Vaporizer Manufacturer PAX Calls on Apple to Rethink Vaping-Related App Ban

[Khedron]

Apple:

We take great care to curate the App Store as a trusted place for customers, particularly youth, to download apps. We're constantly evaluating apps, and consulting the latest evidence, to determine risks to users' health and well-being.

Also Apple:

 

[swamprock]

I am with Apple. For all of you saying you're adults, and can do whatever you want, well, you're right. But Apple is relying on public health concerns, not just about the particular horrors of multiple deaths and thousands of young people with severe damage to their lungs. This is not something, to my mind, that can be minimized. The illusion is that, if you don't inhale the tobacco products, just the nicotine, then it is not harmful. The problem is much worse than that. The fact is, after the tobacco lawsuit made cigarettes very expensive, and made the harm done by tobacco unquestionable, people looking for an oral fix decided to try vaping. How much of the problem was due just to some unsavory types putting bizarre chemicals in their mixtures without studying the possible effects? Some, but not all. In fact, vaping just took off, with little to no research about what was safe and what wasn't. What additives can be allowed, and which can't. How hot can this delivery system be? What fluids and oils are safe, when transported into the lungs.

In the old days, smoking for 20-30 years was common, and the deaths from lung cancer were predictable and grew every year. Maybe the CDC and the FDA should do some thorough research, so "adults" will have the information they need for a more informed choice. There's a lot of thinking being driven by addiction among vapers, it seems to me. As it happens, the first we found out about it was a number of sudden deaths among perfectly healthy young people. So now, the FDA will have to do research, and come out with regulations. This additive is safe, this is not. And I know that the culprit that you all mention is responsible for the most grisly of those deaths. In all of them?

I smoked for 25 years. I gave up almost 20 years ago, after a heart attack of which the doctors all said, "Your only risk factor is smoking."

I have a friend who stopped vaping as soon as the news spread. I'd call that a wise precaution, if you can do it. You're not likely to get cancer, true. But we need a lot more research to discover everything we need to know. I think Apple is, in part, a health company. I think it has decided it doesn't want to make it easier to vape until they're sure of the realities here, which aren't known yet.

Good points made here. I agree that there should be some research done on the effects of vaping; nicotine and otherwise; and regulations put in place where needed. Hell, the legitimate vape shops agree as well. The FDA has already done so, having come up with guidelines that vape shops must follow when mixing their blends, and issuing approvals of each blend. The problem here is two-fold- the knee-jerk way in which the current states' governments are handling the black market problem, and the disingenuous way that the media, the CDC, the anti-smoking groups, and the states' governments are blanketing the entire vaping market as bad, bad, bad because of the loss of the various tobacco tax revenues and funding. They're clouding the issue with the public, as they usually do when it comes to money, to achieve their goal of eradicating this "scourge" that has seen their cash cow disappear. Meanwhile, the few studies that have been done are conveniently ignored, and the states will not comment on the CDC's findings of vitamin E acetate being the culprit in these deaths and illnesses.

There's an old saying- "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS". That's what's in play here.

Vaping has been around for many years now; over a decade; and is only suddenly getting widespread attention due to the black market problem and these illnesses and deaths due to it. Even Big Tobacco's entry into the market with the Juul, Smok, and other brands (and their huge marketing budget) hadn't had the same effect of drawing attention to vaping as this issue has. The fight to kill vaping has actually been going on in the states for many years, with attempts to tax it as tobacco (which failed) and various other FUD that no one paid much attention to, until the illicit THC carts gave them the ammunition needed to bring their fight into the mainstream.

 

[burgman]

It's not setting a precedent, it's following an earlier precedent. We've already seen them ban Civil War games for featuring the Confederate flag in a purely historical context. The banishment of vape apps is equally wrong. But I've already accepted that Apple is censoring these things, and I care about vaping the least. Actually I actively want it to die, so it's hard to care about the principle here.

I admire companies for trying to maintain the level of free speech the US Constitution grants to the public, but it's really hard. If a large company takes that position, the US government will probably penalize them for it ironically, foreign ones will do so even more, all the people banned from every other platform will go there, and even Americans will prioritize what they believe in over the principle of free speech. IMO, it's a surely losing battle without a law in place. Steam's attempt was the best example.

