MP 7,1 Most won’t be able to afford a new Mac Pro

[dysamoria]

Windows 10 is as stable & reliable as OSX. (And it pains me to point that out.).

This has NEVER been the case for me. Not ever. I had no idea how much misery I was putting up with until I started using BeOS and then 2007-era Mac OS. I'm certain some of the problems are the hardware demons (no, I don't believe in magic, but I already hyperbolized about it being voodoo, so...)..., but yes, a LOT of it has to do with Windows being a dumpster trash fire of an operating system. I have had Windows behave HORRIBLY on exactly the same hardware that Linux and BeOS behaved fine on.
[automerge]1574477078[/automerge]

How do you get it to stop coming on at random times? Everybody in the house runs a Windows box but me, and there have been persistent problems with it just waking up for no discernable reason and after a couple hours googling and trying to fix it, I've had to put my foot down with "Nyet! I will not do Windows tech support!"

I've not had this specific problem, but I DO totally relate with the need to say "NO! I will not support Windows!" to people (including myself, every time I end up trying to resolve the latest batch of freaky voodoo **** with my PC).
[automerge]1574477263[/automerge]

My Mac with a GPU does this

My iMac comes on semi-regularly, and then quickly goes to sleep again. I think it might have to do with my MacBook Pro and/or iCloud.

 

[defjam]

This has NEVER been the case for me. Not ever. I had no idea how much misery I was putting up with until I started using BeOS and then 2007-era Mac OS. I'm certain some of the problems are the hardware demons (no, I don't believe in magic, but I already hyperbolized about it being voodoo, so...)..., but yes, a LOT of it has to do with Windows being a dumpster trash fire of an operating system. I have had Windows behave HORRIBLY on exactly the same hardware that Linux and BeOS behaved fine on.

I would recommend you take another look at Windows. It has changed considerably since the days of Be OS.

 

[jinnyman]

Windows as a complete clean install works perfectly. Either you cheap out the hardware, have problem with parts, or doing things on windows that you wouldn’t (probably can’t) do on Mac.

It’s really hard to believe windows nay sayers. This is not a ME era or Vista era.

 

[dysamoria]

I would recommend you take another look at Windows. It has changed considerably since the days of Be OS.

I've been running Windows 10 Pro for years now. It has definitely changed since the days of BeOS, but I'm not sure I agree that it has improved. In some ways, yeah, ok. But it's uglier and more schizophrenic than ever. It STILL breaks itself, and it STILL has MASSIVE issues doing updates.
[automerge]1575148594[/automerge]

Windows as a complete clean install works perfectly. Either you cheap out the hardware, have problem with parts, or doing things on windows that you wouldn’t (probably can’t) do on Mac.

It’s really hard to believe windows nay sayers. This is not a ME era or Vista era.

I had very few problems with Vista. In fact, it's behavior with a marginal GPU was superior to Windows 10's behavior (Vista restarted the GPU subsystem when it would crash; Windows 10 reboots the dogdamned machine).

Oh yeah, a complete "clean" install.... Sure... And when problems crop up, that's the first and only solution: reinstall. If a Windows installation only works "clean", what good is it?

No, I did NOT "cheap out" on the hardware. I did my research. Also, the parts I bought were the ones RECOMMENDED by PC builder geeks... only, a few miserable months after I had my machine built, I started to see people saying the very Asus Striker Extreme MB they advised I buy was "the worst motherboard from Asus, ever". Well ****. Thanks, guys. I replaced it with a highly-rated EVGA board... and the replacement itself was DOA. Three times. The third DOA was VISIBLY BENT. EVGA told me "Well this model has been discontinued for a long time, so... But we will send you one that works..." OH, how HELPFUL. The last one they shipped me worked, but is all kinds of voodoo behavior, like everything else in PC land.

I will NEVER EVER do this again.

