Surface Devices

[Queen6]

Thanks I think it's clear to all now your subjectiveness on this

Need 240W - 300W performance mains powers a given, want big numbers that don't pan out MBP offers that
all day long, only a 4GB dGPU on the high tier model what a joke.

Apple - "Pro my Arse" get with it or get out...

Q-6

 

[csurfr]

Thanks I think it's clear to all now your subjectiveness on this

I’m sorry that I don’t agree with your view of this machine, but after owning both the 15” Advanced and the 13” Stealth for a period of time and finding the battery life wanting, yes that is my opinion. My point is that a manufacturer should optimize their hardware to get their claimed battery life. It shouldn’t be up to me to do 20 different things in hopes that it will last a work day. Period. Not when you’re paying $2700.

I’m certainly not acting like you and rolling my eyes because of your opinion. Not sure what that’s all about.

 

[jrichards1408]

I’m sorry that I don’t agree with your view of this machine, but after owning both the 15” Advanced and the 13” Stealth for a period of time and finding the battery life wanting, yes that is my opinion. My point is that a manufacturer should optimize their hardware to get their claimed battery life. It shouldn’t be up to me to do 20 different things in hopes that it will last a work day. Period. Not when you’re paying $2700.

I’m certainly not acting like you and rolling my eyes because of your opinion. Not sure what that’s all about.

Well I've tested and used many laptops and none of them last over 4h on my typical work use of coding in android studio with about 20 chrome tabs open and slack/WhatsApp open too on near full brightness screen

 

[Bodie CI5]

I’m certainly not acting like you and rolling my eyes because of your opinion. Not sure what that’s all about.

Unfortunately the phenomenon you touch upon here, can be quite common in this sub-section of MR.

 

[csurfr]

Well I've tested and used many laptops and none of them last over 4h on my typical work use of coding in android studio with about 20 chrome tabs open and slack/WhatsApp open too on near full brightness screen

The last time I was using a workflow like yours was with other Jetbrains products (PyCharm, WebStorm), as well as Chrome, Slack, and some random things going in Terminal. My MacBook Pro (2018 15") would net me around 6 hours of life at about, eh...60% brightness. So it's certainly doable.

But again, it all comes down to the individual manufacturers. Some will prioritize battery life, and some won't. From my experience with the Surface devices, the Dell XPS 15, and the two Razer models mentioned above, I'd say that Apple and Microsoft (with Dell coming in a very close 3rd) put more of an emphasis on that than others do. I absolutely agree that you cannot put an RTX 2070 in a laptop and expect to get 6 hours of battery life. That's just not possible with current technology. However, when said card isn't in use, I wouldn't expect the drain to be so prominent.

I know a lot of people don't mind tinkering to get the best battery life : performance ratio that they can, but for me personally, I just want to open the lid and go. Apple and MS seem to provide that ability. Even if there is a small performance hit.

 

[jrichards1408]

The last time I was using a workflow like yours was with other Jetbrains products (PyCharm, WebStorm), as well as Chrome, Slack, and some random things going in Terminal. My MacBook Pro (2018 15") would net me around 6 hours of life at about, eh...60% brightness. So it's certainly doable.

But again, it all comes down to the individual manufacturers. Some will prioritize battery life, and some won't. From my experience with the Surface devices, the Dell XPS 15, and the two Razer models mentioned above, I'd say that Apple and Microsoft (with Dell coming in a very close 3rd) put more of an emphasis on that than others do. I absolutely agree that you cannot put an RTX 2070 in a laptop and expect to get 6 hours of battery life. That's just not possible with current technology. However, when said card isn't in use, I wouldn't expect the drain to be so prominent.

I know a lot of people don't mind tinkering to get the best battery life : performance ratio that they can, but for me personally, I just want to open the lid and go. Apple and MS seem to provide that ability. Even if there is a small performance hit.

Do you mean that Microsoft devices have the best battery life?

 

[csurfr]

Do you mean that Microsoft devices have the best battery life?

Based on my experience in the last couple of years I’d say they are right up there with Apple in that regard.

 

[LeeW]

Did they change SL3 pricing at any point? I am sure the upgrades were cheaper but maybe I was looking at the wrong thing, $999 for 128GB SSD, $1,299 for the step up to 256GB with no other change. $300 for an extra 128GB, that is more than Apple. Never thought I would ever say that.

