Toslink Optical Audio Gone in 2018?

[F-Train]

I don't feel like continuing this adversarial debate. Not sure how the stick got stuck up you so far, but I hope you learn to live with it better. Sayonara

Sorry, I thought that I was talking about Bluetooth 5 and the mini's 3.5mm port.

I'm really impressed that you spent $1,000 on headphones, and no doubt several hundred more on a DAC, to listen to music on your phone. This probably means that you know much more about audio and music than I do. I just don't understand what your impressive expenditures, and comments, have to do with what I said.

Looking forward to your observations on Bluetooth 5 vs a 3.5mm port.

P.S. I do want to assure you that in my own small way, I try to listen to music. Here's a post that I wrote about going to Carnegie Hall last week, admittedly in seats that the owner of $1000 headphones might find wanting: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...na-display-music.2171149/page-2#post-27210546

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Sorry, I thought that I was talking about Bluetooth 5 and the mini's 3.5mm port.

I'm really impressed that you spent $1,000 on headphones, and no doubt several hundred more on a DAC, to listen to music on your phone. This probably means that you know much more about audio than I do. I just don't understand what your impressive expenditures, and related comments, have to do with what I said.

Looking forward to your observations on Bluetooth 5 vs a 3.5mm port.

P.S. In my own small way, I do try to listen to music. Here's a post that I wrote about going to Carnegie Hall last week, admittedly in seats that might not impress the owner of $1000 headphones: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...na-display-music.2171149/page-2#post-27210546

The original poster was concerned about losing the optical output (S/PDIF digital audio) on the mini, which he needs to connect to his stereo's optical input, to use his stereo's DAC for higher quality audio than the Mac Mini analog audio output, because the 3.5mm analog output wasn't high enough quality (nor does it carry 5.1 audio for movies). He couldn't use HDMI in his current setup.

The conversation definitely drifted away from the original topic over the course of the thread. But suggestions were made by others and myself on how to get digital audio out of the Mac Mini and into his stereo - such as my previous suggestion to maybe find a Nuforce MicroDAC (uDAC about $150-200) which converts USB audio to coaxial S/PDIF, or the AudioEngine D2 DAC (about $500) which can take USB input and then outputs the audio as both an optical out AND RCA analog out, with what might be a higher quality than even the DAC in his stereo. Plus the D2 means his computer doesn't have to be within "cable distance" of the stereo. But what we all didn't consider was that some of these may not support 5.1 movie soundtracks.

His concern was that Apple included the 3.5mm audio jack, but opted to pinch pennies and drop the optical output support where previous Macs had a combination 3.5mm analog and TOSLINK output. He wasn't arguing for keeping the 3.5mm analog jack which you said was outdated, he was arguing about why they would not keep optical if they're going to make the space for the 3.5mm jack.

Your comments on BT 5.0 can't help him unless he can find a high quality BT 5.0 receiver to connect to his stereo, that would bridge the Mac mini to the Stereo with the same quality audio that he'd get from a direct connection with optical TOSLINK connection. He might be wanting to listen to hi-res or lossless audio, and allow playback of 5.1 surround sound when connected to his TV. I haven't seen a BT 5.0 device that does that, and I've looked.

Can you point him to a Bluetooth 5.0 dongle that he can use now for adapting his stereo to receive lossless 16/44.1 audio from his Mac Mini? Or maybe he wants hi-res 24/96 audio, as well as 5.1 soundtracks, which TOSLINK already supports. It would need to sound as good as optical directly out of a Mac being fed into his stereo or audio video receiver.

This BT 5.0 receiver is probably not the one to get https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Transmitter-Receiver-HiGoing-Digital/dp/B07D1JM5S9 but it's hard to find a good one right now, at least when using Google to find them.

In "The 8 best Bluetooth Audio Receivers of 2019" article, none of these are BT 5.0, and the Audioengine B1 is by far the best one of the bunch and sounding like you're wired and not using compressed audio (it receives AAC or AptX HD audio and reclocks and upsamples to 24/96 to reduce jitter and improve clarity, I have one, it's great for stereo but not movies). https://www.lifewire.com/best-bluetooth-audio-receivers-4138227

As for my gear, I chose not to answer to your first request about how much the rest of my gear is worth, because you possibly seemed to be offended by how much I've spent on one pair of headphones (which are not my best ones). Yes, I have considerably more money invested in headphones, DAC, and amps, than makes sense to most people.

