MP 7,1 Storage options

[CraicDesign]

If, as the web site implies, the standard storage on the entry level Mac Pro will be 256Gb, well.. that's laughably inadequate. To me this implies it will be very expensive to get it to 1Tb (the minimum I would require). I'm wondering how badly a PCIe card with an SSD on it would suck. It might be a lot cheaper, until the next time I'd be able to invest a grand or so.. The great think about the Pro is that it's always there to take any spare money (I mean, "grow with your needs")

 

[Zdigital2015]

If, as the web site implies, the standard storage on the entry level Mac Pro will be 256Gb, well.. that's laughably inadequate. To me this implies it will be very expensive to get it to 1Tb (the minimum I would require). I'm wondering how badly a PCIe card with an SSD on it would suck. It might be a lot cheaper, until the next time I'd be able to invest a grand or so.. The great think about the Pro is that it's always there to take any spare money (I mean, "grow with your needs")

The BTO cost to go from 256GB to 1TB should come in at $400. That would be less than “a grand or so”, but I digress.

 

[MGrayson3]

There is a difference between “standard” and “minimal”.

 

[CraicDesign]

The BTO cost to go from 256GB to 1TB should come in at $400. That would be less than “a grand or so”, but I digress.

That wouldn't be too bad at all - hope that's right. It seems odd that they are skimping with 256Gb as the default though.

 

[Ph.D.]

One way to look at it is that the 256 is just a boot drive, or one that also holds your programs but not your data. In this view, Apple is actually "generously" allowing us to save money by only putting in a miserable amount (if they put in 1 TB as a minimum, presumably the base price would be higher. Yeah, right!).

Then get a fast, 16-lane, 4-NVMe drive card and load it up with 4x 2 TB NVMe's in a RAID-5 array. That yields about 6GB of super-fast and redundantly stored data. Nice!

 

[bsbeamer]

The minimum entry specs of basically an RX 580 and 256GB SSD for $6K are REALLY leaving a sour taste, but until BTO pricing is available I’m not assuming anything.

 

[profdraper]

Storage? This tower has only two drive slots (& they are for propriety devices). I'm aghast that in a physically large tower like this, that there are NO user-configurable storage bays, eg, in my Dell T9710 worstation I have eight drive bays that can take 3.5" spinners or 2.5" SSDs (plus 7x PCIe sots). If I wanted to move sideways to the MP, of course I would want to migrate my existing drives & like many others I assume.

The only current options appear to be:
i) buy an overpriced, fully loaded Pegasus MPX bay that ships only with HDDs (no way); or
ii) add also expensive PCIe NMVe cards and then have to buy many M.2s - the MP apparently does not support PCIe port bifurcation & so the short list of PCIe cards that provide this are also over-priced, or
iii) buy & add in external multi-bay Thunderbolt chassis (also needless, may help to saturate TB bus unnecessarily; mine would be used for pro audio IO, existing 4k Displays etc).

Internal is the best option - especially in mind of BYO (my own 7x SSDs). Nuts - no drive bays onboard.

Hopeful & awaiting to see what OWC might do. A PCIe-based, bare-bones, add your own drives option? Say, 4-6 x 2.5" SSDs on a card, MPX or simply single PCIe - an OWC 'Thunderbay 6' on a card would be ideal.

 

[bsbeamer]

A PCIe-based, bare-bones, add your own drives option? Say, 4-6 x 2.5" SSDs on a card

This is supposed to be available from Promise in a 4-bay, but no details have been provided.

 

[AidenShaw]

This is supposed to be available from Promise in a 4-bay, but no details have been provided.

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[thisisnotmyname]

Storage? This tower has only two drive slots (& they are for propriety devices). I'm aghast that in a physically large tower like this, that there are NO user-configurable storage bays, eg, in my Dell T9710 worstation I have eight drive bays that can take 3.5" spinners or 2.5" SSDs (plus 7x PCIe sots). If I wanted to move sideways to the MP, of course I would want to migrate my existing drives & like many others I assume.

The only current options appear to be:
i) buy an overpriced, fully loaded Pegasus MPX bay that ships only with HDDs (no way); or
ii) add also expensive PCIe NMVe cards and then have to buy many M.2s - the MP apparently does not support PCIe port bifurcation & so the short list of PCIe cards that provide this are also over-priced, or
iii) buy & add in external multi-bay Thunderbolt chassis (also needless, may help to saturate TB bus unnecessarily; mine would be used for pro audio IO, existing 4k Displays etc).