I see, you dislike a private company exercising their free speech yet love using government power to restrict it By passing a law. By the way the Constitution‘s 1st amendment prohibits exactly what you want. If a baker can refuse to bake a cake, a company can refuse to host an app. Can’t have it both ways.
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Good points made here. I agree that there should be some research done on the effects of vaping; nicotine and otherwise; and regulations put in place where needed. Hell, the legitimate vape shops agree as well. The FDA has already done so, having come up with guidelines that vape shops must follow when mixing their blends, and issuing approvals of each blend. The problem here is two-fold- the knee-jerk way in which the current states' governments are handling the black market problem, and the disingenuous way that the media, the CDC, the anti-smoking groups, and the states' governments are blanketing the entire vaping market as bad, bad, bad because of the loss of the various tobacco tax revenues and funding. They're clouding the issue with the public, as they usually do when it comes to money, to achieve their goal of eradicating this "scourge" that has seen their cash cow disappear. Meanwhile, the few studies that have been done are conveniently ignored, and the states will not comment on the CDC's findings of vitamin E acetate being the culprit in these deaths and illnesses.

There's an old saying- "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS". That's what's in play here.

After Trump’s bluster about banning Vaping, total silence and several ex administration employees now work in the vaping industry. Must be a coincidence
Trusting companies and individuals to deliver a safe product inhaled into our lungs for profit, in a Wild West unregulated market is Forest Gump level of trust.

 

[R3k]

Guess someone would need to release an open source non vape specific control app that just happens to able to control one amongst other things. As a work around.

 

[travelsheep]

Is this a marketing gag? 50 % of people die due to food related diseases, such as cardiovascular disease. Does Apple ban all recipe apps? Come on Apple, this is ridiculous...

 

[swamprock]

I see, you dislike a private company exercising their free speech yet love using government power to restrict it By passing a law. By the way the Constitution‘s 1st amendment prohibits exactly what you want. If a baker can refuse to bake a cake, a company can refuse to host an app. Can’t have it both ways.
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After Trump’s bluster about banning Vaping, total silence and several ex administration employees now work in the vaping industry. Must be a coincidence
Trusting companies and individuals to deliver a safe product inhaled into our lungs for profit, in a Wild West unregulated market is Forest Gump level of trust.

There is transparency with legitimate vape shops; a list of ingredients and FDA approval of their blends, which is required by law as of last year. Gas station blends... probably not so much, but I wouldn't trust the speed pills that they sell there either.

That's the other side of this battle. With all of the publicity that this industry is now getting, Big Tobacco would be dumb not to attempt to take it over, once this all plays out. I know that they'd definitely like to squeeze out the many small players in the business so that they can have it all to themselves to profit from, or to kill it. The states will happily play along, taxing it as they would cigarettes.

 

[theluggage]

Apple is a private company and can do as they please.

Not necessarily. Apple and Google, between them, control the vast majority of the smartphone industry. Pretty much every major economy has anti-trust/competition laws and both are already under scrutiny for allegedly anticompetitive behaviour.

On the Mac, Apple can decide that they don't want to "endorse" your business by carrying your app on the Mac app store - but users are still free to buy/download that app from anywhere else and install it. Even 'unsigned' Apps can be run by jumping through a couple of minor, well documented and officially supported hoops. On an iDevice - if it ain't in the App Store it ain't running (without major obstacles such as registering as a developer or exploiting some undocumented and ephemeral bug to 'root' your device). OK, you can visit any website but there's a limit to what web apps can do (aside from their reliance on internet access and the original server still being available..)

So, yes, it is of public concern when Apple arbitrarily and overnight block a particular type of App from their store for what are purely PR reasons. This action could effectively kill the idea of App-controlled vapers (...and, yes, using a phone to control and monitor a small device that doesn't have physical space for a user interface is a perfectly good idea).

Now, in the particular case of "vaping apps" I'm not going to cry into my beer (...you don't need an app for that yet) but, as they say, "First they came for the hipsters, and I did nothing...".

As for vaping... the problem here is the "bait and switch" of "vastly safer than smoking and helps addicts to quit" => "let's get a generation of young people and already-quit smokers hooked on bubblegum-flavoured nicotine and hope that. when it comes to the safety of breathing glycol and artificial flavourings for hours at a time, absence of evidence really is evidence of absence". Personally, I'd just got to like visiting a bar* or restaurant without having my coat stink of other people's smoke for a week, and don't really want a hideous miasma of tobacco-flavour, strawberry, pot, sandalwood and menthol (with a dash of burning lithium) instead.

