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Jamacfer

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2015
287
264
京都市
It’s still unclear why you made an “angry” reaction, but I no longer care.
This is a discussion on the purpose and value of the Vision Pro, a solution in search of a problem, and whether early adopters are keeping or returning the gear within the two-week window. Their findings may be instructive in the future.
I struggle to find anything naïve about holding to task Silicon Valley-based strides toward re-inventing wheels via overly complex inventions when there are other, far more out-of-box ways to approach solving problems which already exist (like the aforementioned self-driving/autopilot cars or, yes, the Vision Pro). Others in this thread have remarked on set-up times to use Vision Pro for tasks they could do much more quickly on extant devices. In other words, yet another minus.
As to whether Apple or others can find problems, ex post facto, for which the Vision Pro can solve uniquely or solely, is to be determined. But sage business practice, as hungry innovators the world over, time and again, can attest, a problem needs to be present, understood, and addressed head-on, while the solution of their innovation can solve that established problem.
There is no naïveté here. There is a pragmatism without a vested interest (whether as an early Vision Pro adopter or company shareholder). There is a case argument to be made around the insular thinking when the best Silicon Valley can churn out for innovation are the above-discussed paradigms/products whose problematics either rely upon thin rationale or don’t exist at all.
Apple are a publicly-traded company comprised of shareholders. In the end, shareholders shall not be denied, or else they will dump those shares for better, long-term investments. This is how publicly-traded corporations live and die. Although I don’t believe Apple are anywhere near this, the bigger a corporation gets, the slower they respond. The bigger they get, the more diversified they have to become to maintain growth.
What’s naïve is holding belief — one held tightly by capitalists — that growth is infinite.
tl;dr: “Too big to fail, so let’s create products which will bring out the worst in consumers — so long as our shareholders stay happy.”
Is that a world you want to leave for your kids? I certainly don’t.
I work in an all-Mac workplace and live in an all-Mac household. I used my first Mac in 1990. I sold Newtons in 1993 and 1994. I bought my first Mac in 1999.
Wanna run all that by me again? On second thought, save your breath.
I’m sorry you’re only able to misread the point I made around Vision Pro’s raison d’être — the problem(s) it solves — which is what again, exactly?
Take a good, hard look at, historically, the “luxury” items which plummet in value and which hold them.
Luxury can be gauche, outré, or timeless. This does mean the consumer, one able to afford luxury products, have a foresight, wherewithal, and prudence to discern between these.
Money — especially from new wealth — is no proxy for foresight, wisdom, or pragmatism, and it never has been. And this doesn’t begin to factor taste into the mix.
I am sorry if I somehow hurt your sensitivity but the "angry" smiley face was the only option to express my disagreement (the one with the thumb was missing) and honestly I had also forgotten it.

On the other hand, as for our interesting exchange of views, it is clear that we think differently and I don't believe the topic deserves any more precious time (we are also OT).

And, well, I admit that I am in a bit of a hurry: I have a driverless cab waiting for me because, before my wife gets back, I am going to sell her several luxury bags so (I hope) I can buy a second AVP. ;)
 
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Jamacfer

macrumors 6502
Sep 3, 2015
287
264
京都市
You know… there is nobody stopping you from finding, collecting, and analyzing that market research data, followed by assembling a report on your findings.

@pugxiwawa ’s observation here holds. That said, one better know that niche collector’s market like few others the world over — you know, not only the dedicated members and devotées over at forums.chanelrumors.com and, especially, forums.ferrariworld.com , but also the dedicated folks whose wheelhouse is in haute couture. :)
If you claim something you should be the one to provide the data. That's the way it works...;)
 
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arkitect

macrumors 604
Sep 5, 2005
7,131
13,123
Bath, United Kingdom
@robgreene It is interesting that you have been using the AVP to do some genuinely productive work in Lightroom… So that does give me some hope. 👍
A question I have is, when doing adjustments, how do you look at the image being transformed while adjusting the sliders at the same time? If you have to look at the sliders and move them by eye while tapping your fingers… how do you keep an eye on the real time changes?
I would assume you have an external keyboard hooked up?

Got mine yesterday and will almost certainly be returning it. I expected that I would dislike the weight and detached battery, but those actually weren’t an issue. This seems to be an uncommon opinion, but the eye tracking is just too finicky and made multitasking difficult. Simple tasks like selecting items in the settings list was dreadful and even after multiple recalibrations I still have difficulty interacting with small UI elements. I think people who haven’t used the AVP yet don’t quite grasp how you truly have to be looking directly at something in order to click on it. Windows in your peripheral are completely off limits unless you turn and face them. The keyboard in its current form is also almost completely unusable for me.

