When will the Air get a Magic Keyboard?

[motrek]

Also waiting for new air with new keyboard. Used the touchbar for a few months and hated it. My finger would always by mistake hit it. It is very sensitive and drove me insane. We need to make this thread a priority. Apple does listen....

That's one of the reasons why I chose to buy the Air. The Pro only costs $200 more, I can easily afford that, but the Air is lighter and it doesn't have a stupid touch bar.

The touch bar is an inherently flawed idea. When I'm using a computer, I shouldn't have to look anywhere other than the screen to access functionality.

 

[kdm0505]

same, i'm in the market to buy but can't until they refresh with the new keyboard.

 

[mr_jomo]

I have been debating transitioning to an iPad Pro for my main work device and pairing it with a bluetooth Magic Keyboard simply to avoid the butterfly keyboards. The MBA getting back a dependable keyboard would be a day one purchase for me as my 2015 MBA is getting long in the tooth.

That's how I do say 50% of my workload currently: iPad Pro 12.9 coupled with a magic keyboard and an external mouse. Now if only Microsoft had fully capable versions of Office on iPadOS, this thing could handle 90% of what my job requires. But that's never going to happen, as that would destroy Microsoft Surface business in an instant.

So, I'm on the hunt for a portable alternative. A MBA with updated keyboard would be an insta-buy!

 

[ZeuSGoKiL]

Why not?
[automerge]1574105251[/automerge]


For a laptop, footprint usually means length times width, nothing to do with the thickness of the laptop. I imagine they might have to make the MBA slightly thicker to accommodate the new keyboard but I can't imagine they'll have to change the footprint.

I wouldn't mind a slightly thicker laptop at all. The 2014 11" MacBook Air that I have now is only ~1.5 millimeters thicker than the current MacBook Air. The difference is basically not noticeable.

It makes a huge ..(try to make a tone like Mr Donald do it ) difference when you are travelling with it and your daily driver . Now I dont mean travelling to work with it I mean like really travelling around the globe with it. Long hours in airports , flight delays , and when travel the globe its all possibility cramp into one. Trust me that half and itch and more weigh will wear you down.

I have to even single out all those bulky thick laptop although they have more power under the hood .. like for example Alienware or ASUS ROG , Zephyrus the list goes on .

Macbook Air 2012 is the standards weight for me and its always were till this very day.

 

[motrek]

It makes a huge ..(try to make a tone like Mr Donald do it ) difference when you are travelling with it and your daily driver . Now I dont mean travelling to work with it I mean like really travelling around the globe with it. Long hours in airports , flight delays , and when travel the globe its all possibility cramp into one. Trust me that half and itch and more weigh will wear you down.

I have to even single out all those bulky thick laptop although they have more power under the hood .. like for example Alienware or ASUS ROG , Zephyrus the list goes on .

Macbook Air 2012 is the standards weight for me and its always were till this very day.

I don't understand what you're replying to or what you're saying.

You think that if they add a millimeter of thickness to the 2018 MacBook Air, that will make it go from being a great laptop for traveling to being a horrible laptop?

I would bet you $100 that you couldn't even notice.

 

[lambertjohn]

Q. When will the Air get a Magic Keyboard?
A. (my guess) Not before Apple has met their contractual obligation to purchase "x" million butterfly keyboards from their supplier/subcontractor.

Agree with this totally. Folks think Apple can just switch over to the new keyboard in a New York minute. Not happening. They've got contractual obligations that stretch for miles on end, so they have to fulfill those first. That's how a business works. Once they've satisfied all their contractual obligations with their keyboard manufacturers, they'll gradually make the switch over. Probably starting with the 13" Pro then migrating to the Air. I predict the middle of next year sometime.

 

[motrek]

Agree with this totally. Folks think Apple can just switch over to the new keyboard in a New York minute. Not happening. They've got contractual obligations that stretch for miles on end, so they have to fulfill those first. That's how a business works. Once they've satisfied all their contractual obligations with their keyboard manufacturers, they'll gradually make the switch over. Probably starting with the 13" Pro then migrating to the Air. I predict the middle of next year sometime.

Apple doesn't have to switch the models one-by-one. For all we know, they've been working on adding the new keyboard to the other models for years now and they're 99% done and they'll be released tomorrow.