I wanted to buy the new Mac Pro to replace my aging Macs and my PC with one unified machine running Mac OS and Windows (for games)... and then Apple decided to massively SHRINK the market for their Mac Pro branded product by over-engineering it and literally DOUBLING the price of the last model. F#CK ME.

 

[H. Flower]

I once had a client who would only work with people who drive expensive cars.

 

[ct2k7]

My iMac comes on semi-regularly, and then quickly goes to sleep again. I think it might have to do with my MacBook Pro and/or iCloud.

I hate it when it auto-unlocks at night and wakes up.. from my watch?

 

[defjam]

I've been running Windows 10 Pro for years now. It has definitely changed since the days of BeOS, but I'm not sure I agree that it has improved. In some ways, yeah, ok. But it's uglier and more schizophrenic than ever. It STILL breaks itself, and it STILL has MASSIVE issues doing updates.

When someone mentions Windows and BeOS in the same paragraph all I can conclude is the person hasn't used Windows since the days of BeOS. Especially when their complaints about Windows are right inline with that time frame.

If you've used a recent version of Windows and the best you can fault Windows for is how it performs updates then I have to say your criticism of Windows is nothing short of trivial. While I would like to see a change to the way Windows handles updates the way it currently works, while not ideal, is nothing to prevent someone from using it.

 

[OkiRun]

I once had a client who would only work with people who drive expensive cars.

A significant costumer complained about my friends car to the CEO. The next DAY he had a new car. That’s how much optics can mean in the business world. The costumer was insulted when he drove to his company and parked with his beat down used Toyota. My friends company was supposed to be more professional than that.

...AND he had to apologize to the costumer for having done it!

 

[MarkC426]

Having a ‘fancy’ car doesn’t magically make a company professional (tbh they sound the opposite from professional by their attitude)..... ?
At the end of the day it still gets you from A to B.

 

[thisisnotmyname]

Having a ‘fancy’ car doesn’t magically make a company professional (tbh they sound the opposite from professional by their attitude)..... ?
At the end of the day it still gets you from A to B.

As much as we like to think it doesn't, image matters. If you were looking for a new financial advisor and they arrived in a 20 year old rusted out Ford would you be inclined to trust them with your investments? This situation seems to be more superficial but we can't kid ourselves that it doesn't matter to anyone. People can and do infer ability and competence from presentation and will worry that they've received the most junior and least capable resource from their vendor if they roll up in a vehicle that looks like it barely made it into the parking lot. If my vendors arrive in a ten year old Honda that looks well kept I'd never think twice. If my vendors arrive in a vehicle belching smoke, or rusted out, or with colored tape over a broken light, or a bumper held on with coat hangers, I'd start to wonder whether the firm was successful and by extension whether they were delivering quality work - or did they send me an intern* rather than then high calibre people their reputation was built on.

*I'm totally fine with interns/new hires as part of a team but I'm usually buying experience from a vendor so solo wouldn't cut it.

 

[dysamoria]

When someone mentions Windows and BeOS in the same paragraph all I can conclude is the person hasn't used Windows since the days of BeOS. Especially when their complaints about Windows are right inline with that time frame.

If you've used a recent version of Windows and the best you can fault Windows for is how it performs updates then I have to say your criticism of Windows is nothing short of trivial. While I would like to see a change to the way Windows handles updates the way it currently works, while not ideal, is nothing to prevent someone from using it.

Nothing short of trivial? Wasting gigabytes and hours of time repeatedly downloading updates that repeatedly fail to install is trivial to you?? A system that hides its updating from the user, requiring the user to go find out what’s going on, is trivial?

It absolutely prevented me using the machine. That’s the whole POINT of me sharing my complaints here.

 

[ssgbryan]

It is a poor craftsman that blames their tools......

Billions of folks manage it.