Internal is the best option - especially in mind of BYO (my own 7x SSDs). Nuts - no drive bays onboard.

Hopeful & awaiting to see what OWC might do. A PCIe-based, bare-bones, add your own drives option? Say, 4-6 x 2.5" SSDs on a card, MPX or simply single PCIe - an OWC 'Thunderbay 6' on a card would be ideal.

To each their own.

You can purchase 8TB of native storage direct from Apple as BTO (not cheap but as has been beat to death in this forum, this is not a budget computer). For those of us with petabytes of super fast networked storage though I'm happy we have small options available and I'm glad there aren't a bunch of stamped steel monstrosities laying around in case someone wanted to bolt a bunch of old spinning disks in while blocking my airflow too, no need for us to cobble together USB powered fans aimed at drives and NB chips like the folks on the cMPs do.

PS are the old spinners in your Dell formatted APFS for when you bolt them into your new Mac Pro? ?

 

[basehead617]

My read on this is that a large portion of the target market for this will use some sort of above-my-paygrade ultra fast network storage for video stuff, and doesn't need a large internal drive (just a boot/OS/app drive as someone said)

 

[iGobbleoff]

I'll be going with 512 at the very least, and maxing out the cores as much as I can. The RAM and other storage can come later. I'm rebuilding my network with 10gb everywhere and have a mass of storage on a NAS so not fussed on local storage.

 

[Polymorphic]

Storage? This tower has only two drive slots (& they are for propriety devices). I'm aghast that in a physically large tower like this, that there are NO user-configurable storage bays, eg, in my Dell T9710 worstation I have eight drive bays that can take 3.5" spinners or 2.5" SSDs (plus 7x PCIe sots). If I wanted to move sideways to the MP, of course I would want to migrate my existing drives & like many others I assume.

The only current options appear to be:
i) buy an overpriced, fully loaded Pegasus MPX bay that ships only with HDDs (no way); or
ii) add also expensive PCIe NMVe cards and then have to buy many M.2s - the MP apparently does not support PCIe port bifurcation & so the short list of PCIe cards that provide this are also over-priced, or
iii) buy & add in external multi-bay Thunderbolt chassis (also needless, may help to saturate TB bus unnecessarily; mine would be used for pro audio IO, existing 4k Displays etc).

Internal is the best option - especially in mind of BYO (my own 7x SSDs). Nuts - no drive bays onboard.

Hopeful & awaiting to see what OWC might do. A PCIe-based, bare-bones, add your own drives option? Say, 4-6 x 2.5" SSDs on a card, MPX or simply single PCIe - an OWC 'Thunderbay 6' on a card would be ideal.

This is one of the reasons I switched to Windows for my digital audio workstation a few years ago. I have terabytes upon terabytes of virtual instrument samples, and since the Mac Pro 5,1 was discontinued, Apple doesn't make a computer that I can store them on without spending a fortune. And there's absolutely no reason to put the samples on an expensive 10GigE NAS when I can throw another 2 terabyte SATA3 SSD into the PC for far less money.

 

[bsbeamer]

Honestly, 256GB is barely enough to run the OS and major video applications with plugins and other tools.

Quick check of the Applications folder on my MP5,1 shows 195.66GB right now. And I recently cleaned that out. I'm sure I could prune that down a little more after CC 2020 installs, but the majority is Adobe applications and plugins. Personally prefer to keep 25-50% free to keep SSD speeds at their theoretical maximums. No working video media is stored on this SSD/NVMe, it is only the OS and applications.

Would seriously consider an upgrade to 500GB for anyone considering this machine, especially if the primary OS SSD is basically locked by the T2 and might as well be soldered.

 

[AidenShaw]

And there's absolutely no reason to put the samples on an expensive 10GigE NAS

Expensive, and not that fast.

People here are obsessing about NVMe drives that top out at 2 GB/sec, when the best you can get with 10 GbE NAS is about 1 GB/sec. The NAS also has a lot of latency, and that really sucks if you're dealing with lots of small files.

You also need a server class 10 GbE NIC for good performance, and I don't think we know how smart the NICs on the 7,1 are.