Rumors from mid-2019 were that the 2019 MacBook Air refresh was supposed to get scissor switches. I see three possibilities:

- Maybe the person who heard/reported the rumor was confused and was referring to the latest revision of the butterfly keyboard, which the 2019 Air did get

- Maybe the rumor was confused, and Apple has been working on a scissor-switch Air for a while now, just not for the 2019 refresh

- Maybe the rumor was dead-on and Apple will release a second revision of the 2019 Air with the new keyboard before the end of the year. I see this as least likely, since it's almost December, but not impossible...

 

[Mainsail]

My suggestion: if you have an immediate need for a good everyday laptop that runs Mac OS and handles routine stuff (mail, web, MS Office/iWork, Photos, iMovie, etc.), then go for it. My 2019 MBA has been great. The 2019 keyboard seems to be more reliable than the processors, and you get a 4 year warranty. I like the feel of the keyboard, but some folks don't, so check it out.

On the other hand, if you have an older model MBA that is running just fine, then I would wait and see what Apple does with the next MBA update to both keyboard and internals (eg processor, storage, SSD, etc..). No rush to buy, so why do it? I had a 2014 MBA that was a wonderful machine. My only issue was that it was a little skimpy on RAM. Also, I got a good deal on the new MBA and got a nice credit for my old machine. Nevertheless, it was not an essential purchase or upgrade.....just something I wanted to do.

I tend to replace my laptops every 5-6 years. So, $900 MBA purchase - $200 credit old MBA = $700/5yrs = $140/yr, less than $12 per month. Or, less than 40 cents per day for something I use a couple of hours per day. Not bad. I'll just absorb the risk that the keyboard could crap out in the last year of use without warranty coverage, which I think is unlikely. Really, not that big of a deal.

 

[motrek]

My suggestion: if you have an immediate need for a good everyday laptop that runs Mac OS and handles routine stuff (mail, web, MS Office/iWork, Photos, iMovie, etc.), then go for it. My 2019 MBA has been great. The 2019 keyboard seems to be more reliable than the processors, and you get a 4 year warranty. I like the feel of the keyboard, but some folks don't, so check it out.

Actually I did get a 2019 MacBook Air and used it for about a week. (See my original post.) I thought the keyboard was horrible but decided that I would just live with it and try to get used to it. But if Apple is going to change the keyboard in the next year or so to something that I prefer, and something that's presumably more reliable, then the decision to return the laptop to Apple was a no-brainer...

On the other hand, if you have an older model MBA that is running just fine, then I would wait and see what Apple does with the next MBA update to both keyboard and internals (eg processor, storage, SSD, etc..). No rush to buy, so why do it? I had a 2014 MBA that was a wonderful machine. My only issue was that it was a little skimpy on RAM. Also, I got a good deal on the new MBA and got a nice credit for my old machine. Nevertheless, it was not an essential purchase or upgrade.....just something I wanted to do.

That's actually what prompted me to buy the 2019 MacBook Air, I do have an older Air that runs out of RAM when I'm running XCode and Safari simultaneously. So I really need at least 8GB of RAM, and preferably 16GB if I really want to future-proof the laptop.

I only use my laptop when traveling. I have a big trip coming up next year so I need a new laptop before then. Hopefully Apple will have released new Airs with new keyboards by the time I leave. If not, there is an option that you haven't mentioned--buy a used ~2015 MacBook Pro. It will be a few percent bigger than a new Air in terms of footprint, and 30% heavier, which is a bummer, but on the other hand it will be super cheap and have a good keyboard.

I tend to replace my laptops every 5-6 years. So, $900 MBA purchase - $200 credit old MBA = $700/5yrs = $140/yr, less than $12 per month. Or, less than 40 cents per day for something I use a couple of hours per day. Not bad. I'll just absorb the risk that the keyboard could crap out in the last year of use without warranty coverage, which I think is unlikely. Really, not that big of a deal.

That's how I justified the relatively expensive purchase price of a new Air with 256GB SSD, since my last Air has lasted me 6+ years so far.

(BTW, the current base-model Air retail price is $1100, not $900.)

On the other hand, the keyboard warranty for the butterfly keyboards is 4 years. That's great until it runs out. For many people that might not be an issue, but for me, looking at my current laptop which is now 6 years old, that's a concern. I understand that Apple has supposedly addressed the reliability problems with the latest 2019 revision of the butterfly keyboards, but they also said that about the 2nd revision of the butterfly keyboards and look where that got them. So please excuse me if I don't have good confidence in the latest revision...