However, I agree that we've probably got past the point where vaping could have been banned without driving a large wedge of the population into the arms of criminals (...which, frankly, is why beer and tobacco are still legal, and the war on drugs a disaster... although unlike smoke/vape most of the ways that my beer could end up in someone else's liver are pretty illegal). So its really down to stopping vape companies sponsoring school football teams and installing vending machines in hospitals...

I can see where Apple are coming from, but they're really hoist by their own petard: if you build a walled garden and boast about its safety, you're going to get blamed when people eat the lilly-of-the-valley.

 

[Khedron]

I am with Apple. For all of you saying you're adults, and can do whatever you want, well, you're right. But Apple is relying on public health concerns, not just about the particular horrors of multiple deaths and thousands of young people with severe damage to their lungs. This is not something, to my mind, that can be minimized. The illusion is that, if you don't inhale the tobacco products, just the nicotine, then it is not harmful. The problem is much worse than that. The fact is, after the tobacco lawsuit made cigarettes very expensive, and made the harm done by tobacco unquestionable, people looking for an oral fix decided to try vaping. How much of the problem was due just to some unsavory types putting bizarre chemicals in their mixtures without studying the possible effects? Some, but not all. In fact, vaping just took off, with little to no research about what was safe and what wasn't. What additives can be allowed, and which can't. How hot can this delivery system be? What fluids and oils are safe, when transported into the lungs.

In the old days, smoking for 20-30 years was common, and the deaths from lung cancer were predictable and grew every year. Maybe the CDC and the FDA should do some thorough research, so "adults" will have the information they need for a more informed choice. There's a lot of thinking being driven by addiction among vapers, it seems to me. As it happens, the first we found out about it was a number of sudden deaths among perfectly healthy young people. So now, the FDA will have to do research, and come out with regulations. This additive is safe, this is not. And I know that the culprit that you all mention is responsible for the most grisly of those deaths. In all of them?

I smoked for 25 years. I gave up almost 20 years ago, after a heart attack of which the doctors all said, "Your only risk factor is smoking."

I have a friend who stopped vaping as soon as the news spread. I'd call that a wise precaution, if you can do it. You're not likely to get cancer, true. But we need a lot more research to discover everything we need to know. I think Apple is, in part, a health company. I think it has decided it doesn't want to make it easier to vape until they're sure of the realities here, which aren't known yet.

What about the millions having diseases and death from obesity yet Apple still supports fast food?

That's an acceptable health crisis for some reason?

 

[babaroga73]

Here is the list of 288 alcohol related apps:

Apps related to "Alcohol" (page 2) | 148Apps

App results for 'Alcohol' Page 2. Showing results 16 - 30 of 340.

www.148apps.com

here is the list of 552 drinking related apps

Apps and articles related to "Drinking" | 148Apps

Click through for 595 apps and 62 articles related to 'Drinking'.

www.148apps.com

here is the list of 413 drug related apps

Apps related to "Drugs" | 148Apps

App results for 'Drugs' Page 1. Showing results 1 - 15 of 460.

www.148apps.com

here is the list of 167 cigar related apps

Apps related to "Cigar" | 148Apps

App results for 'Cigar' Page 1. Showing results 1 - 15 of 174.

www.148apps.com

here is the list of 215 weed related apps

Apps related to "Weed" | 148Apps

App results for 'Weed' Page 1. Showing results 1 - 15 of 267.

www.148apps.com

here is the list of 9544 food related apps

Apps related to "Food" | 148Apps

App results for 'Food' Page 1. Showing results 1 - 15 of 10,720.

www.148apps.com

Here is the list of leading causes of death in US in 2018

Leading Causes of Death in the US | [Top 10 for 2018]

There may be 1,000 ways to die, but these are the most common forms of death in the United States this year.

www.consumersadvocate.org

Here is the Great Britain stat for smoking/former smoking / vaping

https://vaping360.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/proportion-of-currents-smokers-vs-smokers-who-have-quit-1024x719.png

Here is the stat on how vaping stimulated the "quit smoking" thing.

https://zniup3zx6m0ydqfpv9y6sgtf-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/E-cigs-smokers-vs-exsmokers.jpg

 

[Analog Kid]

The now-banned PAX Mobile app, for example, let PAX vaporizer users do things like adjust the vaporizer temperature, set parental controls, verify the authenticity of cartridges, and change the colors of the lights on the devices.

