Tried the new Surface Pro 7 today...

[YaBe]

I'm afraid I'd be one of those that missed your point as well.

I have a Surface Pro 3, at the time IOS apps were pretty limited and there was no Procreate. So the idea of being able to use a full drawing program like Clip Studio on a tablet form factor was very appealing. It was fun, but the pen wasn't up to snuff for me, and windows itself would drive me nuts at times with endless updates that bogged me down. I still have the Surface Pro, as I found I could play a few Steam games on it, but I went back to iPads because that was comfortable for me.

Since that time of course, Procreate now exists, there is a sub model of Clip Studio that is everything the desktop version is, and Adobe is trying ease their way onto IOS. If one's issue is Windows itself, it's not hard to understand why you wouldn't stay with Surface products. Telling someone that Windows has gotten so much better, is like asking them to keep getting Windows products because they promise it will be better than the last. If one doesn't want to stick around and/or pay the cost for the hope Windows will get to be where they need it to be, it makes sense why they avoid it.

You yourself admit as much, as Windows has gotten to a place you really enjoy. You stuck with the products because of work reasons so you could see the development & improvements because you had to, and now finally Windows is enjoyable enough you want to make it your main. That's great for you, but it's also how many feel about Apple / IOS products if they've used Windows as well and it didn't work out for them.

You highlight the successes of the Surface Book & point out some lows, something you can see in abundance as well on this forum about Mac products as well.

That's exactly the point, it is not Windows the reason not to pick a product, it is the lack of willingness to adapt.

When I switched from Windows to OS X at the beginning it wasn't an easy task, I did it because the HW was what I thought it was worth, was it hard? YES, was it worth it? YES.

People use Windows as an excuse, they lack the willingness to try, adapt their workflow (same reason why for many the iPad is ONLY a consumption device while the one that wanted to adapt are able to replace a computer with it).

iOS for iPads and Windows for Surfaces are the excuses.

Now if you try something and it simply is not up to the task is a thing, but to simply say Windows is the reason why I do not touch a computer, is plain silly.

ANY switch (Adobe / Affinity, PowerPC / Intel you name it...) takes time to adjust, some do it better than others, and some are not stuck in 1995 .

I mean I agree to disagree if there is some substance to the argument.

As you suggested, apps are more important, you can run Adobe, Affinity or similar prodiuct the same exact way on Win / Mac.

Now if you tell me your job depends on Final Cut, I can definitely agree, but even then, there might be room for debate, unless it is a client requisite.

 

[JayMysterio]

That's exactly the point, it is not Windows the reason not to pick a product, it is the lack of willingness to adapt.

When I switched from Windows to OS X at the beginning it wasn't an easy task, I did it because the HW was what I thought it was worth, was it hard? YES, was it worth it? YES.

People use Windows as an excuse, they lack the willingness to try, adapt their workflow (same reason why for many the iPad is ONLY a consumption device while the one that wanted to adapt are able to replace a computer with it).

iOS for iPads and Windows for Surfaces are the excuses.

Now if you try something and it simply is not up to the task is a thing, but to simply say Windows is the reason why I do not touch a computer, is plain silly.

ANY switch (Adobe / Affinity, PowerPC / Intel you name it...) takes time to adjust, some do it better than others, and some are not stuck in 1995 .

I mean I agree to disagree if there is some substance to the argument.

As you suggested, apps are more important, you can run Adobe, Affinity or similar prodiuct the same exact way on Win / Mac.

Now if you tell me your job depends on Final Cut, I can definitely agree, but even then, there might be room for debate, unless it is a client requisite.

By your logic then, anyone NOT willing to use a specific platform is making excuses for NOT wanting to use it. That make no sense, as YOU choose to pick a product, and pay for a product. Which means platforms/products are a choice. There is no obligation to use one platform over another. There is an obligation to one's self to use the best platform/product for themselves.

Unless it's demanded or required from your work, there isn't a need to use any particular platform you don't care to. No one's impressed if you muscle your way to making a platform/product work for you the best you can, despite not wanting to use it. That's silly.

While you consider an unwillingness as some kind of failure or shortcoming, it comes down to choice. Choices we now have. That's not an excuse, that's just making a choice to not use something you don't want to. That's making a choice to NOT use a product you don't care for. Calling it an excuse because someone doesn't want to use a product or go thru the growing pains of learning something they do NOT want to, is a bit misplaced.

I for myself specifically outlined my issues with Windows, which led to me abandoning it, and not having an issue looking back. I can't speak for others, but if I don't want what I consider to be hassles using Windows, it makes sense to go with Mac OS, iOS, or Chrome. That's just logic, not a failing on anyone's part. It isn't making excuses, it's doing what's right for you personally.