 

[MarkC426]

As much as we like to think it doesn't, image matters. If you were looking for a new financial advisor and they arrived in a 20 year old rusted out Ford would you be inclined to trust them with your investments? This situation seems to be more superficial but we can't kid ourselves that it doesn't matter to anyone. People can and do infer ability and competence from presentation and will worry that they've received the most junior and least capable resource from their vendor if they roll up in a vehicle that looks like it barely made it into the parking lot. If my vendors arrive in a ten year old Honda that looks well kept I'd never think twice. If my vendors arrive in a vehicle belching smoke, or rusted out, or with colored tape over a broken light, or a bumper held on with coat hangers, I'd start to wonder whether the firm was successful and by extension whether they were delivering quality work - or did they send me an intern* rather than then high calibre people their reputation was built on.

*I'm totally fine with interns/new hires as part of a team but I'm usually buying experience from a vendor so solo wouldn't cut it.

All valid points........ ?
But who these days actually speaks face to face with banks/advisors, personally I don’t, all online.

 

[Korican100]

They select windows because that is what their software runs on. A lot more software than both OSX and Linux combined.

Windows 10 is as stable & reliable as OSX. (And it pains me to point that out.).

i work with windows at work all day, and work on mac all night. Pains me to say, i have tons of issues on Windows 10, and mac has hardly none in comparison

 

[ct2k7]

i work with windows at work all day, and work on mac all night. Pains me to say, i have tons of issues on Windows 10, and mac has hardly none in comparison

I discount work environments unless you've set it up and have total control. AD policies can screw things up.

 

[Korican100]

I discount work environments unless you've set it up and have total control. AD policies can screw things up.

Why would you discount work environments?
Are they so taxing on the system, that it the OS would act unpredictably under load?

 

[defjam]

Nothing short of trivial? Wasting gigabytes and hours of time repeatedly downloading updates that repeatedly fail to install is trivial to you?? A system that hides its updating from the user, requiring the user to go find out what’s going on, is trivial?

It absolutely prevented me using the machine. That’s the whole POINT of me sharing my complaints here.

Can you elaborate on what issues you're having with downloading updates? What installation failures have you had? What do you mean by "hides its updating from the user" and "find out what's going on"?

IME updates happen in the background without any user interaction / intervention.
[automerge]1575241039[/automerge]

i work with windows at work all day, and work on mac all night. Pains me to say, i have tons of issues on Windows 10, and mac has hardly none in comparison

Can you provide details on, say, the top five issues you have with Windows 10?
[automerge]1575241108[/automerge]

I discount work environments unless you've set it up and have total control. AD policies can screw things up.

If AD policies are screwing things up then the blame lies solely on the policies and not AD. AD merely enforces policies, it does not make them.

 

[AidenShaw]

Why would you discount work environments?
Are they so taxing on the system, that it the OS would act unpredictably under load?

Work systems are often bound by IT policies, with restrictions on services and centrally managed servers (and far too often "centrally mis-managed" servers).

I have an "IT managed" Windows laptop, and several dozen "AS managed" Windows servers (as well as around a hundred Linux systems). Uptimes on my "AS managed" servers are far longer than the "IT managed" systems.

IT policies are often self-destructive. IT is afraid that updates will break corporate applications - so updating is disabled or throttled by IT. The net result is that IT systems run without bug fixes and security updates far longer than AS systems.

 

[HDFan]

when the equipment being used doesn’t look like some giant broadcast camera array akin to shooting an NFL football game.

Totally off the subject but there is a YouTube video discussing why you need a $250k camera to shoot an NFL game. It's the $212k lens. You need incredible zoom features since you can't move the camera to get that close to the subject.

 

[dysamoria]

It is a poor craftsman that blames their tools......

Billions of folks manage it.

Oh yay, the “a poor craftsman” meme again. [rolls eyes]

It’s a foolish craftsman who continues to use the same badly-designed or broken tool.

“Billions of folks” are conditioned to accept the state of affairs with the computer industry as some kind of absolute, so I should just follow along like an obedient consumer. Got it.

