Mojave and HFS+ -- it can be done

[Auggie]

BootCamp/CSM/BIOS.

I'm starting the process of backing up my Mojave install from my hardware RAID dual SSD in order to wipe out entirely and reinstall Windows 10 in legacy BIOS as I want to completely redo the partition scheme into a more traditional arrangement that may hopefully alleviate some problems I'm experiencing (I had installed Windows 10 in front of OS X in the partitioning order under the impression Windows had to be in the first 2TB like Win XP/7, but now I'm reading that's no longer the case for Win10... or is that just for Win10 EFI???).

I'll keep Mojave in APFS for now to test out Win10 in legacy BIOS to see if can switch much more cleanly than presently where now I can't properly select Win10 to boot other than through the startup screen boot picker and selecting "EFI Boot"; very problematic with my RX580 which forces me to temporarily install my old Radeon 5780 everytime I want to use Win10 (my Win10 install crashes if using the GT120 by itself).

 

[Amanda Ripanykhazova]

Before we leave topics mentioned earlier in this thread:

I like working with elderly computers and as such have one test-bed box which is a graphics-chip-dead 2011 17 inch MBP with a HDD that (in addition) has been showing irrecoverable SMART errors for about 3 years on its 750GB drive.

I like 17 inch laptops. It works fine. The drive works fine as well, with no noticeable sector degradation over time beyond whatever the maximum for DU is.

This much maligned MBP 8.3 also works fine on Mojave, which I downloaded when it was in beta sometime around last August. HS upgraded to Mojave OK. Thanks for all your amazing work DosDude1! Before you came along, it was working on the Intel chip but was exceptionally flakey. It was working so inconsistently that I thought the problem might even be a dying HDD! After I implemented your solutions, the whole machine appears to be rock solid

But I am stuck not being able to do any installs. Mojave wont install on a drive with SMART errors. So I can't really install APFS.

Does anyone know if this business of Apple not letting users install Mojave on HDDs (which had been reported up till mid-September) pervades Beta 3 please? Or is there some way of updating my 10.14 to 10.14.2 or 10.14.2 beta?

Or is my ONLY bet to backup to TM, wipe, format APFS, restore and hope for the best, - at least until DW starts working with the new file system?

 

[tsialex]

Before we leave topics mentioned earlier in this thread:

I like working with elderly computers and as such have one test-bed box which is a graphics-chip-dead 2011 17 inch MBP with a HDD that (in addition) has been showing irrecoverable SMART errors for about 3 years on its 750GB drive.

I like 17 inch laptops. It works fine. The drive works fine as well, with no noticeable sector degradation over time beyond whatever the maximum for DU is.

This much maligned MBP 8.3 also works fine on Mojave, which I downloaded when it was in beta sometime around last August. HS upgraded to Mojave OK. Thanks for all your amazing work DosDude1!

But I am stuck not being able to do any installs. Mojave wont install on a drive with SMART errors. So I can't really install APFS.

Does anyone know if this business of Apple not letting users install Mojave on HDDs (which had been reported up till mid-September) pervades Beta 3 please? Or is there some way of updating my 10.14 to 10.14.2 or 10.14.2 beta?

Or is my ONLY bet to backup to TM, wipe, format APFS, restore and hope for the best, - at least until DW starts working with the new file system?

macOS installer reject drives with some SMART errors. You can install Mojave into any HDD that don't have SMART errors.

 

[Fishrrman]

Amanda wrote:
"But I am stuck not being able to do any installs. Mojave wont install on a drive with SMART errors. So I can't really install APFS."

I'd buy a cheap 2.5" SATA SSD, install Mojave onto that, and put it into the old MacBook...

 

[solmaker]

All I had to do was update an existing machine to 10.14 normally - no fancy workarounds, booting from external drives, patching the installer app, etc. Then I ran CCC and created a dmg from the machine after it had been updated to 10.14 and had its SSD converted to APFS. I had CCC save the dmg file to an external HD. Then, I used CCC to restore that dmg to a Macbook Pro that had an empty, HFS+ formatted SSD in it. Once the restore was complete, the restored machine booted up on 10.14 running HFS+ no problem.

