Tried the new Surface Pro 7 today...

[Digitalguy]

If you think the Surface Pro is a tablet first, go ahead sell your Surface Pro keyboard and use it as a tablet only.

As an owner of a Surface Pro, I stay with my statement, that the Surface Pro is a laptop first, with features like touch screen and stylus support.

In your biased view you didn't even try to understand what I was saying... I never said Surface pro is a tablet first. I don't use any of my ipads without a keyboard. And I have said elsewhere I even prefer the keyboard system in the ipad to the one in the surface. You may have your view of what a tablet is, but I don't consider devices in the way people try to fit them in categories.
I am glad surface exists because it pushes apple to improve the ipad pro (it happens in the other direction as well). Everyone has their priorities.
Some of mine are power in a portable and silent device, LTE, battery life. Ipads were not powerful enough until the pro came along. Surface were not silent and didn't have LTE and good battery life until the surface pro 5 arrived (with fanless full i5, not the low wattage you have in Y chips), LTE and almost ipad like battery life (contrary to the pro 4 that had worse battery life than the pro 3). But MS went back by not offering LTE in the pro 6 and I have gone ipad for my on the go device and my home devices. Also MS has no competition for the mid-size ipad pros. Its surface go is underpowered and the X is a competitor for the 12.9, not the rest of the line, and it's heavier and still has the same flawed keyboard mechanism. In the meantime, unfortunately Apple made the keyboard worse on the 3rd gen (at least for those like me that keep it always on), by making it heavier and more unbalanced so that now it's not lappable anymore...

 

[pika2000]

In your biased view you didn't even try to understand what I was saying... I never said Surface pro is a tablet first. I don't use any of my ipads without a keyboard. And I have said elsewhere I even prefer the keyboard system in the ipad to the one in the surface. You may have your view of what a tablet is, but I don't consider devices in the way people try to fit them in categories.
I am glad surface exists because it pushes apple to improve the ipad pro (it happens in the other direction as well). Everyone has their priorities.

You called me biased, yet you yourself are biased.

Anyway, looks like this is a pointless banter just because you have a bias. Meanwhile, I made my statement as a Surface Pro owner and user. I stand with my statement, that the Surface Pro is a laptop first.

 

[polbit]

My workflow is varied as I do a lot of things, from data sciences and coding to music and video production, as well as your typical off-time consumption. Traditional laptop has lost its charm for me - too inflexible while not powerful enough for heavy lifting. I built a high-end desktop PC, and in process of selling my MBP. I find the Surface Pro great for 70% of what I do away from my office, while nothing beats the iPad Pro for the other 30%. Rigidly categorizing them and then pronouncing one a winner is missing the point of these versatile devices - they simply work for my needs.

Try one, or both, and see how it fits into what you do or want to do. Don't let other people's prejudices define how you want to work.

 

[TopherMan12]

You called me biased, yet you yourself are biased.

Anyway, looks like this is a pointless banter just because you have a bias. Meanwhile, I made my statement as a Surface Pro owner and user. I stand with my statement, that the Surface Pro is a laptop first.

It is laptop for you "first", but not everyone. When I had a Surface Pro, I used it more in tablet mode. And since the keyboard is optional, I'd say Microsoft views it as a tablet first as well.

 

[YaBe]

The Surface products are indeed nice but Windows alone is a dealbreaker.

I hear that a lot, but I find it hard to believe
Once you start using it you realize that 2019 won't feel like 1994.. I mean things have changed, A LOT!

Use qWin 10 at work every day, ended up buying a Surface Laptop 3, OS X was/ is nice but it is not what it used to be.

As long as I can run the programs (not "apps") that I need I am happy.

 

[Digitalguy]

You called me biased, yet you yourself are biased.

Anyway, looks like this is a pointless banter just because you have a bias. Meanwhile, I made my statement as a Surface Pro owner and user. I stand with my statement, that the Surface Pro is a laptop first.

that's the answer when you lack arguments. Keep having your categories. Other people see things differently.
I didn't even contradict you on your laptop first conviction. I just said that based on your classification, I use my ipads as laptops first (but I don't care about categories).
Being someone that has several windows devices, several ipads, an android phone and macbook, I am probably one of the least biased people on this macrumors forums. Here there is a majority of Apple fanboys and some Apple haters. I am neither (fortunately also some balanced people...). I love Apple but contrary to many people here I also like windows and macos (yes both at the same time), and I am more than happy with my Android phone. I take what I consider the best of each, for different purposes.... But you can keep on calling me biased...
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My workflow is varied as I do a lot of things, from data sciences and coding to music and video production, as well as your typical off-time consumption. Traditional laptop has lost its charm for me - too inflexible while not powerful enough for heavy lifting. I built a high-end desktop PC, and in process of selling my MBP. I find the Surface Pro great for 70% of what I do away from my office, while nothing beats the iPad Pro for the other 30%. Rigidly categorizing them and then pronouncing one a winner is missing the point of these versatile devices - they simply work for my needs.