 

[Falhófnir]

Did they change SL3 pricing at any point? I am sure the upgrades were cheaper but maybe I was looking at the wrong thing, $999 for 128GB SSD, $1,299 for the step up to 256GB with no other change. $300 for an extra 128GB, that is more than Apple. Never thought I would ever say that.

That's what's finally lent me away from the SL3 15" - to get the 512GB configuration is over £2,000, while the MBP 16" now comes with that storage tier for £2,400 (and hopefully around £2,200 in a few months) - really you're giving up quite a chunk of power, getting a smaller screen and worse speakers and now not really saving significantly for those sacrifices. Don't know if it's by design, but Apple have taken a lot of breathing room away from Microsoft pinched between their other OEMs below and Apple at around the same level.

 

[Queen6]

Did they change SL3 pricing at any point? I am sure the upgrades were cheaper but maybe I was looking at the wrong thing, $999 for 128GB SSD, $1,299 for the step up to 256GB with no other change. $300 for an extra 128GB, that is more than Apple. Never thought I would ever say that.

That's what's finally lent me away from the SL3 15" - to get the 512GB configuration is over £2,000, while the MBP 16" now comes with that storage tier for £2,400 (and hopefully around £2,200 in a few months) - really you're giving up quite a chunk of power, getting a smaller screen and worse speakers and now not really saving significantly for those sacrifices. Don't know if it's by design, but Apple have taken a lot of breathing room away from Microsoft pinched between their other OEMs below and Apple at around the same level.

Apple's latest move (way overdue) may make Microsoft reconsider it's pricing too. I understand Surface in many respects is a "Halo" marque to illustrate what can be done, equally it's now a growing business and should be reasonably competitive in it's class.

Charging what you please as you've deliberately designed it to be pretty much as difficult as possible to upgrade forcing inhouse upgrades is very much an Apple tactic and one that should be strongly discouraged. I'm not against the principle in smaller form factors, equally in full size notebooks it just smacks of reducing production cost and conveniently offering another path to hike the cost.

The likes of Apple and Microsoft have tremendous purchasing leverage, yet rarely share the benefit with the customer. As often said if people walk away the pricing will drop, or at very least the value quotient will increase. Ultimately Apple is presenting better value with the new 2019 16" MBP than it has in many a year for good reason, nor do I think Tim & Co have suddenly become benevolent in their old age...

Q-6

 

[Falhófnir]

Apple's latest move (way overdue) may make Microsoft reconsider it's pricing too. I understand Surface in many respects is a "Halo" marque to illustrate what can be done, equally it's now a growing business and should be reasonably competitive in it's class.

Charging what you please as you've deliberately designed it to be pretty much as difficult as possible to upgrade forcing inhouse upgrades is very much an Apple tactic and one that should be strongly discouraged. I'm not against the principle in smaller form factors, equally in full size notebooks it just smacks of reducing production cost and conveniently offering another path to hike the cost.

The likes of Apple and Microsoft have tremendous purchasing leverage, yet rarely share the benefit with the customer. As often said if people walk away the pricing will drop, or at very least the value quotient will increase. Ultimately Apple is presenting better value with the new 2019 16" MBP than it has in many a year for good reason, nor do I think Tim & Co have suddenly become benevolent in their old age...

Q-6

It definitely seems like they now have a far more precarious balancing act, they need to give you more for the money now for these products to make sense, but they're inevitably going to start treading on toes and putting pressure on the other OEMs who I'm assuming don't have huge margins to work with to also be upping their game... For the SL 3 15" the lower two tiers are already quite competitive, while the upper two could probably just about get away with doubling the storage amounts without completely destroying the Dell, HP etc midrange offerings. This would make the £1,699 SL3 the most rounded with the Ryzen 5, 16GB and 512GB - that compares to an e.g. HP envy 15 which comes with 4k,i7,16GB,512GB and an MX250 for £1,499 so still has a competitive advantage.