This method worked successfully for me (using SuperDuper instead of CCC) to boot HFS+ 10.14 on a 2013 MBA. However it also worked fine just cloning APFS 10.14 directly to HFS+ 10.14 without bothering to go through the extra step of creating a DMG then restoring from the DMG to the target HD. Can anyone explain to me what is the added value of going through the DMG?

At this point getting Mojave onto HFS+ seems like pretty much a non-issue... just clone directly from APFS to HFS+ using SuperDuper. I haven't tried yet, but I'm curious whether it would work just as well cloning directly from HFS+ to APFS, and also whether CCC would handle this as well as SuperDuper.

 

[janjop31]

Why would you want to keep using HFS+?

One of the reasons for me is that Alsoft DiskWarrior can't repair APFS disks. Maybe they will address this in version 6. Another reason is that Apple Boot Camp has issues partitioning APFS formatted drives. Maybe Apple will do something about this one, but considering that Boot Camp has gotten worse over the years I wouldn't hold my breath!

 

[Denis M.]

Actually, the one reason why I'm still running High Sierra (on an HFS+ SSD system disk) is that, as far as I can tell, Mojave Disk Utility is still unable to clone an APFS system disk (fails when trying to "invert" the target volume, whatever this may mean - DU can clone without problem an APFS data disk, though). I've no reason to believe that APFS is better, nor that it is worse, than HFS+ (which has serious weaknesses). But I want to be able to make VERIFIED clones of my system disk regularly. I use CCC daily and find it a great backup solution. Still, doing its job online, CCC can't verify the result. As I'm not aware of the existence of a RELIABLE volume shadowing software on macOS, I still want to be able to regularly (say, at least once every fortnight) make a verified clone of my system disk. Maybe I'm paranoid (having been a system support on VMS for thirty years taught me being paranoid is essential if you wish to live long), but I cannot count the number of times when having such backups available saved my bacon.

The day Disk Utility succeeds in cloning an APFS system disk, I'll accept to adopt it for my system disk. There are too many vital things I need on a daily basis on my mac to accept the risk of not having verified backups.
Denis M.

 

[shafez]

I did it a different way,
- Time Machine backup current Mojave installation
- Boot from Sierra install usb stick
- Erase hard disk to HFS+
- Restore Time Machine backup using Sierra Install Disk.
- Done, Enjoy it.

 

[Fishrrman]

Denis wrote in 32 above:
"I use CCC daily and find it a great backup solution. Still, doing its job online, CCC can't verify the result."

Have you considered emailing Mike Bombich (of CCC) and asking him about this?

 

[Denis M.]

Fishrrman,
Actually, yes, I have thought about it, but haven't (yet?) acted on that thought. I'll think again about it. I'm pretty sure Mike Bombich could easily implement a verified backup of an offline system disk. The issue is probably: will it pay off in terms of more sales? A question I'm unable to answer myself.
Denis M.

 

[shafez]

Something important to mention here, You can't update Mojave on HFS+, Auto update will tell you it is up to date and manual will dim all drives.

 

[Fishrrman]

"Something important to mention here, You can't update Mojave on HFS+"

Of course you can.
One just has to know how to do it.
I keep a second drive with an APFS copy of Mojave on it.
I boot up that drive ONLY when an update is released.
Then, I first update my APFS copy.
Then, I use CarbonCopyCloner to clone it to my "working HFS+" drive.
Result: Latest version of Mojave running under HFS+.

I believe it's even possible to format one of the new t2-equipped Macs to HFS+ and run it that way.
I don't have a t2 Mac yet with which to try this...

 

[shafez]

"Something important to mention here, You can't update Mojave on HFS+"

Of course you can.
One just has to know how to do it.
I keep a second drive with an APFS copy of Mojave on it.
I boot up that drive ONLY when an update is released.
Then, I first update my APFS copy.
Then, I use CarbonCopyCloner to clone it to my "working HFS+" drive.
Result: Latest version of Mojave running under HFS+.

I believe it's even possible to format one of the new t2-equipped Macs to HFS+ and run it that way.
I don't have a t2 Mac yet with which to try this...

