With the improved keyboard, how many of us are moving back to MBP?

[c0ppo]

I agree, and because of that, I wonder why MS can't get it right.

To be honest, I'm more surprised that various linux distros can't do it right. Some do it better then others, but none nearly as good as MacOS.

For Windows I'm not surprised at all. To much bloated legacy code lying around. MS will have to cut the cord eventually, more they postpone it, worse it gets. Even some of their own apps suffer from scaling issues. And display resolutions aren't going back down, there is just one way for resolutions....

 

[Pangalactic]

I agree, and because of that, I wonder why MS can't get it right.

basically because windows keeps up reverse compatibility,as a lot of companies and businesses do not upgrade that quickly.

Apple on the other hand just marches onwards and throws everyone under the bus. You were a music developer and now most your plugins don’t work as the latest macOS doesn’t support 32 bit plug-ins anymore? Whoopsie, too bad for you!

 

[hajime]

I find it hard to decide between platforms these days. Before 2016, I did not need to do any thinking. I just bought the max version of whatever came out every 2-3 years.

With everything being soldered on the MBP 16" and the possibility that recovering data from the SSD may not be possible thanks to the T2, it will be expensive to repair the computer after three years. The magic keyboard should be OK but we have just used it for two weeks. Who knows what could happen down the road? Don't know if Apple will increase the thickness of the chassis in the next version of the MBP to improve thermal and performance. So I hesitate to spend about $6K on it.

For Windows PC, among the about 10 Lenovo Yoga/Thinkpad I have tried, they all have some QC issues. Since there is no physical Lenovo store, repairing is also at the mercy of whoever will take the case.

 

[SteveJUAE]

I find it hard to decide between platforms these days. Before 2016, I did not need to do any thinking. I just bought the max version of whatever came out every 2-3 years.

With everything being soldered on the MBP 16" and the possibility that recovering data from the SSD may not be possible thanks to the T2, it will be expensive to repair the computer after three years. The magic keyboard should be OK but we have just used it for two weeks. Who knows what could happen down the road? Don't know if Apple will increase the thickness of the chassis in the next version of the MBP to improve thermal and performance. So I hesitate to spend about $6K on it.

For Windows PC, among the about 10 Lenovo Yoga/Thinkpad I have tried, they all have some QC issues. Since there is no physical Lenovo store, repairing is also at the mercy of whoever will take the case.

Do you really believe you are going to walk in to a Apple store with a custom order MBP and walk out with a new or repaired one the same day

All your doing is saving Apple postage by driving to the store

I'm not saying Apple service is poor but reality is especially with soldered components and with top tier options its not going to be a speedy turn around regardless

Sitting around waiting for some tech to tell you what you already know is not going to make it any faster

In many countries that do not have Apple stores or 14 day or longer return windows is not even an option and I not so sure on a 6k laptop it should be too, its just a nice to have and probably does not out rank more than serviceable component options of other OEMs

 

[maflynn]

I find it hard to decide between platforms these days.

These days? You've been unable to come to a decision these past few years.

You have a machine that checked off all of what you need but now you're back in the throws of indecision

 

[hajime]

What I like:
The 16" screen
New keyboard
living in the Apple ecosystem
MacOS scaling and other refinements

In Windows 10, we can change the resolutions and font size independently. In Mac OS, it seems that we cannot do that. I used SwitchResX to increase the resolutions to 4K but I cannot increase the font size to make the text easier to see. Anybody knows a good way to scale the font size independent of the resolutions? So I think Windows 10 has better scaling.
[automerge]1575172681[/automerge]

Do you really believe you are going to walk in to a Apple store with a custom order MBP and walk out with a new or repaired one the same day

All your doing is saving Apple postage by driving to the store

I'm not saying Apple service is poor but reality is especially with soldered components and with top tier options its not going to be a speedy turn around regardless

Sitting around waiting for some tech to tell you what you already know is not going to make it any faster

In many countries that do not have Apple stores or 14 day or longer return windows is not even an option and I not so sure on a 6k laptop it should be too, its just a nice to have and probably does not out rank more than serviceable component options of other OEMs

I don't like Apple's decision to solder components and have that T2 chip.

With everything soldered, do they just swap the entire motherboard with components soldered with a new one?

