or working with two Macs using this system yet?

Earlier in this topic – not on this page – there's at least one post from someone who has tested with more than one Mac.

I'm particularly interested in what it does with file conflicts. …

Please see:
– the opening post suggests that nothing is done; there's no attempt to merge and so, no attempt to resolve conflicts.
 

stooovie

macrumors 6502a
Nov 21, 2010
836
314
And does it mean Desktop and Documents folder are SYNCED between multiple Macs with the same Apple ID/iCloud account? I wouldn't want that.
 

Apple Knowledge Navigator

macrumors 68040
Mar 28, 2010
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^ Yes. Same Macs and iOS devices, just like other cloud services

I've been in a real pickle trying to accommodate both Dropbox and iCloud Drive, so I made the decision to use Dropbox only for work files/documents (as they often require sharing), and everything else goes in my iCloud Drive/Documents folders.

This has worked really well for me so far, as I can now navigate from one particular location on my Finder's sidebar. Plus, being able to put all my personal things back into the Documents folder is great! Like a blast from the past.
 
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Alrescha

macrumors 68020
Jan 1, 2008
2,156
317
Apple makes tons of money off their iPhones and has billions in reserve. Bring more like Google wouldn't hurt.

It is off-topic, but Google makes "tons" of money selling you and your eyeballs to the highest bidder, reducing you to a item to be sold. The last thing this world needs is anyone "being more like Google".

A.
 
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DotCom2

macrumors 603
Feb 22, 2009
6,165
5,435
I'm really going to be watching this thread because I don't completely understand the whole thing.
Besides that, my doc folder is soooo large I would have to go through it and delete a bunch of stuff. Either that or buy more storage. Hmmm
 
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