 

[Mainsail]

Actually I did get a 2019 MacBook Air and used it for about a week. (See my original post.) I thought the keyboard was horrible but decided that I would just live with it and try to get used to it. But if Apple is going to change the keyboard in the next year or so to something that I prefer, and something that's presumably more reliable, then the decision to return the laptop to Apple was a no-brainer...



That's actually what prompted me to buy the 2019 MacBook Air, I do have an older Air that runs out of RAM when I'm running XCode and Safari simultaneously. So I really need at least 8GB of RAM, and preferably 16GB if I really want to future-proof the laptop.

I only use my laptop when traveling. I have a big trip coming up next year so I need a new laptop before then. Hopefully Apple will have released new Airs with new keyboards by the time I leave. If not, there is an option that you haven't mentioned--buy a used ~2015 MacBook Pro. It will be a few percent bigger than a new Air in terms of footprint, and 30% heavier, which is a bummer, but on the other hand it will be super cheap and have a good keyboard.



That's how I justified the relatively expensive purchase price of a new Air with 256GB SSD, since my last Air has lasted me 6+ years so far.

(BTW, the current base-model Air retail price is $1100, not $900.)

On the other hand, the keyboard warranty for the butterfly keyboards is 4 years. That's great until it runs out. For many people that might not be an issue, but for me, looking at my current laptop which is now 6 years old, that's a concern. I understand that Apple has supposedly addressed the reliability problems with the latest 2019 revision of the butterfly keyboards, but they also said that about the 2nd revision of the butterfly keyboards and look where that got them. So please excuse me if I don't have good confidence in the latest revision...

Agree with much of your post. As clarification, for the last few months, BB and Amazon have had periodic sales on the base 2019 MBA for $900. If you are BB member, you can buy one right now for $900. You might have purchased a higher spec model, which is a couple of hundred buck more. I got the base model.

I agree that Apple has had a couple of false starts with this keyboard. But, the 2019 version has been out for 5-6 months now and it seems to be holding up much better than its predecessors. Nevertheless, there is some risk of problems down the road. So, the 4 year warranty provides peace of mind. After that, you are right. You are on your own. But, the truth is most laptops have some weakness that affects a small population after extended use. For the MBA, the keyboard is a risk you take during the last year or two of ownership, after the KB warranty expires. For another laptop, it will likely be something else.

The 16in MBP will probably turn out to be an outstanding laptop, and early reviews seem to be very positive. But, if you scan MR, you are already starting to see some complaints, issues and problems. I believe these are largely minor and will turn out to be no big deal. But, I would not be surprised if over time a weakness is uncovered that Apple needs to address in some fashion or another. Maybe it's a repair program. Maybe it's a redesign of a component. Who knows. But, no one makes a flawless laptop with zero failures over a large number of units. Just doesn't happen.

 

[motrek]

Agree with much of your post. As clarification, for the last few months, BB and Amazon have had periodic sales on the base 2019 MBA for $900. If you are BB member, you can buy one right now for $900. You might have purchased a higher spec model, which is a couple of hundred buck more. I got the base model.

Huh. Didn't know this was going on. I could probably make do with 128GB of storage if it would save me $400...

This discount might indicate that a new model is pretty close... maybe Apple is trying to get rid of stock? It's rare to see new Apple computers discounted by more than $50-$100...

I agree that Apple has had a couple of false starts with this keyboard. But, the 2019 version has been out for 5-6 months now and it seems to be holding up much better than its predecessors. Nevertheless, there is some risk of problems down the road. So, the 4 year warranty provides peace of mind. After that, you are right. You are on your own. But, the truth is most laptops have some weakness that affects a small population after extended use. For the MBA, the keyboard is a risk you take during the last year or two of ownership, after the KB warranty expires. For another laptop, it will likely be something else.

Sure, Apple laptops in the past have had problems with Nvidia GPUs coming unsoldered (huge class-action thing around that that lasted for years), various problems with batteries, SSDs, chipped top cases, etc.

But the keyboard is kinda one thing where, pre-2015, I don't think anybody would have thought that it might be a reliability pain point. But now we have to worry about keyboards breaking in addition to everything else because of this butterfly fiasco. I see you are taking the viewpoint of "something might always go wrong, might as well be the keyboard if it's not something else" but personally I favor the viewpoint of "let's not have to worry about the reliability of stuff that used to never really break."