You may take it as some kind of badge of honor that you've stuck with Windows and the Surface Book makes you a proud owner. The same can be said of those of us who've tried the iPad only challenge and made it work. If one of us said the reason you can't use the iPad only is because of an excuse, I think you would have issue with that as well.

 

[TopherMan12]

That's exactly the point, it is not Windows the reason not to pick a product, it is the lack of willingness to adapt.

When I switched from Windows to OS X at the beginning it wasn't an easy task, I did it because the HW was what I thought it was worth, was it hard? YES, was it worth it? YES.

People use Windows as an excuse, they lack the willingness to try, adapt their workflow (same reason why for many the iPad is ONLY a consumption device while the one that wanted to adapt are able to replace a computer with it).

iOS for iPads and Windows for Surfaces are the excuses.

Now if you try something and it simply is not up to the task is a thing, but to simply say Windows is the reason why I do not touch a computer, is plain silly.

ANY switch (Adobe / Affinity, PowerPC / Intel you name it...) takes time to adjust, some do it better than others, and some are not stuck in 1995 .

I mean I agree to disagree if there is some substance to the argument.

As you suggested, apps are more important, you can run Adobe, Affinity or similar prodiuct the same exact way on Win / Mac.

Now if you tell me your job depends on Final Cut, I can definitely agree, but even then, there might be room for debate, unless it is a client requisite.

It is fine to debate such things if you are appointed to make standardized computer decisions for a group of people like in a business. But for an individual who has a personal preference for themselves of one operating system over another and they make a decision based on that preference......what is there to debate? If certain apps run the exact same way on Win or Mac then why not pick the OS you are most comfortable with? If someone simply wants to try something new then fine. But a preference of one OS over another is just as legitimate a reason for choosing a computer, tablet, phone, etc. as anything else. No one is going to force themselves to "adapt" to another OS just because someone else says they should.

 

[YaBe]

By your logic then, anyone NOT willing to use a specific platform is making excuses for NOT wanting to use it. That make no sense, as YOU choose to pick a product, and pay for a product. Which means platforms/products are a choice. There is no obligation to use one platform over another. There is an obligation to one's self to use the best platform/product for themselves.

Unless it's demanded or required from your work, there isn't a need to use any particular platform you don't care to. No one's impressed if you muscle your way to making a platform/product work for you the best you can, despite not wanting to use it. That's silly.

While you consider an unwillingness as some kind of failure or shortcoming, it comes down to choice. Choices we now have. That's not an excuse, that's just making a choice to not use something you don't want to. That's making a choice to NOT use a product you don't care for. Calling it an excuse because someone doesn't want to use a product or go thru the growing pains of learning something they do NOT want to, is a bit misplaced.

I for myself specifically outlined my issues with Windows, which led to me abandoning it, and not having an issue looking back. I can't speak for others, but if I don't want what I consider to be hassles using Windows, it makes sense to go with Mac OS, iOS, or Chrome. That's just logic, not a failing on anyone's part. It isn't making excuses, it's doing what's right for you personally.

You may take it as some kind of badge of honor that you've stuck with Windows and the Surface Book makes you a proud owner. The same can be said of those of us who've tried the iPad only challenge and made it work. If one of us said the reason you can't use the iPad only is because of an excuse, I think you would have issue with that as well.

We can agree to disagree, but no I have no pride in picking one manufacturer or the other, it's just a machine.

I try different things with an open mind and pick the one that fits the job/bill, no matter who makes it.

 

[LeeW]

I don't get the discussion, there is no perfect, single device or platform for all, for some maybe. But in any event, whether a Surface Pro, for example, is a laptop first or tablet first it makes no difference, does it do what you want it to do?

I had a surface pro 4 back when I had a windows related project, for what I needed it for it was great. I could dock it and use it with 2 screens, a laptop with a decent keyboard, trackpad and it was backlit ( although the stand wasnt as good unless you had a flat surface) and when I just needed something to do a few emails or browse the web it worked great as a tablet. And it was all effortless to do.

At least I didn't need to buy the exact same software twice, once for laptop and once for iPad, cause no compatibility, hi Apple! People will be along to defend you, don't worry.

 

[TopherMan12]

At least I didn't need to buy the exact same software twice, once for laptop and once for iPad, cause no compatibility, hi Apple! People will be along to defend you, don't worry.

Hi Microsoft too! Don't forget Surface Pro X is going to be ARM based. Goodbye x64 programs. Remember Windows RT? This isn't new.

 

[LeeW]

Hi Microsoft too! Don't forget Surface Pro X is going to be ARM based. Goodbye x64 programs. Remember Windows RT? This isn't new.

surface pro x is new, a separate and distinct product from the surface pro, so no, not the same thing as they not changing the existing lines. You have choices here with the windows devices, you don’t with Apple.