 

[maflynn]

do they just swap the entire motherboard

Yes, and there's no way for them to retrieve your data if you were unable too. At one point there was a way for them to do that, with the inclusion of a port on the logic board, but that port has been removed.

n Windows 10, we can change the resolutions and font size independently

Yes, but some programs don't play nice with the scaling, and its not as sophisticated or polished.

 

[hajime]

Yes, and there's no way for them to retrieve your data if you were unable too. At one point there was a way for them to do that, with the inclusion of a port on the logic board, but that port has been removed.


Yes, but some programs don't play nice with the scaling, and its not as sophisticated or polished.

I have been using Windows for a year. I have no issue with scaling.

 

[maflynn]

I have been using Windows for a year. I have no issue with scaling.

I have, not major issues, but some programs not playing nice ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Why are you switching back to the mac then?

You seem to have a very good laptop in the P53, does everything you need it too, and instead you're obsessing over the 16" MBP, that uses an AMD GPU (which you need Nvidia), it doesn't play as nice with Linux, it uses a bunch of proprietary technologies like the T2. Seems to me, that you'll be spending more money for less, and having more issues.

 

[hajime]

Money-wise, with the configurations I want, the price of the P53 and MBP 16" are almost the same which is about 6K.

P53+large AC adapter is heavy. There seems to be more problems with my shoulder and the back these days. I had such issues in the past already. If I add more items in the bag, it gets worse. I have tried 8 different bags already.

When running CUDA applications, MBP 16" + Parallels + Linux is about 20-30% drop in performance compared with P53 with Nvidia GPU. So even with AMD GPU, it is not that bad. In the worse case, I just login to powerful workstation at home. Of course, if somebody can find a way to by pass the T2 chip to run Linux natively, that would be the best. I just assign 1TB each to Mac OS, Linux and Windows and make the MBP a triple boot system like the past. So my decision on whether to get a 2TB or 4TB SSD on the MBP 16
" depends on something that could happen in the future but nobody can predict. Adding 2TB is about $650 more.

The main issue is that I cannot find a Thinkpad without QC issues and my relationship with Lenovo is not good these days probably after all these returns. They did not say anything nor block me from buying. However, they just made returning very very very difficult. I guess it is an implicit warning. Due to the poor experience, if I encounter issue with the laptop later, I am concerned that I will not be taken care of. This drives me towards Apple especially now that they have "hopefully" fixed the keyboard issue.

The P53 is very good but it has four major issues: 1. Many users have complained that the chassis is not flat. Such expensive computer cannot sit still on a desk! 2. Getting a screen without backlight bleeding is very difficult. I read that people have to keep replacing until they get a good one or give up replacing. Given that it takes a month to get it shipped (BTO model 4-5 weeks!), I will just continue to waste my time each time I need an exchange. One could get an OLED model but the image quality is similar to IPS one. Moreover, there are visible ugly horizontal lines on the screen because of the touch panel and battery life is about 2 hours less than the IPS 4K screen. 3. Just like some X1C6 users reported, the LCD lid cannot be closed completely. There is a large gap. 4. Coil Whine. It seems that RTX4000 and RTX5000 have this issue when being pushed. If I take the risk and buy the P53 again, it is very likely that I may not get a refund this time even there are QC issues.

One new problem I found with the MBP 16" is that unlike Windows 10, I cannot set the font size and the resolutions independently. This is a bit of a turn off.

 

[jeyf]

last few years i was in shock to see Apple dig their high heels and refuse to move beyond the butterfly keyboard. Either that or they have the slowest development cycle on the planet.

i have a late 2016 MBP w/ the butterfly keyboard. With the hope engineering would tweak the original design into at least medium level performance i held off doing the warranty fix for quite some time.

even after the warranty work the MBP keyboard is still odd

back in 2016 my ill fated MBP was expen$ive. jsut difficult to forgive them.

 

[hajime]

Apple has restriction issues (limiting users with the T2 chip, soldering components on MB) while Lenovo has QC and Logistics issues. Other manufacturers do not seem to be any better.

 

[Falhófnir]

Money-wise, with the configurations I want, the price of the P53 and MBP 16" are almost the same which is about 6K.

P53+large AC adapter is heavy. There seems to be more problems with my shoulder and the back these days. I had such issues in the past already. If I add more items in the bag, it gets worse. I have tried 8 different bags already.