 

[Mainsail]

Huh. Didn't know this was going on. I could probably make do with 128GB of storage if it would save me $400...

This discount might indicate that a new model is pretty close... maybe Apple is trying to get rid of stock? It's rare to see new Apple computers discounted by more than $50-$100...



Sure, Apple laptops in the past have had problems with Nvidia GPUs coming unsoldered (huge class-action thing around that that lasted for years), various problems with batteries, SSDs, chipped top cases, etc.

But the keyboard is kinda one thing where, pre-2015, I don't think anybody would have thought that it might be a reliability pain point. But now we have to worry about keyboards breaking in addition to everything else because of this butterfly fiasco. I see you are taking the viewpoint of "something might always go wrong, might as well be the keyboard if it's not something else" but personally I favor the viewpoint of "let's not have to worry about the reliability of stuff that used to never really break."

I see your point of view and don't really dispute it. For me, with the recent improvements to the 2019 KB plus the 4 yr warranty, I don't feel like I have that much exposure, so I will absorb the risk for the last year of ownership before trading it in per my usual 5 year cycle. It's just not a big deal to me. Nevertheless, I can see how others might feel differently.

As for MBA pricing, I wouldn't read too much into the BB discount. The 2019 model is really the 2018 with a better keyboard and True Tone display. It is not that uncommon to see deep discounts at the big box stores after a model has been on the market for this long. I paid $750 for my 2014 MBA at BB when Apple's retail price was $1,000. They stuck with the same design for another 4 years.

BTW - I would say my philosophy is more like: "I prefer that nothing go wrong, but if it does, I would prefer that it be to something that comes with an extended 4 year warranty."

 

[lambertjohn]

FYI: As of 11/30/19. Costco has the base 2019 Air for $799 and Micro Center has it for $779.

 

[The Game 161]

I'm sure they will next year when the next version is out...I like mine and does the Job for work and general web browsing when needed on the sofa. a better fit that of my iPad Pro 12.9i with keyboard...

the typing experience isn't terrible but an improved keyboard would be useful...that said I said to myself I would keep this MacBook Air 2019 for a good 5 years as I don't want to be spending over 1k on a laptop each year when I already do so with my iPhone and iPad pros when they are released.

 

[Mainsail]

I'm sure they will next year when the next version is out...I like mine and does the Job for work and general web browsing when needed on the sofa. a better fit that of my iPad Pro 12.9i with keyboard...

the typing experience isn't terrible but an improved keyboard would be useful...that said I said to myself I would keep this MacBook Air 2019 for a good 5 years as I don't want to be spending over 1k on a laptop each year when I already do so with my iPhone and iPad pros when they are released.

I wouldn't be so sure. Replacing the Butterfly keyboard with a completely new KB will require a significant redesign and production re-toolimg of the MBA. In a recent interview with CNET, Schiller basically said it is not a simple matter. It will most certainly make the MBA thicker, which is somewhat counter to the branding for the Air model. So, this change might involve compromises that Apple is less willing to make with this model compared to the Pro.

I think Apple is going to closely track sales of the MBA and the failure rate with the 2019 version of the butterfly KB. If they see that it is in fact more reliable than the predecessors and sales of the MBA remain strong, then there just might not be much motivation to change before the typical 5 year (or so) redesign cycle, which is still 4 years away. Also, in that time, Apple could be shifting to ARM processors in their consumer non-pro models, which will lead to yet another major design change. So, Apple might want to make a more comprehensive design change rather than doing something that is expedient just for the KB. Then, Apple could really explore KB options and other design changes that better fit the typical MBA user requirements.

 

[mick2]

I wouldn't be so sure. Replacing the Butterfly keyboard with a completely new KB will require a significant redesign and production re-toolimg of the MBA. In a recent interview with CNET, Schiller basically said it is not a simple matter.

You keep repeating this theory - that Apple will keep the butterfly kb going in parallel to the redesigned magic kb - and you cite a Phil Schiller statement as your evidence.

The truth is that there is absolutely no chance that Apple will continue to use the butterfly kb in any of its new laptops from this point forward. Quite apart from whether or not the latest iteration *is* fixed, it's a PR disaster that will be included alongside 2011 GPUs and iPhone 4 antennas in the list of well-known Apple hardware gaffs.