Try one, or both, and see how it fits into what you do or want to do. Don't let other people's prejudices define how you want to work.

nice too see some open-minded people on this forum

 

[TopherMan12]

I hear that a lot, but I find it hard to believe

Why is that hard to believe? If he isn't going to buy a tablet or laptop because it has Windows on it then that is, by definition, a deal breaker......for him. For plenty of others, the Apple symbol on the side of a laptop or computer is a deal breaker for them.

 

[YaBe]

Why is that hard to believe? If he isn't going to buy a tablet or laptop because it has Windows on it then that is, by definition, a deal breaker......for him. For plenty of others, the Apple symbol on the side of a laptop or computer is a deal breaker for them.

I guess you missed my point, but oh well..

 

[TopherMan12]

I guess you missed my point, but oh well..

No, I just don't think you were making a very good one. Oh well...

 

[pika2000]

It is laptop for you "first", but not everyone. When I had a Surface Pro, I used it more in tablet mode. And since the keyboard is optional, I'd say Microsoft views it as a tablet first as well.

Then use the Surface Pro without the keyboard full time, and see how far you can go.

Even Microsoft advertised the Surface Pro with the keyboard attached at all times. It is a laptop first. Microsoft sold the keyboard separately is simply a profit maximizer.
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that's the answer when you lack arguments. Keep having your categories. Other people see things differently.
I didn't even contradict you on your laptop first conviction. I just said that based on your classification, I use my ipads as laptops first (but I don't care about categories).
Being someone that has several windows devices, several ipads, an android phone and macbook, I am probably one of the least biased people on this macrumors forums. Here there is a majority of Apple fanboys and some Apple haters. I am neither (fortunately also some balanced people...). I love Apple but contrary to many people here I also like windows and macos (yes both at the same time), and I am more than happy with my Android phone. I take what I consider the best of each, for different purposes.... But you can keep on calling me biased...

Yeah, backtracking when your own bias is being called on. Calling other biased yet refused to acknowledged yours.

Again, pointless banter, so enough for me. Good day.

 

[Digitalguy]

Yeah, backtracking when your own bias is being called on. Calling other biased yet refused to acknowledged yours.

Again, pointless banter, so enough for me. Good day.

yeah, pointless indeed to keep on talking given your replies, others can read and make their opinion on whether what you say about what I wrote is true or not

 

[TopherMan12]

Then use the Surface Pro without the keyboard full time, and see how far you can go.

As far as you can go using any tablet as a tablet. Even further actually since you can turn tablet mode off even without a keyboard.

Even Microsoft advertised the Surface Pro with the keyboard attached at all times. It is a laptop first. Microsoft sold the keyboard separately is simply a profit maximizer.

And for others it is a tablet first. Not sure why this is hard.

 

[rowspaxe]

Things are not so simple. A question that should be asked is probably ”What’s a tablet?” (which alone would be good for a whole thread).

Further to the point--what's an app? When I use surface I touch browse with firefox. A far better
experience than ios safari. If you want "an app for everything", the Surface will frustrate you. If you
productivity centered (Office, OneNote, etc), and want to do some touch browsing, the Surface will
be a very useful tablet 2 in 1. Also windows Youtube in a browser far better than ios mobile app--imo

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

My biggest disappointment was the pencil. There's definitely a lag that is very noticeable. As my most active use of my iPad Pro is as a pen tablet, this could be a bit of a deal-killer for me. I think that the lag would become less apparent with regular use, but coming directly from an iPad Pro and Apple Pencil, it really stood out for me.

In Windows the pen lag depends on the program you use. I don't know in which program you tried the MS pen, but in most drawing programs there is no noticeable lag at all. So don't dismiss it on forehand. Next time try some other apps/programs.
Of course it also depends if you are using a huge brush or drawing on a huge canvas of thousands of pixels width and height. But that goes without saying.

 

[RevTEG]

So far, it’s just a general flakiness: Screens being blank and needing to be refreshed, browser windows scrolled, formatting for apps off. Some of it are the apps themselves. iPad OS apparently took some developers by surprise, and they are playing catch-up.