 

[jinnyman]

One way to look at it is that the 256 is just a boot drive, or one that also holds your programs but not your data. In this view, Apple is actually "generously" allowing us to save money by only putting in a miserable amount (if they put in 1 TB as a minimum, presumably the base price would be higher. Yeah, right!).

Then get a fast, 16-lane, 4-NVMe drive card and load it up with 4x 2 TB NVMe's in a RAID-5 array. That yields about 6GB of super-fast and redundantly stored data. Nice!

I think you are way too generous for Apple. Even at the base configuration price, the standard storage option should have been 1tb at least. 1tb SSD is dirt cheap nowadays.

Apple’s Mac OS doesn’t let us easily relocate the system and application folders to the drivers other than system driver. Heck, the size of programs we all use can easily fill up 256 in no time. Frankly, 256 is not enough for even a system driver, and providing 256 in MP 7.1 is insulting to its customers.

 

[AidenShaw]

1tb SSD is dirt cheap nowadays

I picked up a 4TB Samsung for $499 from Newegg over Black Friday.

 

[jinnyman]

I picked up a 4TB Samsung for $499 from Newegg over Black Friday.

WOW. I think I paid similar amount for 2TB SSD. It's a NVME m.2 so it's more expensive, but still.

 

[Nugget]

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View attachment 881167

I would have gone with Naked Eyes. Lyrics are on point.

 

[deconstruct60]

If, as the web site implies, the standard storage on the entry level Mac Pro will be 256Gb, well.. that's laughably inadequate.

Depends upon task assigned to the system. For boot storage for a hypervisor/virtualation set up, it is on verge of being laughably over allocated.

If the "viewer' baseline is something of a standalone FCPX or LogicX only system to be used unmodified straight out of the box, then yes it is off. But I suspect Apple has use cases lined up that aren't those two.

The iMac Pro starts off with one standard configuration and everything else is a build to order (BTO) off of that. I think can knock Apple for 'missing the boat' if that Mac Pro is set up in that same way. There should be a at least one other standard configuration. Perhaps it is 12 core and 1TB (and 48GB ) as a starting baseline. ( or 8 core , 1TB , 48GB , Vega II )

There are also going to be folks who are in the "T2 is 'bad' but I'll buy it anyway" camp. Those folks aren't going to want more than 256GB either ( and primarily boot off of something non-T2 all the time after the intial set up. similar to hypervisor just a nominal macOS maintenance OS instance installed. ).

To me this implies it will be very expensive to get it to 1Tb (the minimum I would require.

apple is relatively consistent:

new MBP 16"
512GB to 1TB $200 (per 512GB --> $400/TB rate)
1TB to 2TB $400 ( $400/TB rate )

iMac Pro
1 TB to 2TB $400 ( $400/TB rate )

iMac 27"
256GB to 1TB $400 ( $400/TB rate )

Jumping to 1TB should be in the $400 range ( which if this is MLC NAND flash isn't too far off. No credit for drive being replaced but )

Most likely the MBP 16" pricing schemes are going to be quite good indicators of how much will pay for the higher levels (i.e., similar + $$ over base system price for capacity X ).

I'm wondering how badly a PCIe card with an SSD on it would suck.

By the time you buy a decent card and a 1TB MLC SSD then probably won't beat the price. TLC or QLC drive might tip the scales back into the card + M.2 ( or 2.5" ) but for moderate boot drive it the T2 options probably won't be in the competitive ball park range.

You'll need a macOS instance on the T2 since by default the PCI-e card probably won't boot on fresh from the factory settings. So will need to boot to turn the looser optional secure boot settings off.

 

[deconstruct60]

Storage? This tower has only two drive slots (& they are for propriety devices).

Those aren't drive slots. There is only one drive. There are slots for two NAND chip daughter cards but those are not drive. Pragmatically the T2 driven SSD here is split into separate physical components. The 'brain' of the drive ( SSD controller) is in the T2. The chips that store the data are the removable cards (and are effectively 'brainless'). It is the same set up as the iMac Pro.

Labeling the effective internals of a SSD as 'proprietary' is the same boat as all the other internals of other SSDs. If the NAND chips fail (the major subsystem of an SSD that wears ) then can be replaced ( but basically will have a new SSD and would likely have to replace in pairs (to reset wear levels the same). )

I'm aghast that in a physically large tower like this, that there are NO user-configurable storage bays,

Not sure why there would be an expectation that Apple was going to design around HDD form factors. Apple is very much set on SSD storage. Optionally folks can put stuff in but that won't be the default. Doubtful there will be any HDDs in the BTO options (i.e., ship with an HDD in the Mac Pro box).