The conditioning to accept the state of software as is, with perpetually-unfixed bugs and bad design, is somewhat akin to the act of following a religion. Or at least the belief that a person cannot be ethical without some religion to tell them what’s right and wrong.
[automerge]1575285270[/automerge]

Can you elaborate on what issues you're having with downloading updates? What installation failures have you had? What do you mean by "hides its updating from the user" and "find out what's going on"?

IME updates happen in the background without any user interaction / intervention.

You tell me. The update control panel tells me that the update process is in one state or another. I watch the status indicator change from one to another (preparing, downloading, installing), and then it declares the update process to be a failure. It tries again. And again. And again. Eventually, one of the times it does this, it doesn’t fail and the machine reboots to do the actual installation.

And yes, it’s going on in the background, totally without any sign as to what’s going on, unless I go to the update settings. Then I see the status indicator. Otherwise, it’s up to me to try to find out what’s taking up stupid amounts of CPU in Activity Manager, and that’s when I see the various Windows Update system services and their CPU usage.

None of this is probably how it’s *supposed to be*, but that’s the norm of my lifetime of experiences with Windows.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread

"Most won't be able to afford the new Mac Pro

Really? Well that's not a fact, that's an opinion. And to add to this, who is 'most'?

The professional-user landscape of today differs greatly to what it was when the previous Mac Pro tower was available. What constitutes a professional - in the sense of content creation and even scientific purposes - has evolved much in the same way that hardware has also evolved. We're achieving more with less, and the professional makes their revenue in a wider variety of roles.

Even 10 years ago, Mac products were very clearly defined by their form because everything deferred to the form factor. In the past, the Mac mini was an entry level, modestly powered machine designed to entice PC owners, and which became of interest to hobbyists. Today, the Mac mini is marketed towards professional use cases - being used sufficiently for Xcode or even render farms.

Or how about the the iMac, a machine that struggled even in the early Intel days to cool properly, is now a powerhouse that can edit 4K video and more. It's user base has expanded dramatically.

Apple demonstrated very fairly that the new Mac Pro is, on equivalent with similarly specced PCs, a value machine for what you get. But your argument here is that it's too expensive.

This argument doesn't make sense in the current market, as the segment that does need this extreme power throughput and expansion will have no hesitation in spending the money.

The fact of the matter is, unless your demands enter the regions of 8K video editing, complex scientific modelling, VR development or sever based applications, the iMac Pro is simply a better choice. And those hobbyists that do want to the Mac Pro design simply for its functionality rather than professional usage (which isn't Apple's priority, at all), will also pay.

 

[ct2k7]

Except of course if you need powerful graphics cards or sustained click speed, then the iMac is not really a good product fit.
Not if you don’t want a glossy screen.

 

[defjam]

None of this is probably how it’s *supposed to be*, but that’s the norm of my lifetime of experiences with Windows.

If you acknowledge that this is not how it is supposed to be then what does that tell you? Does that tell you there is a problem with Windows itself or that there is something wrong with your installation of it? Given the above statement of yours the logical conclusion is there is a problem with your installation and that you should try to fix it (even if that means reinstalling it) instead of faulting Windows as broken.

As for what could possibly be wrong could you send me the output of the following command (run from an administrative PowerShell command window):

dism /online /Get-Packages /Format:Table​

 

[thisisnotmyname]

If you acknowledge that this is not how it is supposed to be then what does that tell you? Does that tell you there is a problem with Windows itself or that there is something wrong with your installation of it? Given the above statement of yours the logical conclusion is there is a problem with your installation and that you should try to fix it (even if that means reinstalling it) instead of faulting Windows as broken.

As for what could possibly be wrong could you send me the output of the following command (run from an administrative PowerShell command window):

dism /online /Get-Packages /Format:Table​

you're holding installing it wrong.

 

[bob_stan]

I don't want to sound pedantic, but what does this discussion have to do with "Most won't be able to afford a new Mac Pro?"