I've collected headphones, DACs and amps since 2007, so the value of my collection is considerable. My best headphone, 2-channel DAC, and balanced headphone amp combo, that connects to the USB or Optical out of my MacBook, would still give any of the best currently produced rigs a run for their money, and would set you back about 5 figures.

It's a wonder that I still don't pay more than $600-700 for an audio video receiver, or TV, or a pair of speakers.

 

[F-Train]

Hi @HeadphoneAddict

So you've now written four posts in response to mine, including ten paragraphs in your latest, and you still have not a single firsthand observation to make about Bluetooth 5 vs a 3.5mm port.

The only thing that your latest post adds is that you've spent a lot more than $1000 on headphones and a lot of money on DACS. I realise at this point that you get pleasure from telling people that you've spent serious money on this stuff. The thing is, the amount of money that you spend isn't relevant.

Still waiting for you to say something concrete, preferably based on first-hand knowledge, but at this point even theoretical would be a start, about Bluetooth 5. The thing is, it's now clear that you know nothing about the subject. Which is kid of surprising, because audiophiles like you should be on top of this.

Maybe the best idea would be to drop the subject, and refrain from telling people how much money you spend, until you make an effort to educate yourself. It's not like Bluetooth 5 is a secret.

Cheers

 

[Duncan68]

 

[masterbaron]

it’s hard to fathom why Apple would keep the 3.5mm port but remove the digital out from the Mini.

The 3.5 jack supports analog connectivity - HDMI and USB support digital thus the Toslink becomes non-essential as surround is available via HDMI. What is limiting is the number of ports which now necessitates a hub to split out specific signals for those who require them.

 

[rmdeluca]

I think that its days are numbered. Once BlueTooth 5 is fully implemented, it's quite liable to be dropped.

I think that people purchasing sound gear should do so on the assumption that the 3.5mm port is on the way out. Same for USB-A, which is one of the reasons that I suggested earlier that people pass on USB 2.0 audio interfaces.

In my view, the future of sound, whether production or consumption, is USB 3.1/TB3 and Bluetooth 5. The latter has so much potential that I can't think of a reason why someone would want a 3.5mm port, apart from a desire to use legacy gear, gear that in most cases probably didn't cost much in the first place. To be blunt, how long is Apple supposed to cater to people who want a port to plug in five year old, wired $50 headphones? What about $200 headphones? They're already plugged into a USB DAC.

Eh, BT has latency that isn’t present over the 3.5mm jack. If we dispense with the audiophile discussion for a moment, a very common use case for Macs is the amateur song writer / musician. A $100 set of headphones plugged into the 3.5mm jack is perfect to do live tracking and even to mix on with some practice.

BT 5.0’s higher bandwidth isn’t going to suddenly solve the latency problem because that’s more a function of the codec. What LDAC does do is finally bring wireless audio to within a hair’s width of lossless, so for music playback it’s great.

I’m of the mindset that Apple omitting the $2 worth of parts needed to keep Toslink support was probably one generation premature. There’s still a lot of hardware (even made in 2019) that supports Toslink.

 

[masterbaron]

omitting Toslink support was probably one generation premature

All in the name of profit ... no matter your rig or your investment the pursuit of "the zone" is costly, time-consuming and fraught with conflicting choices - once we attain balance we generally want to maintain it - being "disruptive" is Apple's paradigm and our disadvantage ... the "right time" is when we each individually determine it's the right time to move on from a technology but Apple has the reins and thus control over the direction ... seems like it will never be the right time and maybe that's what Apple is thinking...

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Hi @HeadphoneAddict

So you've now written four posts in response to mine, including ten paragraphs in your latest, and you still have not a single firsthand observation to make about Bluetooth 5 vs a 3.5mm port.

The only thing that your latest post adds is that you've spent a lot more than $1000 on headphones and a lot of money on DACS. I realise at this point that you get pleasure from telling people that you've spent serious money on this stuff. The thing is, the amount of money that you spend isn't relevant.

Still waiting for you to say something concrete, preferably based on first-hand knowledge, but at this point even theoretical would be a start, about Bluetooth 5. The thing is, it's now clear that you know nothing about the subject. Which is kid of surprising, because audiophiles like you should be on top of this.

Maybe the best idea would be to drop the subject, and refrain from telling people how much money you spend, until you make an effort to educate yourself. It's not like Bluetooth 5 is a secret.

Cheers

Your previous post made you sound like you decided to be reasonable. I was wrong. I summarized what this thread was about. I reminded you of what the OP was looking for as a solution, and that your suggestion may not meet his requirements.