As to durability, I can’t spend $1500 on something I don’t trust. It sounds like you’ve had good experiences with yours, others haven’t. I’m a bit of a super-user And I travel a ton. If I have to wait — or pick something I’m more comfortable with — I will, even if it seems irrational.

yeah I’m not having those issues. There have been threads that users updated when apps Updated their formatting for the 12.9. Those are old threads. Most all apps have updated. Apple set deadlines for those things. PadOS didn’t change the app formatting. So developers weren't caught off-guard. It sounds like you haven’t actually been using any of the new iPads?

There’s always people that have bad experiences with any product. Just check the reviews and forums for any vehicle ever made, including the one you may own. You can’t base your judgements on a few youtubers or forum post. The mass majority of users are not reporting on formers. Apple has already proven that the the current iPads exceed former generations in strength and tolerance.

I’m sure you travel a lot but I’d put my travel schedule up against just about anybody. I’ve been traveling full time for 25 years (this past October 12) while running an international company.

As for as wasting $1,500 on something you don’t trust? Well I agree, I wouldn’t want to waste that much either. However, your thinking is slightly off... You don’t have to worry about trusting any iPad. Apple care takes any would be trust issues out of the equation. Apple Care provides years of worry free use. The new iPads have been a great investment for my team.

Life‘s complicated, don’t “over think” the small stuff. #AppleCare

 

[jjudson]

In Windows the pen lag depends on the program you use. I don't know in which program you tried the MS pen, but in most drawing programs there is no noticeable lag at all. So don't dismiss it on forehand. Next time try some other apps/programs.
Of course it also depends if you are using a huge brush or drawing on a huge canvas of thousands of pixels width and height. But that goes without saying.

In this particular case, I was using the pencil brush in OneNote.

 

[dwig]

Has anyone tried the Microsoft Pro X yet?

Would love to hear about this and how it copes with heavy usage like video editing in PP CC

Video editing in Adobe Pp/CC is a no-go.

The CC apps require an x86 64bit OS, either macOS or Windows. Natively, the 64bit ARM based Windows on the Pro X is incompatible and its x86 emulation only supports 32bit x86 applications.

 

[leebroath]

Video editing in Adobe Pp/CC is a no-go.

The CC apps require an x86 64bit OS, either macOS or Windows. Natively, the 64bit ARM based Windows on the Pro X is incompatible and its x86 emulation only supports 32bit x86 applications.

Ok thanks, so I presume LumaFusion will have an App for Windows then?

Is so, I wonder how it would cope editing and exporting

 

[dwig]

Ok thanks, so I presume LumaFusion will have an App for Windows then?

Is so, I wonder how it would cope editing and exporting

The Surface Pro X will not be suitable for any serious video editing for some time.

If it, and similar ARM based Windows devices, prove successful then possibly software developers will release native ARM versions of their applications. From the spin MS has given the device, I wouldn't expect much in the way of ARM native applications outside of the realm of road warrior "office" apps in the near future. Powerful media creation tools won't exist for awhile. Until then, only the light duty Windows Store apps or older x86 apps that are 32bit.

 

[sracer]

I've never seen the iPad Pro to the Surface Pro as an apples to apples comparison (no pun intended). The Surface Pro is a laptop trying to be a tablet and the iPad Pro is a tablet trying to be a laptop.

That being said, I use a (non-pro) iPad and a Surface Laptop daily for work and recreation and I'm definitely a fan of both product lines. It's just that they fill different niches and have different strengths/weaknesses.

This. So much this.

I was >< this close to my ultimate converged device... it was the Google Pixelbook. But isn't there yet because Linux app support is far from being robust enough to handle desktop-strength tasks. So I still use it, but as a secondary device.

Until then, I'm going with the flow and going with two separate devices and use them for what they each do best. I too am using a non-Pro iPad w/Pencil. It is for me, a no compromise device for serious note-taking and recreation. It has become an invaluable component to my workflows.

I'm currently using a 2017 Macbook Air for my notebook but I fell in love with the Surface laptop and will get one when it is time to move on from my MBA.

 

[kazmac]

Hi @jjudson
Thank you for the detailed review. Pen lag kills Surface Pros for me (I experienced this myself at a Best Buy this a.m.)

I did not have as much time to test as I would like, but I definitely preferred the Pro 7 over the laptops this year for several reasons (One of the SL3s on display had visible defects (I could see under the keyboard of the matte black 13.5" SL3).

That said the SP7 was very responsive and light. I really like the type cover.

I am bummed by the negative reviews of the 15" SL3s, I absolutely adored the 13.5" SL2. I think it's a wonderful laptop save for lack of ports and integrated gpu. So comfortable to type on and look at.

Oh well.

I realize I will need two devices (laptop and tablet) going forward. We'll see.