And having invested the effort to come up with a new kb design, why would Apple persist in keeping a flawed component in inventory that exposes them to both bads PR and continued repair liabilities when they have already solved the issue? They will find a way of putting the new kb in all their laptops and this will happen asap, as soon as new updated models are introduced in 2020. If I'm wrong you can return to this post and remind me

The Phil Schiller 'interview' was simply a PR puff piece featuriung Apple's head of marketing making PR-friendly statements about how they developed the new kb 'after listening to our Pro customers' / 'as teh result of lots of engineering effort' etc etc in order to not have to say outright that the butterfly kb was the failure that the press and the public all know it to be. It was an attempt to move on from the butterfly episode by the head of marketing without directly admitting it had been a failure, as is Marketing's way with these things. It was just a bit of PR. I feel you're simply flogging this line about Apple keeping the butterfly kb going in order to reassure yourself of your ownership of a 2019 butterfly kb. I understand this, but I think it's an emotional reaction that doesnt stand up to any kind of logical scrutiny.

 

[Mainsail]

You keep repeating this theory - that Apple will keep the butterfly kb going in parallel to the redesigned magic kb - and you cite a Phil Schiller statement as your evidence.

The truth is that there is absolutely no chance that Apple will continue to use the butterfly kb in any of its new laptops from this point forward. Quite apart from whether or not the latest iteration *is* fixed, it's a PR disaster that will be included alongside 2011 GPUs and iPhone 4 antennas in the list of well-known Apple hardware gaffs.

And having invested the effort to come up with a new kb design, why would Apple persist in keeping a flawed component in inventory that exposes them to both bads PR and continued repair liabilities when they have already solved the issue? They will find a way of putting the new kb in all their laptops and this will happen asap, as soon as new updated models are introduced in 2020. If I'm wrong you can return to this post and remind me

The Phil Schiller 'interview' was simply a PR puff piece featuriung Apple's head of marketing making PR-friendly statements about how they developed the new kb 'after listening to our Pro customers' / 'as teh result of lots of engineering effort' etc etc in order to not have to say outright that the butterfly kb was the failure that the press and the public all know it to be. It was an attempt to move on from the butterfly episode by the head of marketing without directly admitting it had been a failure, as is Marketing's way with these things. It was just a bit of PR. I feel you're simply flogging this line about Apple keeping the butterfly kb going in order to reassure yourself of your ownership of a 2019 butterfly kb. I understand this, but I think it's an emotional reaction that doesnt stand up to any kind of logical scrutiny.

It's not like I believe there is no chance that Apple could change KB mechanisms on the MBA next year. It is defiantly a possibility. I am just saying it is not a certainty, and I gave several reasons, not just the Schiller interview:

• The 2019 BF KB is more reliable than its predecessors. So, in conjunction with the 4 yr warranty, Apple might have turned the corner on the PR issue.
• It is costly to make the change, and it might not be worth it if MBA sales are strong.
• It is more difficult to implement a thicker KB in the MBA than the largest MBP. Yes, I cite Schiller, but isn't this just logical. The MBA is branded as an ultra portable everyday laptop, so size matters more to Apple with this model.
• With ARM processor as a possibility, bigger changes might be coming to the MBA in a few years, so it could be best for Apple to to hold off on changing the KB for a larger redesign until then.

My argument isn't that Apple will stick with the Butterfly KB forever. I am simply saying that it isn't a certainty that they will swap it out next year on their thinnest model (i.e. MBA). Honestly, the MBA is their entry everyday laptop, and I would guess that most MBA buyers don't even know it has a butterfly KB vs a scissor mechanism. They don't haunt the MR echo chamber of discontent, and they don't really care. They might know there is an extended warranty on the KB, and probably think that is great.

For my part, I really don't care if Apple changes to a different KB. I mean it has no impact on me personally. My 2019 MBA has been flawless, and I believe the latest iteration of the KB is improved in terms of reliability compared to the older versions. I have the 4 year warranty. If there is a problem, Apple is striving for next day turn around, and there is an Apple store a few miles from my house. I like the feel of the current KB. So, if Apple changes to the scissor mechanism, it really does not matter to me one way or another.