I asked for suggestions of devices that would. I posted the kinds of devices that I could find for BT 5 receivers and the pickings for a high quality device to match TOSLINK quality were slim to none, and don't really meet the OP's requirements.

Now you challenge me for not trying it out myself in such a short period of time, after I posted that all I could find was cheap $30 potential POS for BT 5.0. I wouldn't even had received something from Amazon until tomorrow, but that wouldn't be fast enough for you.

AGAIN, WHERE AND HOW AM I GOING TO TEST BT 5.0 IN SUCH A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, nor did you share WHAT WOULD YOU CHOOSE? YOU GIVE ME DEADLINE without telling me I'm under one.

I'm not doubting that BT 5.0 is better than BT 4.x, and I have devices that support 2-channel APtX HD (sp) that sound great. BUT THEY ARE NOT NEARLY AS GOOD AS TOSLINK INTO A NICE STEREO RECEIVER, and YOU FAILED TO RESPOND TO MY CONCERNS ABOUT WHICH BT 5.0 DEVICE THAT YOU WOULD RECOMMEND FOR HIM THAT WOULD FIT HIS REQUIREMENTS. It's not my responsibility to go out and spend my money to test your theory.

YOU ALSO FAILED TO RESPOND TO MY UNCERTAINTY ABOUT WHETHER BT 5.0 CAN SUPPORT 5.1 SURROUND SOUND.

And you hounded me to provide you with information about my gear, I was reluctant, but you tricked me into doing it, and then called me a braggart again. I'm not falling for your straw man arguments.

F-Train, go F-yourself. I'm outta here. You can say all the derogatory things you want about what and who you think I am, but you don't know me. I won't respond again.

 

[masterbaron]

In other news Toslink is missing in the new Mac Mini

 

[F-Train]

Eh, BT has latency that isn’t present over the 3.5mm jack. If we dispense with the audiophile discussion for a moment, a very common use case for Macs is the amateur song writer / musician. A $100 set of headphones plugged into the 3.5mm jack is perfect to do live tracking and even to mix on with some practice.

BT 5.0’s higher bandwidth isn’t going to suddenly solve the latency problem because that’s more a function of the codec. What LDAC does do is finally bring wireless audio to within a hair’s width of lossless, so for music playback it’s great.

I’m of the mindset that Apple omitting the $2 worth of parts needed to keep Toslink support was probably one generation premature. There’s still a lot of hardware (even made in 2019) that supports Toslink.

Hi @rmdeluca, just saw this. As always, a pleasure to read your posts.

I’m already using BlueTooth to monitor the recording of 24-bit audio with an iOS device and a DPA iOS DAC and DPA microphone. This setup, via the DPA d:vice, is being widely used for journalism, documentary production and music. For many purposes, latency is not nearly as problematic as people often think it is.

Indeed, the ability to use Bluetooth to monitor recording on DPA’s d:vice is a distinct advantage over the Lectrosonics PDR, which I also have, and which is widely used when wireless is problematic (e.g. reality TV, stunt scenes, etc). The only way to monitor sound on a Lectrosonics PDR is to plug in headphones, which is unrealistic - indeed, defeats the whole point - in almost all cases where that recorder is used.

The attraction of BlueTooth 5 is not just bandwidth “quantity”. For example, currently one can only use the d:vice and BlueTooth to connect to one device. This means that I can use an iPhone’s BlueTooth to monitor recording, but not for anything else. BlueTooth 5 will change that.

Today, Sound Devices announced a new US$9,000 recorder with BlueTooth built in. It’s not clear yet what the scope of the BlueTooth connection is. It is certainly for remote control of the recorder, but it may also have a monitoring function. I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t, because that has been coming on professional gear of this kind for a couple of years.

On the consumption side, which is what this thread is mostly about, it’s clear to me that we are headed for USB 3.1/TB3 and BlueTooth 5. I think that TOSlink is dead, and it would seem clear that Apple isn’t even the lead in its demise.

 

[D.T.]

This seems appropriate for this thread ...

I am a big fan of hearing music with a good headphone setup. So much, that my quest for finding a clean audio source led me to my 1st Mac purchase in 2011, a Mac Mini.