When running CUDA applications, MBP 16" + Parallels + Linux is about 20-30% drop in performance compared with P53 with Nvidia GPU. So even with AMD GPU, it is not that bad. In the worse case, I just login to powerful workstation at home. Of course, if somebody can find a way to by pass the T2 chip to run Linux natively, that would be the best. I just assign 1TB each to Mac OS, Linux and Windows and make the MBP a triple boot system like the past. So my decision on whether to get a 2TB or 4TB SSD on the MBP 16
" depends on something that could happen in the future but nobody can predict. Adding 2TB is about $650 more.

The main issue is that I cannot find a Thinkpad without QC issues and my relationship with Lenovo is not good these days probably after all these returns. They did not say anything nor block me from buying. However, they just made returning very very very difficult. I guess it is an implicit warning. Due to the poor experience, if I encounter issue with the laptop later, I am concerned that I will not be taken care of. So in this respect, Apple is better.

The P53 is very good but it has four major issues: 1. Many users have complained that the chassis is not flat. Such expensive computer cannot sit still on a desk! 2. Getting a screen without backlight bleeding is very difficult. I read that people have to keep replacing until they get a good one or give up replacing. Given that it takes a month to get it shipped (BTO model 4-5 weeks!), I will just continue to waste my time each time I need an exchange. One could get an OLED model but the image quality is similar to IPS one. Moreover, there are visible ugly horizontal lines on the screen because of the touch panel and battery life is about 2 hours less than the IPS 4K screen. 3. Just like some X1C6 users reported, the LCD lid cannot be closed completely. There is a large gap. 4. Coil Whine. It seems that RTX4000 and RTX5000 have this issue when being pushed. If I take the risk and buy the P53 again, it is very likely that I may not get a refund this time even there are QC issues.

Funnily enough someone has just started a thread complaining that the chassis fo their 16" MBP isn't perfectly flat - think that can happen with pretty well any computer. Ones made out of metal are probably more susceptible than plastic ones as metal bends and stays whereas plastic has a better tendency to snap back to its original shape.

 

[hajime]

Funnily enough someone has just started a thread complaining that the chassis fo their 16" MBP isn't perfectly flat - think that can happen with pretty well any computer. Ones made out of metal are probably more susceptible than plastic ones as metal bends and stays whereas plastic has a better tendency to snap back to its original shape.

It is very strange that laptops these days cannot even do the most basic thing of sitting still. For the P53, it seems that the chassis is a bit twisted, probably design or manufacturing fault. If I buy again, there is a high chance that I may have this problem again.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Money-wise, with the configurations I want, the price of the P53 and MBP 16" are almost the same which is about 6K.

P53+large AC adapter is heavy. There seems to be more problems with my shoulder and the back these days. I had such issues in the past already. If I add more items in the bag, it gets worse. I have tried 8 different bags already.

When running CUDA applications, MBP 16" + Parallels + Linux is about 20-30% drop in performance compared with P53 with Nvidia GPU. So even with AMD GPU, it is not that bad. In the worse case, I just login to powerful workstation at home. Of course, if somebody can find a way to by pass the T2 chip to run Linux natively, that would be the best. So my decision on whether to get a 2TB or 4TB SSD depends on something that nobody knows. Adding 2TB is about $650 more.

The main issue is that I cannot find a Thinkpad without QC issues and my relationship with Lenovo is not good these days probably after all these returns. They did not say anything nor block me from buying. However, they just made returning very very very difficult. I guess it is an implicit warning. Due to the poor experience, if I encounter issue with the laptop later, I am concerned that I will not be taken care of. So in this respect, Apple is better.

The P53 is very good but it has four major issues: 1. Many users have complained that the chassis is not flat. Such expensive computer cannot sit still on a desk! 2. Getting a screen without backlight bleeding is very difficult. I read that people have to keep replacing until they get a good one or give up replacing. Given that it takes a month to get it shipped (BTO model 4-5 weeks!), I will just continue to waste my time each time I need an exchange. One could get an OLED model but the image quality is similar to IPS one. Moreover, there are visible ugly horizontal lines on the screen because of the touch panel and battery life is about 2 hours less than the IPS 4K screen. 3. Just like some X1C6 users reported, the LCD lid cannot be closed completely. There is a large gap. 4. Coil Whine. It seems that RTX4000 and RTX5000 have this issue when being pushed. If I take the risk and buy the P53 again, it is very likely that I may not get a refund this time even there are QC issues.