 

[motrek]

It's not like I believe there is no chance that Apple could change KB mechanisms on the MBA next year. It is defiantly a possibility. I am just saying it is not a certainty, and I gave several reasons, not just the Schiller interview:

• The 2019 BF KB is more reliable than its predecessors. So, in conjunction with the 4 yr warranty, Apple might have turned the corner on the PR issue.
• It is costly to make the change, and it might not be worth it if MBA sales are strong.
• It is more difficult to implement a thicker KB in the MBA than the largest MBP. Yes, I cite Schiller, but isn't this just logical. The MBA is branded as an ultra portable everyday laptop, so size matters more to Apple with this model.
• With ARM processor as a possibility, bigger changes might be coming to the MBA in a few years, so it could be best for Apple to to hold off on changing the KB for a larger redesign until then.

Bullet point #1: Again, improved reliability doesn't mean good reliability. I'm sure that Apple has improved the reliability of the butterfly keyboards enormously, but that statement means nothing by itself. It says nothing about how reliable the butterfly keyboards are vs. the scissor switch keyboards. So when you keep trotting out "improved reliability" as a reason to keep the butterfly keyboard, it just doesn't make any sense.

Bullet point #2: There's definitely going to be some cost associated with changing the MBA's keyboard, but what's the cost of continuing to manufacture a particular keyboard design for just one model line of laptop? (Presumably the 13" Pro will get the new keyboard soon.) That can't be cheap either.

Bullet point #3: The 16" MBP with the new scissor keyboard is 0.64 inches thick, then 15" MBP with the butterfly keyboard is 0.61 inches thick. That's a difference of less than 1 millimeter (0.76 mm) to switch to the new keyboard. Do you think that would even be noticeable for a laptop the size of the MBA? I owned the 2019 MBA for a little more than a week and it didn't feel any thinner than my 2014 MBA to me, and the difference between the two is 1.77 mm.

 

[Mainsail]

Bullet point #1: Again, improved reliability doesn't mean good reliability. I'm sure that Apple has improved the reliability of the butterfly keyboards enormously, but that statement means nothing by itself. It says nothing about how reliable the butterfly keyboards are vs. the scissor switch keyboards. So when you keep trotting out "improved reliability" as a reason to keep the butterfly keyboard, it just doesn't make any sense.

Bullet point #2: There's definitely going to be some cost associated with changing the MBA's keyboard, but what's the cost of continuing to manufacture a particular keyboard design for just one model line of laptop? (Presumably the 13" Pro will get the new keyboard soon.) That can't be cheap either.

Bullet point #3: The 16" MBP with the new scissor keyboard is 0.64 inches thick, then 15" MBP with the butterfly keyboard is 0.61 inches thick. That's a difference of less than 1 millimeter (0.76 mm) to switch to the new keyboard. Do you think that would even be noticeable for a laptop the size of the MBA? I owned the 2019 MBA for a little more than a week and it didn't feel any thinner than my 2014 MBA to me, and the difference between the two is 1.77 mm.

Got it.

So, you agree that the KB is more reliable, but you still think it is unacceptable (even though you bought one). Do you have any evidence of excess failures on the 2019 KB?

You agree that it is costly to change, but you think it might be more costly to produce two types of keyboards. Maybe, but in the near term, Apple has the contracts and supply chain in place for the existing keyboard so we really have no idea when is the best time to change.

As it relates to thickness, my point is that Apple might change the keyboard when it goes to an ARM processor, so they can take advantage of other improvements (no fan, smaller battery, etc) to keep the Air thin and light as possible. This would probably be in a few years during a normal redesign cycle. That would be more cost effective than doing two complete redesigns just for the keyboard.

It boils down to this: while I believe there is fair chance that Apple will stick with the current MBA design for a few more years, you believe it is almost certain that they will do a redesign next year just for the keyboard.

Ok. I don’t think either of us are being particularly irrational in our point of view.

 

[motrek]

Got it.

So, you agree that the KB is more reliable, but you still think it is unacceptable (even though you bought one). Do you have any evidence of excess failures on the 2019 KB?

I bought one because I needed a new laptop and it seemed like Apple was going to stick with the butterfly keyboard indefinitely. I didn't like buying a new laptop with the butterfly keyboard--actually it's the only thing I didn't like about the 2019 Air--but I didn't have much of a choice.

I'm not saying the butterfly keyboard has unacceptable reliability. I honestly don't know. But I do know that the scissor switch keyboards have a proven track record of reliability. The latest iteration of the butterfly keyboard may or may not be reliable--only time will tell. So when comparing "proven" vs. "maybe this time," I know which one I prefer between those two options.