 

[YaBe]

Received my Surface Book 13 Black yesterday, and I have to admit, after feeling a little dirty about owning a Microsoft laptop after so many years of Apple, this is the best laptop I have ever owned.

Kudos to Microsoft you turned me into a "believer".
On the Pro so far:
It's a very well made device, solid and excellent to use, the touch screen is an added bonus, the magnetic charger is something nice to have back, the keyboard is second to none.

Also, nice the USB for charging built into the charger, a nice touch and it shows they really put a lot of thoughts on how a user will use the computer.

LOVE the 3:2 aspect ratio, while it makes the laptop "taller" it gives you lots of space for media (a little less nice for vide, but meh.).

Loggin in with the camera is BLAZING fast and very accurate, never thought I liked that.

On the Cons:
Limited ports (even if still better than Apple USBC ONLY) proprietary charger (you can still use common USBC charger if wanted).
Another negative is the speaker, while the sound is good/great up to 50% volume(which is still perfectly fine most of the time), anything above that can create some distortion.

Side note:
The Black finish is fantastic, maybe a fingerprint magnet, but so far so good, and it looks sexy!


P.S.
I am used to Windows 10 and to me, it is NOT a con, it actually performs nicely and while it is no OS X is perfectly fine for what I do, will def miss some OS X features (spring-loaded folders for example), but loving every second of my "Surface Experience"

 

[dwig]

...
I am used to Windows 10 and to me, it is NOT a con, it actually performs nicely and while it is no OS X is perfectly fine for what I do, will def miss some OS X features (spring-loaded folders for example), but loving every second of my "Surface Experience"

I've used both OSX and Windows side by side for several decades (began with OSX in its beta days and the antique MacOS since v7, Windows since v3.0, and MS-DOS before that) and have always found that when using on I miss some feature of the other. In recent years since the first Win10 release, I've generally preferred Win10 overall, but not without lamenting that some macOS functionality isn't there. I do find that I grumble at poorly implemented functionality, as opposed to missing functionality, on macOS far more than on Windows 10.

 

[YaBe]

I've used both OSX and Windows side by side for several decades (began with OSX in its beta days and the antique MacOS since v7, Windows since v3.0, and MS-DOS before that) and have always found that when using on I miss some feature of the other. In recent years since the first Win10 release, I've generally preferred Win10 overall, but not without lamenting that some macOS functionality isn't there. I do find that I grumble at poorly implemented functionality, as opposed to missing functionality, on macOS far more than on Windows 10.

I switched back in the OS X release days, switched BECAUSE of how cool OS X looked, and I remember being first in at COMPUSA buying the retail version.

Kept using windows for some work-related stuff but was OS X like 99% of the time.

Fast forward 18 years and I am back Windows only, and not regretting a bit, their hardware (MS) is what Apple Should be, magnetic charger (yes they had it....) USB a and C, Touch for when you need it (no gorilla arms needed ) slick and well built with a keyboard that is a pleasure to type on, a power brick with added functionality, I mean I remember my first iBook, well yesterday the excitement and joy was the same.

Windows really made huge leaps and is getting there, it's not without issue, but I felt lately OS X was getting more troublesome.
The first years of Intel were good/great, but nothing compares to what the PowerPC era was, at least to me.

 

[JayMysterio]

I guess you missed my point, but oh well..

I'm afraid I'd be one of those that missed your point as well.

I have a Surface Pro 3, at the time IOS apps were pretty limited and there was no Procreate. So the idea of being able to use a full drawing program like Clip Studio on a tablet form factor was very appealing. It was fun, but the pen wasn't up to snuff for me, and windows itself would drive me nuts at times with endless updates that bogged me down. I still have the Surface Pro, as I found I could play a few Steam games on it, but I went back to iPads because that was comfortable for me.

Since that time of course, Procreate now exists, there is a sub model of Clip Studio that is everything the desktop version is, and Adobe is trying ease their way onto IOS. If one's issue is Windows itself, it's not hard to understand why you wouldn't stay with Surface products. Telling someone that Windows has gotten so much better, is like asking them to keep getting Windows products because they promise it will be better than the last. If one doesn't want to stick around and/or pay the cost for the hope Windows will get to be where they need it to be, it makes sense why they avoid it.

You yourself admit as much, as Windows has gotten to a place you really enjoy. You stuck with the products because of work reasons so you could see the development & improvements because you had to, and now finally Windows is enjoyable enough you want to make it your main. That's great for you, but it's also how many feel about Apple / IOS products if they've used Windows as well and it didn't work out for them.

You highlight the successes of the Surface Book & point out some lows, something you can see in abundance as well on this forum about Mac products as well.