Before I had bought the Mini, I had tried various USB powered DACS and struggled to get consistent sound quality with my PC and laptop (pops and clicks). The 2011 Mac Mini had Optical Out and was considered a very clean source with low jitter. I paired it with a Schiit Bifrost DAC and after trying their USB and Optical implementation, I ended up going the Optical route as it sounded better to me. I believe even the talented folks over at Schiit now acknowledge that most USB implementations back in those days were not upto the mark (including their own)

FWIW, the USB implementation in Schiit's newest Modi (V3) is outstanding. I'm using optical out from my '15 MBP just to free up an extra USB port, but having done several listening tests, I'd be more than happy to use USB (and there have been a few objective tests that support the excellent USB option)

If anyone is looking to just get a good quality DAC for the desktop, for headphones and/or speakers, the Modi 3 is a stellar deal, it supports optical, Coax and USB and the B-stock units are basically mint, full warranty, for $10 cheaper - if you're using headphones, you could match it up with their Magni 3 or Vali 2 headphone amp, either will drive high impedance cans, both sound terrific (again, stunning bang-for-the-buck), the Vali 2 is extra fun as it's a hybrid tube (with a preamp out). For $89 (BStock), or $99 regular price, plus $$89/99/149 depending on amp combo, it's a slick desktop DAC/headphone amp/pre amp setup, small, stacks nicely (yes, it's a stack ... of ... Schiit ... ), nice looking as well (brush aluminum).

 

[SandboxGeneral]

I agree with @D.T. about the current USB quality. I'm using a 2014 Mac mini hooked up to a Schiit Modi Multibit via USB and the Schiit Magni 3 headphone amp. I'm also using the beyerdynamic DT 880 chrome special editions and the performance and quality of my music is outstanding.

 

[palebluedot]

I just tried my (coil whiney) new Mac Mini with my PC pass through audio setup. It is terrible. On both the SoundBlaster Z and Real Tek (internal mobo) pass through. Line noise, low quality. I had the PERFECT setup with optical audio out/in on my MM 2012. Sigh. I dont have room for a huge DAC or dongles... the whole reason I bought the mini is so that I can have a Mac on limited desk space. Really wish TOSLINK still worked. Funny enough, the mini TOSLINK cable still fits inside and it thinks it is a headphone

 

[SandboxGeneral]

I just tried my (coil whiney) new Mac Mini with my PC pass through audio setup. It is terrible. On both the SoundBlaster Z and Real Tek (internal mobo) pass through. Line noise, low quality. I had the PERFECT setup with optical audio out/in on my MM 2012. Sigh. I dont have room for a huge DAC or dongles... the whole reason I bought the mini is so that I can have a Mac on limited desk space. Really wish TOSLINK still worked. Funny enough, the mini TOSLINK cable still fits inside and it thinks it is a headphone

If you want to change things up a bit, and have a few bucks to spend, here is what I have for a setup on my Mac mini.

Schiit Magni amp https://www.schiit.com/products/magni-1
Schiit Modi multibit DAC (or get the less expensive Modi 3) https://www.schiit.com/products/modi-1
To clean up the line noise try the Schiit Wyrd https://www.schiit.com/products/wyrd

Of course this means switching to USB from Toslink, but my setup sounds amazing. I don't have any line noise so I don't have or have ever used the Schiit Wyrd though.

You can also check out MassDrop for other headphone amps and DAC's if Schiit isn't to your liking.

These Schiit components are small, 5 x 3.5 x 1.25 inches and silver and look like a perfect pairing to the Mac.

 

[Synchro3]

Or just buy the Caldigit TS3 Plus and have TosLink again.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

If you want to change things up a bit, and have a few bucks to spend, here is what I have for a setup on my Mac mini.

Schiit Magni amp https://www.schiit.com/products/magni-1
Schiit Modi multibit DAC (or get the less expensive Modi 3) https://www.schiit.com/products/modi-1
To clean up the line noise try the Schiit Wyrd https://www.schiit.com/products/wyrd

Of course this means switching to USB from Toslink, but my setup sounds amazing. I don't have any line noise so I don't have or have ever used the Schiit Wyrd though.

You can also check out MassDrop for other headphone amps and DAC's if Schiit isn't to your liking.

These Schiit components are small, 5 x 3.5 x 1.25 inches and silver and look like a perfect pairing to the Mac.

If all he needs is a high quality DAC to feed into another amp (home receiver for instance) then he won't need the Magni, just the Schitt Modi DAC which will have a very good quality RCA output from any digital input (USB, optical, coaxial).

And while these are very small and match the color of the Macs, there are smaller high-end sounding USB DACs with amps. The Audioengine D3 is tiny with a fantastic sounding 3.5mm output for feeding headphones or feeding another amplifier as a "pre-amp". For someone who wants it as compact as possible (pack of wriggly's gum size), this would be my #1 recommendation.