You agree that it is costly to change, but you think it might be more costly to produce two types of keyboards. Maybe, but in the near term, Apple has the contracts and supply chain in place for the existing keyboard so we really have no idea when is the best time to change.

True, because maybe they wound down the supply chain months ago and at this point they're just getting rid of leftover inventory before releasing the new Airs. For all we know, they've been manufacturing new Airs for months now. We really just don't know, unfortunately.

As it relates to thickness, my point is that Apple might change the keyboard when it goes to an ARM processor, so they can take advantage of other improvements (no fan, smaller battery, etc) to keep the Air thin and light as possible. This would probably be in a few years during a normal redesign cycle. That would be more cost effective than doing two complete redesigns just for the keyboard.

Apple isn't really overly concerned with the size and thickness of the Air, though. It was a big deal in 2010 but not anymore. The 12" MacBook was dramatically smaller and thinner and lighter than the Airs at the time. The latest 13" Air is bigger and heavier than the outgoing 11" Air. I think you're reading too much into the name "Air." I don't see any reason why Apple would be reluctant to increase the Air's thickness by a fraction of a millimeter, especially if it means they could advertise it as having a new "Pro" keyboard.

 

[jgorman]

It is a little amusing though. In this keyboard service program, they replace a keyboard prone to failure with a keyboard prone to failure. After coverage expires in four years, people have to pay out of pocket for a keyboard prone to failure.

Apple probably wants this to be done sooner rather than later.

 

[motrek]

It is a little amusing though. In this keyboard service program, they replace a keyboard prone to failure with a keyboard prone to failure. After coverage expires in four years, people have to pay out of pocket for a keyboard prone to failure.

Apple probably wants this to be done sooner rather than later.

I think that when they fix a keyboard, they replace it with the latest iteration of the butterfly keyboard. I'm sure reliability has been steadily improving, so keyboard reliability might not be the disaster one might assume.

That all being said, I know how I would feel about Apple laptops if my butterfly keyboard failed 4 years and a day after I purchased the laptop...

Went shopping today and saw an HP Envy 13t on sale for $700. Much faster CPU than the Air, faster graphics, twice the storage (256GB, upgradeable!), fingerprint sensor, same footprint, it's actually a little bit thinner and lighter, and it has a keyboard that gets rave reviews online and presumably won't break if some dust gets on it. (And if it does break, it presumably wouldn't cost $900 to fix.)

Of course the Air is superior in some respects... higher-resolution screen... looks nicer (in my opinion)... USB-C charging. But come on. If I wasn't tied to MacOS, I would buy the HP in a second. Ugh.

 

[sracer]

It is a little amusing though. In this keyboard service program, they replace a keyboard prone to failure with a keyboard prone to failure. After coverage expires in four years, people have to pay out of pocket for a keyboard prone to failure.

This is the way that Apple can burn through their contractually-obligated volumes. If they simply ditched the keyboards (or paid the contractor for the balance of the contract) Apple has to eat the cost... but if it is part of a replacement program, they can write it off.

This works out well for Apple's bottom line, but not good for customer experience.

 

[Mainsail]

I think that when they fix a keyboard, they replace it with the latest iteration of the butterfly keyboard. I'm sure reliability has been steadily improving, so keyboard reliability might not be the disaster one might assume.

I agree.

However, in fairness to those with older MacBooks, while the 2018 and later models get the 2019 KB as replacements, the older models do not. They get replacements with the older generation KB. I am not exactly sure the reason, but I think the 2019 KB is incompatible with the older models. Anyway, I can understand the frustration of those with older KB replacements.

 

[motrek]

This is the way that Apple can burn through their contractually-obligated volumes. If they simply ditched the keyboards (or paid the contractor for the balance of the contract) Apple has to eat the cost... but if it is part of a replacement program, they can write it off.

This works out well for Apple's bottom line, but not good for customer experience.

There's been a lot of talk about contractual obligations for these keyboards but I'd be surprised if Apple's contracts work like that.

If Apple was contracting with a keyboard manufacturer, e.g., Logitech, to make these switches and keycaps and so forth, then sure, the contract might stipulate that Apple has to purchase X keyboard parts in Y amount of time.

But Apple designs their own keyboard parts, top-to-bottom. Presumably they tooled up some machinery at "their" factories (Foxconn's factories or whatever) to make all this stuff, and they can tell the factory to just shut off the machines whenever they feel like it. I just don't know who they would have a contractual obligation to, with regard to these keyboards.