 

[TopherMan12]

surface pro x is new, a separate and distinct product from the surface pro, so no, not the same thing as they not changing the existing lines. You have choices here with the windows devices, you don’t with Apple.

iPad is a separate distinct product from Mac. No difference.

 

[LeeW]

You are good at twisting. The point remains, I don’t need to buy the same software twice on Microsoft devices, on apple I do.

 

[TopherMan12]

You are good at twisting. The point remains, I don’t need to buy the same software twice on Microsoft devices, on apple I do.

I'm not twisting anything. It is just not as black and white as you want to believe when you have multiple architectures. And whether you need to buy twice on Surface Pro X depends on the software. Microsoft and Adobe made a big deal about Fresco coming to Surface Pro X like it is on iPad. You are certainly not running Adobe Illustrator on Surface Pro X so here is your separate purchase while iPad can still run Adobe Illustrator Draw for free. If Surface Pro X becomes popular then you will see more versions of x64 applications needing to be purchased. But that is better than not having the choice at all, right?

 

[LeeW]

It is black and white, the pro x does not have to be a choice, if I do not choose it then there are no multiple architectures. Apple gives no choices.

 

[TopherMan12]

It is black and white, the pro x does not have to be a choice, if I do not choose it then there are no multiple architectures. Apple gives no choices.

iPad does not have to be a choice. You can buy a MacBook. How is this not a choice?

 

[LeeW]

iPad does not have to be a choice. You can buy a MacBook. How is this not a choice?

So my point is that a Surface Pro can be a desktop, tablet and laptop, only purchase software once. Now you are saying if I buy a MB then an Ipad does not have to be a choice? True, it is not a choice, I have to buy it, the MB cannot be used as a tablet and we come full circle, by having a MB and an iPad, I need to buy the software twice.

Putting you down as a troll now, not going to waste time responding to your comments.

 

[TopherMan12]

So my point is that a Surface Pro can be a desktop, tablet and laptop, only purchase software once. Now you are saying if I buy a MB then an Ipad does not have to be a choice? True, it is not a choice, I have to buy it, the MB cannot be used as a tablet and we come full circle, by having a MB and an iPad, I need to buy the software twice.

So instead of complaining about incompatibilities why didn't you just say you wished Apple would make a Macbook 2-in-1? I could at least see that argument as valid, if not predictable, coming from a Microsoft-centric viewpoint such as yours. I doubt there is demand for such a device as Macbook is not nearly as popular as iPad. So Apple is giving folks what they want and it certainly isn't a Surface Pro wannabe.

Putting you down as a troll now, not going to waste time responding to your comments.

Uh...trolling? Seriously?

At least I didn't need to buy the exact same software twice, once for laptop and once for iPad, cause no compatibility, hi Apple! People will be along to defend you, don't worry.

 

[bluecoast]

I'm really interested in Surface - especially Surface X - but like a few others, I just can't buy one with my own money - Windows 10 is a mess.

We moan about MacOS having rough edges (and it does - seemingly after years of neglect, Apple are now meaningfully developing it) but wow, have a go on Windows 10.

The case for the prosecution:

It launched 4 years ago and yet still:

• The old Win 7 control panel still co-exists with the new settings with many settings still not migrated over. These settings still use the Win7/XP layout.
• Many of the smaller pre-bundled apps are still Win 7 era apps and have not been updated to make them look like they belong in Win10.
• Office 365 still feels like its own world with it's own UI (stuck somewhere in the mid life cycle of Win 7) and doesn't respect the OS dark mode etc.

It surely is not beyond MS to resin the Win32 era bundled apps into the new Material approach. The fact that they have not done so, shows an uncaring sloppiness.

It's a great shame as there's a lot to like about Win 10 - however the people responsible for its user experience (depending on how MS is structured, that is) should be moved onto pastures anew and replaced with people who actually have pride in their work.

 

[YaBe]

Well time for an update, after almost a week with this Surface Laptop 3, I can confirm I am in love with this machine.

Typing on it is simply stunning, Apple should definitely copy this keyboard!
So far 0 issues with Windows 10, but that was to be expected, I already work every day with it at work, so nothing new on this side.

Really dig the usb on the powerbrick but not liking the fact that while I can charge with USB c, I have been unable to charge with a powerbank (it's a 30.000 MHA).

The 3:2 ratio screen is nice and a great change from 16:9 as you really get more height the res is great and the color calibration is excellent for my usage (also using the touch much more than expected).

The trackpad is Apple-like and it is the first time I can comfortably say that os a Windows laptop palm rejection in some situations could be a little better (as in sometimes it reject when you do not want to).

It's thin, it's lite but it has all you need (they have been nice enough to put a USB A too), and while it could offer more ports, especially on the 15 one (using the 13 black here), it is all you really need especially if you use a usbc hub.