Me thinks you complain too much

Seems your trying to talk yourself out of a fine machine that has more spec options than I can remember and up to 5 years onsite support OLED, best KB etc etc

Now its the weight of the power brick

Apple btw takes 3 weeks for a maxed out MBP and expect similar times at least for replacements or returns

If it is a true work tool you should be budgeting for 2 or at least 1.5 re .5 is a standby

If you want some pre testing and assurance then buy from HIDevoloution who pre test all laptops including panels light bleed and pixel count etc and stress testing for a modest fee

If you speak to Donald there you can even specify what other checks you want ie they will pick the best laptop, with the least bleed and 0 pixel defects, flat case etc

 

[maflynn]

Money-wise, with the configurations I want, the price of the P53 and MBP 16" are almost the same which is about 6K.

But you already own the P53, so you're not spending more money if you go with the P53.

There seems to be more problems with my shoulder and the back these days. I had such issues in the past already. If I add more items in the bag, it gets worse. I have tried 8 different bags already.

find a different method to carry the laptop

When running CUDA applications, MBP 16" + Parallels + Linux is about 20-30% drop in performance compared with P53 with Nvidia GPU.

The MBP uses a AMD GPU, you need a Nvidia don't you?

The P53 is very good but it has four major issues: 1. Many users have complained that the chassis is not flat.

Is yours flat? It doesn't matter if many people complain.

2. Getting a screen without backlight bleeding is very difficult. I read that people have to keep replacing until they get a good one or give up replacing.

Again, this isn't about other people, you've owned the P53 for a few months now, I would assume given your penchent for returning/replacing machines the one you have is near perfect.

Given that it takes a month to get it shipped (BTO model 4-5 weeks!), I will just continue to waste my time each time I need an exchange.

Is your current P53 defective? Btw, getting a BTO MBP will probably take almost as long, so your point is kind of moot. Either way, you'll have to wait for a replacement.

One could get an OLED model but the image quality is similar to IPS one.

Are you now looking to buy a new P53?

If I take the risk and buy the P53 again, it is very likely that I may not get a refund this time even there are QC issues.

You posted here that you still own the P53? Do you have it, or did you return it?

Very nice machine. Now I can confirm that it is possible to have RTX GPU and dead silent probably at the cost of thickness and heaviness. No jet engine noise like the X1E so I don't feel stress using it

 

[hajime]

But you already own the P53, so you're not spending more money if you go with the P53.


find a different method to carry the laptop


The MBP uses a AMD GPU, you need a Nvidia don't you?



Is yours flat? It doesn't matter if many people complain.


Again, this isn't about other people, you've owned the P53 for a few months now, I would assume given your penchent for returning/replacing machines the one you have is near perfect.


Is your current P53 defective? Btw, getting a BTO MBP will probably take almost as long, so your point is kind of moot. Either way, you'll have to wait for a replacement.



Are you now looking to buy a new P53?


You posted here that you still own the P53? Do you have it, or did you return it?

Yes, my machine has all the issues I mentioned. I don't have it anymore. Now I only have the MBP 16" which has the issue that the screen is blank a lot of time when the machine is being woke up (nobody else in this forum seems to have this issue so I guess it is just an individual case) and when the machine is shut down, sometimes like blowing-the-air sound come out (does not bother me that much). So either buying a new P53 which I think will have a high chance of having some sort of QC issues or get a MBP 16" with i9, 64GB and 2-4TB SSD or just get the base model of MBP 16", get some work done while waiting for the next re-design with hopefully replaceable components and thicker chassis to allow better performance.

And the thing is I am changing job so I don't know exactly what hardware I will need for the next three years. So decision making is difficult.

Now my MBP 16" has popping sound. It did not have this issue before. Perhaps I need to hold off ordering of 64GB MBP and see if Apple can fix it. Can't laptop manufacturers make descent laptops without issues? Too bad I did not purchase my own rMBP 15" 2015 after I returned it to school.

 

[maflynn]

I don't have it anymore

That's too bad, so you don't have the P53, and the MBP you currently have seems to have the typical issues that befall the MBPs. You're basically back to square one where you were a few years ago. Tbh, I don't think anything will please you.

Also please explain your comment about using CUDA in parallels with the MBP? Is that even possible because your MBP uses an AMD GPU. Am I missing something?

 

[hajime]

That's too bad, so you don't have the P53, and the MBP you currently have seems to have the typical issues that befall the MBPs. You're basically back to square one where you were a few years ago. Tbh, I don't think anything will please you.