I think it's better than a similar sized Dragonfly and on par with a Headamp Pico DAC + Pico Slim amp combo (in power and sound). None of these have as much power output as the Schitt Audio Magni amp, but they are also the size of a pack of gum to a pack of cigarettes, depending on what you get.

 

[palebluedot]

If all he needs is a high quality DAC to feed into another amp (home receiver for instance) then he won't need the Magni, just the Schitt Modi DAC which will have a very good quality RCA output from any digital input (USB, optical, coaxial).

And while these are very small and match the color of the Macs, there are smaller high-end sounding USB DACs with amps. The Audioengine D3 is tiny with a fantastic sounding 3.5mm output for feeding headphones or feeding another amplifier as a "pre-amp". For someone who wants it as compact as possible (pack of wriggly's gum size), this would be my #1 recommendation.

I think it's better than a similar sized Dragonfly and on par with a Headamp Pico DAC + Pico Slim amp combo (in power and sound). None of these have as much power output as the Schitt Audio Magni amp, but they are also the size of a pack of gum to a pack of cigarettes, depending on what you get.

I do wish there was a USB to USB audio transfer or some other "mini" solution that didn't require a true DAC. My PC has a good DAC built into the card so I don't really need a second DAC, if I understand how they work (and I may not).

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

I do wish there was a USB to USB audio transfer or some other "mini" solution that didn't require a true DAC. My PC has a good DAC built into the card so I don't really need a second DAC, if I understand how they work (and I may not).

A good USB to SPDIF converter would let you feed optical or coax digital into the PC. I found the Nuforce uDAC (microDAC) was great at converting USB to coaxial digital, but they don't make them anymore after Optima took over Nuforce.

Behringer used to make a USB to SPDIF adapter. My CEntrance HiFi-M8 is an excellent USB DAC with optical output, but it's also no longer made.

But you'd be surprised out how good a nice USB to analog audio DAC can sound for $100-200 (Audioengine D3). And these days a $400 unit (BlueDAC used wired) can sound as good as a $1000 unit did 10 years ago.

 

[godzfire]

Sooooo, what are my options getting external sound out of my Mini to external speakers not using the analog headphone jack?

 

[D.T.]

Sooooo, what are my options getting external sound out of my Mini to external speakers not using the analog headphone jack?

External DAC, that'll give you nice, high quality conversion to an analog source (for other components). Plugged into a USB port, outputs analog - so either Mini >> DAC >> Speakers (if powered), or Mini >> DAC >> Amp >> Speakers (if not).

The Schiit Modi 3, currently available in B-stock for $79 is a heck of product, punches way above its class, but there are several options in the sub-$200 DAC category.

 

[Kevbasscat]

External DAC, that'll give you nice, high quality conversion to an analog source (for other components). Plugged into a USB port, outputs analog - so either Mini >> DAC >> Speakers (if powered), or Mini >> DAC >> Amp >> Speakers (if not).

The Schiit Modi 3, currently available in B-stock for $79 is a heck of product, punches way above its class, but there are several options in the sub-$200 DAC category.

Where are they selling the Schiit Modi 3 at this price? I'd like to buy one this minute!

 

[D.T.]

Where are they selling the Schiit Modi 3 at this price? I'd like to buy one this minute!

Direct, from their B-stock:

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Designed and Built in Texas and California

www.schiit.com

Full warranty, the only difference is no 15 days return period. The satin, aluminum finish would be easy to buff out any blemishes, though both my B-stock items looked brand new, sounds like that's the usual case.

Oops, no Modi 3s at the moment, they go SUPER quick, like 10 in a couple of days, just keep an eye out!

 

[Kevbasscat]

Direct, from their B-stock:

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Designed and Built in Texas and California

www.schiit.com

Full warranty, the only difference is no 15 days return period. The satin, aluminum finish would be easy to buff out any blemishes, though both my B-stock items looked brand new, sounds like that's the usual case.

Oops, no Modi 3s at the moment, they go SUPER quick, like 10 in a couple of days, just keep an eye out!

THANK YOU!

 

[D.T.]

@Kevbasscat Hey dude, see my post above, I saw them a few/several days ago, but they're gone again, just watch that page. Sorry about that!

 

[Kevbasscat]

@Kevbasscat Hey dude, see my post above, I saw them a few/several days ago, but they're gone again, just watch that page. Sorry about that!

That's fine I needed a Magni 3 more anyway, and I picked one up for $79. So Thanks! Worked out perfect! It's the week of great deals for me. I picked up a pair of Yamaha HS8's used in perfect condition for $350, and they just arrived 20 mins ago. I'm stoked.