Am I the only one that finds this a strange product to implement parental controls?

 

[babaroga73]

**** smoking, **** vaping, and why on earth do you need an App for that ****?

Because vaping contraption sometimes has firmware in it so to regulate the power of smoke cloud, the temperature, and to count the times you've used it. It actually helps people see stats about their vaping habits, and regulate it so to use it less then they used it before, kicking the habit altogether , eventually.

Vaping is in some research (surely not the ones stimulated by tobacco companies, which are now slowly dying)
is recognized as a massive healthy alternative to vaping. There is an all-around vaping panic in the media, and surely you must think sometimes it's not just because the lack of knowledge or info about it, but something other, something sinister, too.

If you have a time and patience, watch this, it made me drop tobacco cigarettes , to do something weird (vape) and regain the power of breathing again. It is a serious lecture, made by serious people who measured health stats and presented it there.

Electronic cigarettes: What we know so far

But surely , don't forget that batteries for vaping products can burst!!!!! Who would've thought??? Cut the hand to heal a broken nail.

Here is an actual ad , and they sell this in pharmacies, as a health(ier) alternative ....

 

[1146331]

The problem is the immediacy of the vaping death crisis.

Versus alcohol related deaths.....

According to the United States Centers for Disease Control (CDC), more than 88,000 people die from alcohol-related deaths each year in the United States.1 And alcohol continues to be one of the nation’s most preventable causes of death, second only to tobacco and a poor diet/sedentary lifestyle.

Alcoholism Statistics You Need to Know | Talbott Recovery

Alcoholism affects people from all walks of life. According to the United States Centers for Disease Control (CDC), more than 88,000 people die from alcohol-related deaths each year in the United States.1 And alcohol continues to be one of the nation’s most preventable causes of death, second...

talbottcampus.com

Yep, vaping is definitely the worse (/S)

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has linked vaping to 1,479 cases of a mysterious lung disease over the last six months. At least 33 people have died since the outbreak began.

The recent vaping deaths are bad. The long term toll will be even worse

As many as 1,479 people have been sickened by e-cigarettes, and 33 have died. But that's not the only way vaping is hazardous to your health.

www.latimes.com

 

[AustinIllini]

Versus alcohol related deaths.....

Alcoholism Statistics You Need to Know | Talbott Recovery

Alcoholism affects people from all walks of life. According to the United States Centers for Disease Control (CDC), more than 88,000 people die from alcohol-related deaths each year in the United States.1 And alcohol continues to be one of the nation’s most preventable causes of death, second...

talbottcampus.com

This is an argument to make alcohol illegal and take down alcohol related apps, not an argument to put vaping apps back up.

 

[LordVic]

the amusing thing about banning PAX is that PAX makes dry herb vapourizers. NOT chemical based nicotine vapourizers.

PAX vapes are meant for wax, shatter and dry erb. You can't use them with nicotine based vape juice

just shows that Apple is so bloody out of touch with reality and what is actually happening that they're quick to jump on a "social" bandwagon if it means they can pretend to have a moral high ground on the issue.

the fact that they so completely missed the mark on this should be telling that they don't actually have a clue whats going on outside of their corporate bubble.
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The problem is that across America and in the UK, there are people dying and needing double lung transplants because of an unregulated market. Can you imagine if smoking tobacco was being introduced these days?! No way would it be allowed.

Until there is proper regulation and known health problems found, Apple should not facilitate anything to do with this.

A regulated market is one thing

A complete outright ban of all things vape is stupidity, especially considering the facts that are emergign is that the sudden lung issues that arose were NOT normal vape products, but illegal carts using a stubstance that is not safe for vaping.

This is why regulation is important. but blanket bans are outright stupid and they do the exact opposite. They force people who want to participate to seek the black market. That's where the dangerous stuff happens. That's where the pills are mixed with fentanyl. That's where Vape juice gets mixed with bad oils. That's where Alcohol gets to poisonous levels.

When you legalize, and regulate, you can ensure that the products are available for those who want it, but they are safely monitored to reduce harm.

Anyone who is supporting a blanket ban on Vapes, and vaping products, is simply put. Wrong, and reacting purely emotional without knowing the facts. And honestly, have no business chiming in until they educate themselves.
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**** smoking, **** vaping, and why on earth do you need an App for that ****?