The real issue I think is going to be the Surface Book 3, if they're matching the approximate spec and price of the MBP again, then it's probably going to be something like an i7-10510U (4 core, TDP up to 20W for the tablet section) or maybe even a 10710U (6 core equivalent) - in the case of the latter as it's 10nm so gets more out of its TDP, that's actually not far off the performance of the full fat 6 core i7 in the MBP, raising the configurable TDP to 20W again would probably help with the sustained performance, too. And then RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 512GB storage, for around the same 2,399 as the MBP - that actually starts getting quite competitive with an XPS 15 which only has GTX 1650 graphics and only a 1080p screen below the ~2,000 mark. Starts trampling on Razer's basic blade configurations as well. I suppose the base SB3 15" might come with a 1660 with the 2060 reserved for the 2700 and 3K+ models? Starts getting a bit convoluted then, though and like you say these need to be products that stand on their own - in all a bit of a headache for MS.

 

[Queen6]

It definitely seems like they now have a far more precarious balancing act, they need to give you more for the money now for these products to make sense, but they're inevitably going to start treading on toes and putting pressure on the other OEMs who I'm assuming don't have huge margins to work with to also be upping their game... For the SL 3 15" the lower two tiers are already quite competitive, while the upper two could probably just about get away with doubling the storage amounts without completely destroying the Dell, HP etc midrange offerings. This would make the £1,699 SL3 the most rounded with the Ryzen 5, 16GB and 512GB - that compares to an e.g. HP envy 15 which comes with 4k,i7,16GB,512GB and an MX250 for £1,499 so still has a competitive advantage.

The real issue I think is going to be the Surface Book 3, if they're matching the approximate spec and price of the MBP again, then it's probably going to be something like an i7-10510U (4 core, TDP up to 20W for the tablet section) or maybe even a 10710U (6 core equivalent) - in the case of the latter as it's 10nm so gets more out of its TDP, that's actually not far off the performance of the full fat 6 core i7 in the MBP, raising the configurable TDP to 20W again would probably help with the sustained performance, too. And then RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 512GB storage, for around the same 2,399 as the MBP - that actually starts getting quite competitive with an XPS 15 which only has GTX 1650 graphics and only a 1080p screen below the ~2,000 mark. Starts trampling on Razer's basic blade configurations as well. I suppose the base SB3 15" might come with a 1660 with the 2060 reserved for the 2700 and 3K+ models? Starts getting a bit convoluted then, though and like you say these need to be products that stand on their own - in all a bit of a headache for MS.

Right now I think it's at a point where we as the consumers need to put the brakes on, as the prices are spiralling with no real justification other than the "Apple" model. I recent priced a Dell Area 51 Notebook locally, over $6K with the i9, 32GB RAM, 512 SSD + 1TB SSHD, totally not worth the asking price...

I also enjoy personal audio at the higher level, the same parallel's can be drawn, equally some newer companies are "breaking all the rules" by offering very high level hardware at reasonable cost likely at the displeasure of the far older established competitors who have been "enjoying" extensive margins and very controlled releases to customer.

nb. I opt for gaming notebooks over portable workstations as they offer the same if not better performance, as long as Xeon & EEC RAM is not a factor. I'm all for making $$$$ that said a balance must exist. Personally I like smaller companies that shake up the market and aren't afraid to have a go, pity Apple was once in that category, now Apple is solely about the money little else, until proved otherwise...

New players in the PC market are very much needed as the old school needs shaking up, as there's more performance on tap and value than some want to really let onto...

Q-6

 

[Falhófnir]

Right now I think it's at a point where we as the consumers need to put the brakes on, as the prices are spiralling with no real justification other than the "Apple" model. I recent priced a Dell Area 51 Notebook locally, over $6K with the i9, 32GB RAM, 512 SSD + 1TB SSHD, totally not worth the asking price...

I also enjoy personal audio at the higher level, the same parallel's can be drawn, equally some newer companies are "breaking all the rules" by offering very high level hardware at reasonable cost likely to the displeasure of the far older established competitors who have been "enjoying" extensive margins and very controlled releases to the cost of the customer.

nb. I opt for gaming notebooks over portable workstations as they offer the same if not better performance, as long as Xeon & EEC RAM is not a factor. I'm all for making $$$$ that said a balance must exist. Personally I like smaller companies that shake up the market and aren't afraid to have a go, pity Apple was once in that category, now Apple is solely about the money, until proved otherwise...