Also please explain your comment about using CUDA in parallels with the MBP? Is that even possible because your MBP uses an AMD GPU. Am I missing something?

And the price of P53 increased. I guess it is Lenovo's dirty marketing tricks.

There are two versions of tensorflow (CUDA optimized and no-CUDA optimized). So I ran my programs under Parallels-Linux with non-CUDA optimized version of tensorflow and the result is 20-30% slower.

 

[c0ppo]

@hajime

Just purchase something. Anything. And unless that device dies, stick with it.
I would also love to have 2080Ti (desktop version) with millions of cores, and all under 1Kg. And that my phone charger could charge it.

I would also love to win in lottery, even though I don't even play it.
Wish me luck.

 

[hajime]

I am thinking about C940 15” or X1E Gen 2. The problem I have with MBP 16” is that font size cannot be changed independently of resolutions.

 

[hajime]

I considered taking back my 13" MacBook Pro and buying the 16", but ultimately I've decided Mac just is not going to work for my use case. I had high hopes that an eGPU would bridge the gap between Mac and Windows for gaming, but there are just too many roadblocks.

1. eGPU support in Bootcamp is non-existent. It takes a ridiculous amount of effort to get this setup to work. In my case, I never could despite trying multiple solutions.
2. Gaming on Mac took a bigger hit with Catalina as 32 bit apps no longer work. Many of my Steam games that have Mac versions will not run on Catalina at all and no word from devs if they will be updating their apps.
3. My Steam library is just too large to eliminate Windows entirely. While I love macOS (other than Catalina) and its ecosystem, gaming is still important to me and thus, Windows is primary.

So I ended up trading in my MacBook Pro for a 14" Lenovo Yoga C940. Only had it a day, but will submit a review later in the week.

Where is your review? I am interested in the C940 15".

 

[Queen6]

It is very strange that laptops these days cannot even do the most basic thing of sitting still. For the P53, it seems that the chassis is a bit twisted, probably design or manufacturing fault. If I buy again, there is a high chance that I may have this problem again.

Your expectations are simply too high for mass produced products and you can have as many if not more issues with the MBP. By far the vast majority of both machines produced will have zero issues.

Given how many notebooks you've been through I don't blame Lenovo for being cautious.

If you want the Mac just stick with it and be done with it. Bottom line is few here are going to make you feel better about the decision.

P53 was the better computer for the described usage, equally if you just want the MBP as it's Apple that's perfectly fine, equally the shortcomings are well known and you'll need to deal with them...

I do my research, physically look if available in store and purchase. I don't obsess over the small things as by nature all notebooks have compromises.

C940, here we go again ?

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

while Lenovo has QC and Logistics issues. Other manufacturers do not seem to be any better.

You're basically saying (and have implied in other posts) that every computer maker in the world is incapable of producing a proper laptop. This is where you need to start taking some personal responsibility.

While it's certainly possible to get a defective unit, it seems rather out of the realm of possibility that someone would continually receive so many defective laptops across computer models, and manufacturers. I don't know anyone on this forum or in real life that bought and returned soo many laptops because of defects.

We've all tried to help and I'm sure will continue, but this does feel like something from the movie groundhog day where you're living the same day over and over. Didn't you start looking for a laptop back in 2015 or 2016? You seem to be right back where you are 4 years ago.

 

[SteveJUAE]

You're basically saying (and have implied in other posts) that every computer maker in the world is incapable of producing a proper laptop. This is where you need to start taking some personal responsibility.

While it's certainly possible to get a defective unit, it seems rather out of the realm of possibility that someone would continually receive so many defective laptops across computer models, and manufacturers. I don't know anyone on this forum or in real life that bought and returned soo many laptops because of defects.

We've all tried to help and I'm sure will continue, but this does feel like something from the movie groundhog day where you're living the same day over and over. Didn't you start looking for a laptop back in 2015 or 2016? You seem to be right back where you are 4 years ago.

LOL

I think we have given OP an option to even get a pre-delivery QA check that can be customized re HIDevoloution

Maybe OP just enjoys playing at someone else expense and must be running out of OEM's tolerance on returns

I think it was quoted at $3b it costs OEM's for these easy returns policies and what annoys me is if you live in counties where it does not exist you still pay the same or more for the same product regardless of exchange rates etc

I recall some wag thought it was right to exchange 20 12"MB looking for perfection

Any relation ?