The only current options appear to be:
i) buy an overpriced, fully loaded Pegasus MPX bay that ships only with HDDs (no way); or
ii) add also expensive PCIe NMVe cards and then have to buy many M.2s - the MP apparently does not support PCIe port bifurcation & so the short list of PCIe cards that provide this are also over-priced, or
iii) buy & add in external multi-bay Thunderbolt chassis (also needless, may help to saturate TB bus unnecessarily; mine would be used for pro audio IO, existing 4k Displays etc).

There are some others.

The J2i module https://www.promise.com/us/Promotion/PegasusStorage
There aren't two physical HDD drives bays built in, but there is a mount point for 2 drives provisioned in the box. It is a "do it yourself" kit but that is an option. ( power and two SATA sockets internal + 3rd party kit + drives ).

The J2i comes with one drive but it shouldn't take that long for some 3rd party frames to show up that are driveless that mount in the same location.

The location isn't that great if going to configure with a really hot CPU. But that is a trade-off that someone can make. ( two 2.5" SSD could present an even lower profile with a different bracket than the J2i).

similarly Not just M.2 holding cards. 2.5" drive holders also. https://www.sonnettech.com/product/tempossd.html or https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/SSD/PCIe/OWC/Mercury-Accelsior/S-Carrier

Internal is the best option - especially in mind of BYO (my own 7x SSDs). Nuts - no drive bays onboard.

7 2.5" SSDs would need something substantively new, but 2-4 really aren't that hard to provision.

Hopeful & awaiting to see what OWC might do. A PCIe-based, bare-bones, add your own drives option? Say, 4-6 x 2.5" SSDs on a card, MPX or simply single PCIe - an OWC 'Thunderbay 6' on a card would be ideal.

Perhaps. But sitting in a MPX slot with a RAID/SATA controller that had x4 PCI-e v3 like bandwidth probably wouldn't fly so well. It would help perhaps in keeping the costs down, but it would be squatting on a boatload of bandwidth that would go unused.

I'd expect a MPX card with 6 M.2 before the 2.5". The MPX connector gives two 'free' x4 links ( so two drives right there with no 'glue' and OWC already has a four m.2 solution. That would make for a quick path to 6 plus some new thermals and daughter card to figure out.

 

[deconstruct60]

Honestly, 256GB is barely enough to run the OS and major video applications with plugins and other tools. ....

Would seriously consider an upgrade to 500GB for anyone considering this machine, especially if the primary OS SSD is basically locked by the T2 and might as well be soldered.

There is no 500-512GB option. The specs jump straight from 256GB (one 256GB capacity NAND card) straight to 1TB ( two 512GB NAND cards ... same as the iMac Pro base). Where they are getting these quirky 'one-sy' , 256GB cards from is odd. They aren't even pairing them up to hit a 512GB mark.

There is likely some class of customers who said they did not want much storage at all. I strongly suspect this was far more primarily driven by the folks who will buy the rack mount version. That base storage config 'leaked' over to the tower version because of consistency across those two variants ( and it allows them to limbo down to $5,999 instead of $6,399 as a "entry base price". (similar reason to fill just 4 of the 6 memory channels with DIMMs too. ... just to limbo lower. )

However, I also suspect that the rack version will be hugely missing in action at the launch so that it will all continue to look odd and drag lots of grumbles for an extended period of time.

The Rack versions aren't gong to be deployed mainly as self contained NAS servers. More than likely they will tap into a SAN/NAS network for most of the storage. (virtualization services with migration and failover , network mounted application volumes and home directories , etc. ). Also servers with racked DAS also (if in the file serving "business". ) and slots used for SAS/SATA host based adapters.
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The minimum entry specs of basically an RX 580 and 256GB SSD for $6K are REALLY leaving a sour taste, but until BTO pricing is available I’m not assuming anything.

In the storage BTO pricing Apple is pretty consistent across products. If look at the MBP 16" pricing for storage options, the Mac Pro will probably line up right with that. There really isn't some "dark mystery" there at all.


RAM pricing ... the iMac Pro has clues.