Q-6

True. Feels like the two big things that drove price escalation were (initially very expensive/GB) SSDs and nicer chassis/ sleek metal designs (so yes Apple definitely leading the way there) - SSDs are back to dropping in price now so there's not really an excuse in that anymore, and while the nicer designs definitely are worth paying more for, that alone isn't enough to justify $1,300+ ultrabooks with $290(retail) core i5 U chips, nice but by now pedestrian display panels and another $80 of SSD.

 

[Queen6]

True. Feels like the two big things that drove price escalation were (initially very expensive/GB) SSDs and nicer chassis/ sleek metal designs (so yes Apple definitely leading the way there) - SSDs are back to dropping in price now so there's not really an excuse in that anymore, and while the nicer designs definitely are worth paying more for, that alone isn't enough to justify $1,300+ ultrabooks with $290(retail) core i5 U chips, nice but by now pedestrian display panels and another $80 of SSD.

Intel above all needs waking up and looks like AMD is on a path to do that. As I've often said monopolies never serve the customer something both Apple and Intel are guilty of. Worst sin is regional pricing, companies that conduct such business practise I avoid by default as there's absolutely no excuse...

Q-6

 

[LeeW]

Can some of you verify what actual battery life in hours you are getting out of the Surface Pro 7 and the spec of the machine that would be awesome thanks.

 

[Dave245]

What does everyone think of the Surface Neo and Duo announcement that took place in October? Do you think the Neo is going to be positioned to replace the Surface Pro devices? are they suppose to be a tablet replacement?

I have to admit I really like the look of the Neo and Duo. However as an Apple user and being entrenched into the ecosystem, the Neo and or Duo will have some work to do in order to convince me, when it launches.

 

[Queen6]

What does everyone think of the Surface Neo and Duo announcement that took place in October? Do you think the Neo is going to be positioned to replace the Surface Pro devices? are they suppose to be a tablet replacement?

I have to admit I really like the look of the Neo and Duo. However as an Apple user and being entrenched into the ecosystem, the Neo and or Duo will have some work to do in order to convince me, when it launches.

I really like the concept of the Neo. Want to see how it develops, if can exceed my UMPC I'll likely pick one up...

Q-6

 

[TopherMan12]

What does everyone think of the Surface Neo and Duo announcement that took place in October? Do you think the Neo is going to be positioned to replace the Surface Pro devices? are they suppose to be a tablet replacement?

I have to admit I really like the look of the Neo and Duo. However as an Apple user and being entrenched into the ecosystem, the Neo and or Duo will have some work to do in order to convince me, when it launches.

Those two devices are really the only ones on my radar for 2020. The Duo is the way foldable phones should be made, imo. I don't understand why MS doesn't want to refer to it as a phone though. Maybe there is more to that. Either way, I wasn't keen on the Duo using Android at first, but after thinking on it, there isn't another option and it really doesn't matter as long as Microsoft can make the UI its own with Windows look and feel. But more importantly, Microsoft needs to create the interactivity between devices that make Apple products so great. If MS can carve out their own ecosystem within Android then that could be huge. Very interested in seeing more of this.

The Neo just looks slick as hell. Really glad to finally see a dedicated tablet from MS. This may be a day one purchase for me.

 

[Dave245]

I really like the concept of the Neo. Want to see how it develops, if can exceed my UMPC I'll likely pick one up...

Q-6

it will be interesting to see how it develops, especially if what was shown off in the keynote is going to be true. I really like the look of the hardware on Neo, I just hope Windows is improved for this device.

Also it will be interesting to see what price point MS set it at, I’m guessing over $1000 for Neo.
[automerge]1574878491[/automerge]

Those two devices are really the only ones on my radar for 2020. The Duo is the way foldable phones should be made, imo. I don't understand why MS doesn't want to refer to it as a phone though. Maybe there is more to that. Either way, I wasn't keen on the Duo using Android at first, but after thinking on it, there isn't another option and it really doesn't matter as long as Microsoft can make the UI its own with Windows look and feel. But more importantly, Microsoft needs to create the interactivity between devices that make Apple products so great. If MS can carve out their own ecosystem within Android then that could be huge. Very interested in seeing more of this.