If you are willing to cope with the normal issue of switching OS I cannot recommend this laptop enough!

Any questions, fire them up!

EDIT:
Forgot, as I am a sucker for old games, running old emulator fullscreen is a blast, as no black bars Sonic CD is brilliant.

NOT a gaming laptop, but some oldies and redream work very well.

 

[kazmac]

I nearly loved the SL2 13". SL3 not so much (yes, the keyboard and screen are excellent, but the build quality I saw was super disappointing, especially at these price points.)

Still on the fence about moving over to a desktop replacement laptop, but home circumstances are currently dictating that. I'll wait and see what Acer does with the Concept D Pros. I hope they release those on time (Nov & Dec).

I hope the SL3 and the Surface Pros work well for everyone. Enjoy them.

 

[YaBe]

I nearly loved the SL2 13". SL3 not so much (yes, the keyboard and screen are excellent, but the build quality I saw was super disappointing, especially at these price points.)

Still on the fence about moving over to a desktop replacement laptop, but home circumstances are currently dictating that. I'll wait and see what Acer does with the Concept D Pros. I hope they release those on time (Nov & Dec).

I hope the SL3 and the Surface Pros work well for everyone. Enjoy them.

Legit question, what build issue did you find?

 

[kazmac]

Legit question, what build issue did you find?

Saw underneath the keyboard on one of the display models. And they felt less sturdy than the SL2.

 

[YaBe]

Saw underneath the keyboard on one of the display models. And they felt less sturdy than the SL2.

Oh, I never had or used a version 2, and did not see underneath this one, but I have no sturdiness worries, maybe it's a good thing I did not see underneath

 

[Queen6]

Exactly it's more the unwillingness to adapt. I too was once reticent to switch to Windows, however Apple's poor hardware left no other option. 3 years on reverting to macOS for my professional needs would be a clear downgrade, and not a remote consideration at this point in time .

Microsoft is pushing boundaries and will in time deliver competent ARM based systems, while Apple is too scared to change the mix or incapable of coming up with an original fresh idea. Never been a better time to look for a PC, and never a worse time to be stuck with Apple's concept of the desktop environment, compromised by it's own greed for IOS device sales and lack of investment...

Q-6

 

[TopherMan12]

Exactly it's more the unwillingness to adapt. I too was once reticent to switch to Windows, however Apple's poor hardware left no other option. 3 years on reverting to macOS for my professional needs would be a clear downgrade, and not a remote consideration at this point in time .

Your professional needs are anecdotal, you know that, right? Seems everyone who makes these statements about "unwillingness to adapt" are trying extremely hard to believe this notion that everyone else should make the same decisions they made. You are better off having moved to Windows? Fantastic. Different people have different wants/needs. Why is this hard?

Microsoft is pushing boundaries and will in time deliver competent ARM based systems, while Apple is too scared to change the mix or incapable of coming up with an original fresh idea. Never been a better time to look for a PC, and never a worse time to be stuck with Apple's concept of the desktop environment, compromised by it's own greed for IOS device sales and lack of investment...

Q-6

How is Microsoft "pushing boundaries" on the hardware front again?

 

[LeeW]

Never been a better time to look for a PC, and never a worse time to be stuck with Apple's concept of the desktop environment, compromised by it's own greed for IOS device sales and lack of investment...

Sadly I agree, happy enough with iPhone, iPad and Watch, actually happy enough with my Mac Mini until I upgraded to Catalina, so many issues. Yeah, I know, it's new, downgrade to Mojave but if you are going to release it as fit for release then make sure it works properly.

HDMI issues on Mac
Family Sharing not working correctly on News+
Purchased apps show up one day, not the next, oh back again
the list goes on, I won't bore you with it

Yeah, I am a sucker for some elements of macOS, I will probably wait and try when Catalina V2 is out. But in the meantime, enjoying Windows, getting to know and like more things, some others not so much but ultimately learning to have them both working for me than against.

But, I am more excited about what Microsoft is doing than Apple right now.

Even my wife said the other night "Can I just use that onedrive thing, works better than icloud".

 

[TopherMan12]

Even my wife said the other night "Can I just use that onedrive thing, works better than icloud".

Your wife is absolutely correct. The "onedrive thing, works better than iCloud".

 

[YaBe]

But, I am more excited about what Microsoft is doing than Apple right now.

Nadella is a smart guy, and while it might not be Jobs like , especially in public appearance, the guy had a vision, and when everyone thought he could not turn around the company he did just that.

He chopped parts that were not performing (windows phone) and focused on the "future vision" the Surface.

He was smart enough to understand it was a long road, but it is starting to pay off, I really admire the guy.

The road ahead is still long, but it's in the right direction.