As i've mentioned above. Pax provides dry herb and cannabis shatter vapourizers. (Not nicotine juice pods).

Having temperature adjustments allows for fine tuning things like draw speed, or even which exact chemicals in the cannabis one wishes to vape. For example, if you turn the temp to lower, you'll get more of the CBD and less of the TCH which has a higher boiling point.

you can also adjust for flavour, and a lot of these devices have modes that can be adjust to change different aspects of the draw from your fresh cannabis.

Vapourizing cannabis is far safer than burning it as you are not inhaling burning plant material. You are inhaling only the chemicals you want and leaving behind the non intoxicating plant matter.

you don't NEED an app overall, but for PAX, it was designed to be as simple of a device to use. on and off, that's it on the tiny physical device. There's little room for a screen or other buttons. So, they offloaded that functionality to a smartphone app, which is reasonable considering the popularity of smartphones.

 

[Zmmyt]

I said that in a different threat:

crappy fast food is bad for the youth too (obesity, diabetes), but I don’t see KFC and BK apps being removed.

The removal of vape apps is such nonsense. I sometimes wonder what goes through someone’s head when making those decisions.

Probably some elitist, who’s children are anyway privilege and don’t need to go to crappy KFC. But god forbid, the spoiled brat comes across a vape app...say no to drugs, kid!

end of rant.

 

[1146331]

This is an argument to make alcohol illegal and take down alcohol related apps, not an argument to put vaping apps back up.

Are you intellectually unable to pair the two arguments together?

The point is, Apple did not act upon the worse of two evils. They have a closed store that prevents people from publishing applications to their platform if they do not allow it.

Microsoft got a huge anti-trust lawsuit for including IE in Windows, I hope Apple gets their asses handed to them in court over not allowing alternate app stores.
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I said that in a different threat:

crappy fast food is bad for the youth too (obesity, diabetes), but I don’t see KFC and BK apps being removed.

The removal of vape apps is such nonsense. I sometimes wonder what goes through someone’s head when making those decisions.

Probably some elitist, who’s children are anyway privilege and don’t need to go to crappy KFC. But god forbid, the spoiled brat comes across a vape app...say no to drugs, kid!

end of rant.

It's just more virtue signalling from Apple, little Timmie is good at virtual signalling while kissing the ground China walks on.

 

[AustinIllini]

Are you intellectually unable to pair the two arguments together?

The point is, Apple did not act upon the worse of two evils. They have a closed store that prevents people from publishing applications to their platform if they do not allow it.

Microsoft got a huge anti-trust lawsuit for including IE in Windows, I hope Apple gets their asses handed to them in court over not allowing alternate app stores.

Simple logic. The legality of something dangerous does not justify the legality of something else dangerous.

When you resort to ad hominem, please make sure your argument isn't paper thin.

 

[tylersdad]

Not sure why the complaints. These things don’t need apps anyway.

The PAX doesn't technically require it, but if you want to change the temperature from one of the 3 presets, then you need the app. Three presets isn't nearly enough temperature flexibility.
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The problem is the immediacy of the vaping death crisis.

You're right, but there have been no vaping deaths from people vaping the dry herb. Only concentrates. So why did they ban the apps for the devices that only consume dry herb?

 

[Jozone]

Am I the only one that finds this a strange product to implement parental controls?

Not at all strange IMO, it's similar to a trigger lock on a gun. If the kid can't unlock without the parent's device, it becomes significantly less dangerous.

 

[burgman]

There is transparency with legitimate vape shops; a list of ingredients and FDA approval of their blends, which is required by law as of last year. Gas station blends... probably not so much, but I wouldn't trust the speed pills that they sell there either.

That's the other side of this battle. With all of the publicity that this industry is now getting, Big Tobacco would be dumb not to attempt to take it over, once this all plays out. I know that they'd definitely like to squeeze out the many small players in the business so that they can have it all to themselves to profit from, or to kill it. The states will happily play along, taxing it as they would cigarettes.

Along with gas station Sushi ?
This week A raid in Utah arrested several violent teen aged gang members who were running a multi-state THC vaping cartridge operation and guns, with a network of high school students. Driving, texting, and vaping THC, with unknown other ingredients what could go wrong?

 

[pweicks]

Parental controls for vaping?? Ya gotta be kidding me.