That will be a lot to do whenever you update.
BTW I am curious to know What software do you use which is not compatible with APFS?
I recently purchased Paragon APFS for Windows, They had an offer for 9$ for current HFS+ for windows user because I needed to access my mac drive from boot camp.

 

[allanmulwee]

Why would you want to keep using HFS+?

I have seen lots of issues with APFS/Mojave particularly on the new machines with T2 chip.

 

[onlyremainingname]

"Something important to mention here, You can't update Mojave on HFS+"

Of course you can.
One just has to know how to do it.
I keep a second drive with an APFS copy of Mojave on it.
I boot up that drive ONLY when an update is released.
Then, I first update my APFS copy.
Then, I use CarbonCopyCloner to clone it to my "working HFS+" drive.
Result: Latest version of Mojave running under HFS+.

I believe it's even possible to format one of the new t2-equipped Macs to HFS+ and run it that way.
I don't have a t2 Mac yet with which to try this...

Do you have to do this for security updates as well or just OS Mojave updates (example: going from 10.14.4 to 10.14.5)?

 

[macuser453787]

Do you have to do this for security updates as well or just OS Mojave updates (example: going from 10.14.4 to 10.14.5)?

I would like to know the answer to this question as well. Does anyone know...?

 

[smayer97]

Actually, the one reason why I'm still running High Sierra (on an HFS+ SSD system disk) is that, as far as I can tell, Mojave Disk Utility is still unable to clone an APFS system disk (fails when trying to "invert" the target volume, whatever this may mean - DU can clone without problem an APFS data disk, though). I've no reason to believe that APFS is better, nor that it is worse, than HFS+ (which has serious weaknesses). But I want to be able to make VERIFIED clones of my system disk regularly. I use CCC daily and find it a great backup solution. Still, doing its job online, CCC can't verify the result. As I'm not aware of the existence of a RELIABLE volume shadowing software on macOS, I still want to be able to regularly (say, at least once every fortnight) make a verified clone of my system disk. Maybe I'm paranoid (having been a system support on VMS for thirty years taught me being paranoid is essential if you wish to live long), but I cannot count the number of times when having such backups available saved my bacon.

The day Disk Utility succeeds in cloning an APFS system disk, I'll accept to adopt it for my system disk. There are too many vital things I need on a daily basis on my mac to accept the risk of not having verified backups.
Denis M.

I FOUND THE SOLUTION to using Apple Disk Utility to create RELIABLE disk images of APFS drives. It was not easy to figure out. The ONLY path to make a viable re-usable disk image formatted as APFS is:

1. First create a blank image file formatted as APFS and Read/Write (requires pre-determining size of image file).
IMPORTANT NOTE: The image (destination) cannot be stored on the same drive or partition (source) from which you are going to create the image.

2. use Restore from <volume> to clone to newly created image file
(Highlight destination <volume> then click [Restore] button and select Restore From <volume>.

3. convert image file to Compressed format (Image > Convert).

ONLY THEN do you have a reliable APFS image, especially w/bootable macOS. I have done this repeatedly and it works fine.

ANY other options/paths, are greyed out, yield "Resource busy" or "image is not APFS format" errors or produces image that is not reliable. Even using Apple Internet Recovery tools/boot was the same.

NOTE: you do NOT need to do ANY of this using Recovery tools. You can do this from a live boot of macOS drive. If you do not have a destination to store the image file other than the same internal drive, you can create a partition large enough to store the image file, using Disk Utility. And yes, you can partition macOS boot drive live.

CAVEAT: Tested only using Mojave 10.14.4 on 2019 27" i9 iMac w 40GB RAM and 512GB SSD (no T2 chip), so YMMV.

Apple needs to fix Disk Utility to work straightforward like it used to but with better support for APFS.

HTH.

 

[smayer97]

Also, Paragon apparently has a free utility that will convert APFS volumes to HFS+ non-destructively, that is, no need to delete or lose existing data on the drive. Find it here: https://www.paragon-software.com/home/apfs-hfs-converter/

(Note: I have not tried this personally so YMMV).