The Neo just looks slick as hell. Really glad to finally see a dedicated tablet from MS. This may be a day one purchase for me.

I think if they can make the UI great, then Apple may have competition. Hardware wise I think the Neo looks great. Will it be a day one for me? I don’t think so, I’ll likely wait and see what people think, and wait for review units or any issues to be fixed/ironed out. If MS can do it, I will buy one and see how it fits into my life/work flow.

 

[Thysanoptera]

BestBuy has Surface Pro 7 i5/8/256 + keyboard + pen for $1k flat today. Pretty good deal.

 

[kazmac]

Interesting article at The Verge about MS' potential 2020 Surface hardware slate including some rumored updates.

The rumored^ modular concept for the SS3 is great.

^Spit-balling from an older patent

 

[c0ppo]

Maybe MS is waiting for that integrated TB3?
Surface Book is a fantastic idea, but not done quite right imho. Draining power while gaming for example isn't even a newbies error, and those GPU glitches when (de)attaching screen from base need to go.

I really hope that they fix some of the issues, and finally put in TB3 port. At least one, but to be honest, they need two. One on each side of the device.

Honestly, I would probably consider SB3 if it lives up to my expectations.

 

[xraydoc]

I wouldn't mind seeing a few of the following for the Surface Book 3 -

• Slimmer hinge that allowed a flatter closure
• Slot in the keyboard base to hold & charge the slim pen; keep the magnets on the edges of the tablet/screen for attachment when using in tablet mode
• Increased battery life in the screen/tablet portion if possible (even another 30 min would be welcomed)
• Option for a second SSD in the keyboard base (not including the SD card slot)
• Thunderbolt 3, both on-device and on an updated Surface Dock
• Two TB3/USB-C ports on the keyboard base and one on the screen/tablet; can drop the standard USB ports down to one and drop the 3.5mm jack. on the screen/tablet to make room (maybe add a 3.5mm jack to the keyboard base instead).
• 32GB RAM option for power-users along with the obvious generational increase in CPU/GPU
• Maybe bump the horizontal screen resolution on the 13.x" model to 3240x2160 (the 15" model's resolution) and increase the 15" a bit more
• Shrink screen bezels & push screen size out towards edges more

Just my 2¢

 

[Falhófnir]

I wouldn't mind seeing a few of the following for the Surface Book 3 -

• Slimmer hinge that allowed a flatter closure
• Slot in the keyboard base to hold & charge the slim pen; keep the magnets on the edges of the tablet/screen for attachment when using in tablet mode
• Increased battery life in the screen/tablet portion if possible (even another 30 min would be welcomed)
• Option for a second SSD in the keyboard base (not including the SD card slot)
• Thunderbolt 3, both on-device and on an updated Surface Dock
• Two TB3/USB-C ports on the keyboard base and one on the screen/tablet; can drop the standard USB ports down to one and drop the 3.5mm jack. on the screen/tablet to make room (maybe add a 3.5mm jack to the keyboard base instead).
• 32GB RAM option for power-users along with the obvious generational increase in CPU/GPU
• Maybe bump the horizontal screen resolution on the 13.x" model to 3240x2160 (the 15" model's resolution) and increase the 15" a bit more
• Shrink screen bezels & push screen size out towards edges more

Just my 2¢

Just the ability to open it up at all and replace/ service the RAM & SSD would be good. Given how the Laptop and Pro X have handled this it's not completely fanciful, either!

 

[Dave245]

I've been wondering, with Apple having released the 16" MacBook Pro that's addressed the main issues (keyboard being one) have they done so because of fear over people jumping to Surface devices. The 16" MacBook Pro does seem a lot more "pro" and even better value for money. Something Apple is not usually known for.

I do wonder if Apple are even looking at the Surface range and taking it seriously, especially after the Surface Duo and Neo were announced. Both the Neo and the Duo are appealing, whether they actually work in the real world, time will tell. I do think Apple should sit up and take notice of these two devices.

In my opinion they have the ability to be disruptive and if Apple sit back and rest on their laurels, there could be some very big shock waves. Apple did it with the iPhone and then again with the iPad, could it be that Microsoft have their turn with the Surface Duo and Neo? or could they flop big time?