“I don’t care if my kid vapes but I want to lock it down so they can only vape as much as I allow them to.”

 

[1146331]

Simple logic. The legality of something dangerous does not justify the legality of something else dangerous.

When you resort to ad hominem, please make sure your argument isn't paper thin.

So you just proved you are intellectually incapable of understanding my argument.

People who resort to saying an argument is a fallacy have already lost the argument by using the fallacy argument. Every argument regardless of evidence can be considered a fallacy so nice try on trying to sound educated.

Apple has banned a vaping app for no good reason, using "deaths" and "health crisis" as an excuse. They have not banned apps that encourage WORSE and more dangerous behaviors, once again they are just virtue signalling.

 

[menace3]

Don't really need an app for that though - could do it on the web.

Actually it is a pain in the ass as there is not once source to do this. I check all he time and even Leafly fails to deliver on some
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Pax Era app shouldn't be banned as it doesn't do anything but control temperature. Not sure what the article is talking about "if you have the app you can use it FOR NOW", not going to disappear off my phone... Am curious how to change temps manually without app though. Have 4 of these and they are the FIRE!!!

You can by rolling it over. I checked and it's in the instructions. I'm more concerned about the app being deleted while I have the Era locked. There doesn't seem to be a way to unlock it without the app

 

[AustinIllini]

So you just proved you are intellectually incapable of understanding my argument.

People who resort to saying an argument is a fallacy have already lost the argument by using the fallacy argument. Every argument regardless of evidence can be considered a fallacy so nice try on trying to sound educated.

Apple has banned a vaping app for no good reason, using "deaths" and "health crisis" as an excuse. They have not banned apps that encourage WORSE and more dangerous behaviors, once again they are just virtue signalling.

I understand what you're trying to say, but you argument is a bad one. Come back with a better one and spare the personal attacks

 

[zorinlynx]

Not necessarily. Apple and Google, between them, control the vast majority of the smartphone industry. Pretty much every major economy has anti-trust/competition laws and both are already under scrutiny for allegedly anticompetitive behaviour.

On the Mac, Apple can decide that they don't want to "endorse" your business by carrying your app on the Mac app store - but users are still free to buy/download that app from anywhere else and install it. Even 'unsigned' Apps can be run by jumping through a couple of minor, well documented and officially supported hoops. On an iDevice - if it ain't in the App Store it ain't running (without major obstacles such as registering as a developer or exploiting some undocumented and ephemeral bug to 'root' your device). OK, you can visit any website but there's a limit to what web apps can do (aside from their reliance on internet access and the original server still being available..)

So, yes, it is of public concern when Apple arbitrarily and overnight block a particular type of App from their store for what are purely PR reasons. This action could effectively kill the idea of App-controlled vapers (...and, yes, using a phone to control and monitor a small device that doesn't have physical space for a user interface is a perfectly good idea).

Now, in the particular case of "vaping apps" I'm not going to cry into my beer (...you don't need an app for that yet) but, as they say, "First they came for the hipsters, and I did nothing...".

As for vaping... the problem here is the "bait and switch" of "vastly safer than smoking and helps addicts to quit" => "let's get a generation of young people and already-quit smokers hooked on bubblegum-flavoured nicotine and hope that. when it comes to the safety of breathing glycol and artificial flavourings for hours at a time, absence of evidence really is evidence of absence". Personally, I'd just got to like visiting a bar* or restaurant without having my coat stink of other people's smoke for a week, and don't really want a hideous miasma of tobacco-flavour, strawberry, pot, sandalwood and menthol (with a dash of burning lithium) instead.

However, I agree that we've probably got past the point where vaping could have been banned without driving a large wedge of the population into the arms of criminals (...which, frankly, is why beer and tobacco are still legal, and the war on drugs a disaster... although unlike smoke/vape most of the ways that my beer could end up in someone else's liver are pretty illegal). So its really down to stopping vape companies sponsoring school football teams and installing vending machines in hospitals...

I can see where Apple are coming from, but they're really hoist by their own petard: if you build a walled garden and boast about its safety, you're going to get blamed when people eat the lilly-of-the-valley.

Thanks, you explained this better than I could have; I also haven't had time to really respond to that post. The iPhone install base is large enough that Apple swinging their weight around removing apps from the store can cause real harm. They really should avoid making these arbitrary moral judgements and stick to what the law says.