And here is another article from OWC blog (MacSales) on how to prevent converting from HFS+ to APFS during macOS install (applied to High Sierra, so not sure if it holds true for Mojave):
https://blog.macsales.com/42884-is-it-possible-not-to-convert-to-apfs-when-upgrading-to-high-sierra/

 

[Mac Hammer Fan]

Using Startosinstall and the terminal to Prevent Conversion to APFS only works in High Sierra.
I guess the easiest solution is to install Mojave on a second drive and then use Carbon Copy Cloner to clone it to the HFS+ formatted primary drive.

 

[smayer97]

Using Startosinstall and the terminal to Prevent Conversion to APFS only works in High Sierra.
I guess the easiest solution is to install Mojave on a second drive and then use Carbon Copy Cloner to clone it to the HFS+ formatted primary drive.

Don;t forget that there would be one additional step if you want to preserve your current configuration of macOS; that would be copying your macOS to that spare drive first before installing Mojave upgrade.

So, that would be the second easiest... the easiest would be to use Paragon's free utility in the post above, assuming it does what it says. If anyone tries it, please do report back so we can be sure.

 

[shafez]

Don;t forget that there would be one additional step if you want to preserve your current configuration of macOS; that would be copying your macOS to that spare drive first before installing Mojave upgrade.

So, that would be the second easiest... the easiest would be to use Paragon's free utility in the post above, assuming it does what it says. If anyone tries it, please do report back so we can be sure.

Pargon does not work and failed to convert fresh installed Mojave 1.14.6 with supplement update, just the os no data on drive.

 

[MIKX]

I keep one 10.14.6 Mojave SSD formatted in APFS - I keep it up to date.

If there are any new Security Updates - I do the update in the above drive.

Then I carbon Copy Clone the above drive to a Samsung 970 EVO.

Everything works.

 

[smayer97]

Pargon [sic -> Paragaon] does not work and failed to convert fresh installed Mojave 1.14.6 [sic; 10.14.6] with supplement update, just the os no data on drive.

That is not good to see. Did you get an error message or what did you encounter?

 

[shafez]

That is not good to see. Did you get an error message or what did you encounter?

Just failed and try again.
[doublepost=1565560368][/doublepost]

That is not good to see. Did you get an error message or what did you encounter?

Just failed and try again.

 

[organicCPU]

I believe it's even possible to format one of the new t2-equipped Macs to HFS+ and run it that way.
I don't have a t2 Mac yet with which to try this...

Hi Fishrrman. I'm planning to revert to HFS+ on a MBP 2019 that came with macOS Mojave 10.14.x. May I ask you and of course all others watching this thread some questions?

• CCC failed on your initial post. Did you try again with later versions of CCC 5.x?
• Could you meanwhile do a test for HFS+ on a T2 equipped Mac and can you share any experiences?
• Updates that can't apply on HFS+ are just OS and not app related (iWork apps, Apple Pro apps), right?

• If there are (security) updates, I'd expect the following steps always in advance:

1. appropriate Startup Security Utility settings on internal Recovery Partition to allow external boot
2. cloning internal (SSD/HFS+) to external (SSD/APFS) drive
3. booting external drive
4. applying (security) update on booted external drive
5. obligatory restart after macOS updates is automatically rebooting external drive
6. cloning booted external to internal drive
7. booting to updated internal drive

• Did you ever leave away step 1, and incrementally cloning back just the changes of newer macOS related files? I'm asking myself, if it makes sense to utilize only a small external APFS formatted SSD (32 or 64 GB) for the updating purpose. One that only contains the required portions of the macOS Mojave system. I could prevent buying a large sized SSD and save some cloning time before updates, but I've got the feeling that this could lead to some race hazard condition like situations because of constantly changing internal macOS settings that won't get transferred to the external drive? Any Thoughts?

The main reason for me is to run Adobe CS6 on Mojave without APFS related bugs.
• Does anyone have experiences running InDesign CS6 before and after reverting back to HFS+?
• Especially interesting is, if the color management issue (settings that won't persist and wrong color profiles embedded to PDFs) will get solved by HFS+ on Mojave?

All thoughts are welcome!