Video cards... that is probably the bigger wild card. ( the Afterburner doesn't exist anywhere else, yet so that is an even bigger wild card. )

 

[OkiRun]

That wouldn't be too bad at all - hope that's right. It seems odd that they are skimping with 256Gb as the default though.

Just think... you will have a lot of upgradable RAM steps at your chronological and financial leisure.
[automerge]1575704245[/automerge]

Storage? This tower has only two drive slots (& they are for propriety devices). I'm aghast that in a physically large tower like this, that there are NO user-configurable storage bays, eg, in my Dell T9710 worstation I have eight drive bays that can take 3.5" spinners or 2.5" SSDs (plus 7x PCIe sots). If I wanted to move sideways to the MP, of course I would want to migrate my existing drives & like many others I assume.

The only current options appear to be:
i) buy an overpriced, fully loaded Pegasus MPX bay that ships only with HDDs (no way); or
ii) add also expensive PCIe NMVe cards and then have to buy many M.2s - the MP apparently does not support PCIe port bifurcation & so the short list of PCIe cards that provide this are also over-priced, or
iii) buy & add in external multi-bay Thunderbolt chassis (also needless, may help to saturate TB bus unnecessarily; mine would be used for pro audio IO, existing 4k Displays etc).

Internal is the best option - especially in mind of BYO (my own 7x SSDs). Nuts - no drive bays onboard.

Hopeful & awaiting to see what OWC might do. A PCIe-based, bare-bones, add your own drives option? Say, 4-6 x 2.5" SSDs on a card, MPX or simply single PCIe - an OWC 'Thunderbay 6' on a card would be ideal.

I'm interested -
Why would you want to exchange your Dell T9710 that seems to fit your needs very well at the moment for a Mac Pro 7.1?

 

[chfilm]

There is no 500-512GB option. The specs jump straight from 256GB (one 256GB capacity NAND card) straight to 1TB ( two 512GB NAND cards ... same as the iMac Pro base). Where they are getting these quirky 'one-sy' , 256GB cards from is odd. They aren't even pairing them up to hit a 512GB mark.

There is likely some class of customers who said they did not want much storage at all. I strongly suspect this was far more primarily driven by the folks who will buy the rack mount version. That base storage config 'leaked' over to the tower version because of consistency across those two variants ( and it allows them to limbo down to $5,999 instead of $6,399 as a "entry base price". (similar reason to fill just 4 of the 6 memory channels with DIMMs too. ... just to limbo lower. )

However, I also suspect that the rack version will be hugely missing in action at the launch so that it will all continue to look odd and drag lots of grumbles for an extended period of time.

The Rack versions aren't gong to be deployed mainly as self contained NAS servers. More than likely they will tap into a SAN/NAS network for most of the storage. (virtualization services with migration and failover , network mounted application volumes and home directories , etc. ). Also servers with racked DAS also (if in the file serving "business". ) and slots used for SAS/SATA host based adapters.
[automerge]1575701022[/automerge]


In the storage BTO pricing Apple is pretty consistent across products. If look at the MBP 16" pricing for storage options, the Mac Pro will probably line up right with that. There really isn't some "dark mystery" there at all.


RAM pricing ... the iMac Pro has clues.

Video cards... that is probably the bigger wild card. ( the Afterburner doesn't exist anywhere else, yet so that is an even bigger wild card. )

Really am extremely curious for the GPU and afterburner prices... I suspect about 1000 for the Vega II and another 1000 for the afterburner. I’d be happily pleased if 1000 would get me even a Vega II Duo.

I’m Totally Invested into prores Workflows but I’m not even sure the afterburner will be needed for regular 4K 2 stream Workflows since even the trashcan can handle those OK.
What do you guys think?
And the biggest question- do you think we’ll be able to purchase let’s say a Vega Duo or the afterburner later on separately straight from Apple?

 

[profdraper]

PS are the old spinners in your Dell formatted APFS for when you bolt them into your new Mac Pro? ?

As per the original post: my 7x disks in the Dell bays are NOT spinners, they are all Samsung 2.5" SSDs (some arranged as RAID). APFS? All disks are presently formatted as NTFS (of course, for WinPro 10), but is easy to migrate to HFS+ should I want to keep the data on some the SSDs intact: I use the Paragon utility to do that & have moved any number of disks back and forth between OSs in the past.