Glad to see others enjoying the experience because it truly is immersive on a whole new level, but I think this whole product line is probably dead for me if eye tracking is going to continue to be their sole input method.
This is my concern as well.

As the AVP is not yet available to buy and test in the UK, I have no current dog in this fight, so purely interested in others' observations which may inform my own decision later on.

What I do know is from my years using a Mac for my creative work is that I would find it tedious to be looking at every single element on my screen.
So much clicking and picking and drawing is done without me having to actually look at the input, and just concentrating on what I see happening on the canvas/artboard in front of me.

How would accurate adjustment of bezier curves work? I can only imagine them a nightmare. 🙂

Any reasonably competent artist using a computer — PC or Mac — will know how speedy it is to work with one hand on the keyboard doing the short cuts while the dominant hand is drawing on a tablet or 3d Touch haptic device.
You look at the screen while your hands are elsewhere engaged.

Imagine playing piano and having to look at every single note, imagine driving a car and having to look at the gear shift stick and the pedals…

To me the AVP (in its current form, and based on others observations) is a retrograde step in ease of use.
 
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Night Spring

macrumors G5
Jul 17, 2008
14,623
7,799
Remind me, do you own a Vision Pro at this point? I ask because I had a similar sentiment about windows and productivity in 3D space based on the promotional images and videos, but in reality it's proven to be chaos, and I think a lot of it comes down to how BIG these windows all have to be... each one takes up a TON of space! I believe future VisionOS updates will seek to rectify this in ways that COULD boost productivity, but for my money, it's initial implementation fell woefully short of expectations that were largely similar to yours going in.
I don't own a VP. I haven't even managed to demo a VP yet.

As for productivity, at least one poster seems to be using VP in a way I expected it to work.

I'm sure we all have different needs for how big we want VP windows to be. It's another way the device is extremely personal.


100%. I think they did the right thing releasing it. It's a device that will be great for those who choose to keep it, and will serve as a launching point for any future versions more suitable for the masses. It's fascinating: the Vision Pro is by far the most advanced and developed v1 product Apple has released, and yet can simultaneously feel "even more beta than most" at times. Quite the technological paradox.
It's a totally new way to interact with computers. Just like the point-and-click GUI was. Which reminds me, I originally hated GUIs, because I didn't like (and still don't like) using mouse. It was only when trackballs came out that I began enjoying using graphic interfaces. I think similar adjustments would be needed to make VP useable to more people.

I'm not planning to buy the VP yet, because I don't have $4000 to spend on a first gen, very beta product. But I'm looking forward to following its progress, and hopefully I'll be able to get one some generations down the line.
 

robgreene

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 12, 2008
215
611
As for productivity, at least one poster seems to be using VP in a way I expected it to work.

I'm sure we all have different needs for how big we want VP windows to be. It's another way the device is extremely personal.
Thanks for sharing this thread. After reading through this poster's workflow, it's pretty chaotic in and of itself. They are a writer using many apps to do what 1 solid writing app (Scrivener comes to mind) could do.

But even if we go the route of "hey to each their own"... Vision Pro actually seems to have hard limits on how small VisionOS windows can get. And that hard limit seems to consistently create scenarios where you're not likely to be looking at more than 2 full windows at any one time - even that's pushing it. And because of how the windows display, it is much harder to easily locate a window that gets "lost" behind another window... or 2 or 3. A Vision Pro version of "Mission Control" gesturing will be a welcome addition when it arrives!

Look forward to hearing your thoughts once you've gotten to experience it for yourself!
 

BayouTiger

macrumors 6502a
Jul 24, 2008
538
298
New Orleans
After a week, I have pretty much come to the conclusion that my usage case is just watching movies. While that's very cool, I don't see keeping it for just that. my nearest Apple Store is over 100 miles away so I give a good bit of consideration before deciding to buy new gear. Maybe just go in for a bigger monitor, though my trusty LG 5K has served me well and I'm not sure I see any real reason for that either.

May just save the 4K for something useful, like the Porsche Drivers school at Barber this summer! :)
(Ahhhh, the first world issues!!!)
 

Night Spring

macrumors G5
Jul 17, 2008
14,623
7,799
Thanks for sharing this thread. After reading through this poster's workflow, it's pretty chaotic in and of itself. They are a writer using many apps to do what 1 solid writing app (Scrivener comes to mind) could do.

But even if we go the route of "hey to each their own"... Vision Pro actually seems to have hard limits on how small VisionOS windows can get. And that hard limit seems to consistently create scenarios where you're not likely to be looking at more than 2 full windows at any one time - even that's pushing it. And because of how the windows display, it is much harder to easily locate a window that gets "lost" behind another window... or 2 or 3. A Vision Pro version of "Mission Control" gesturing will be a welcome addition when it arrives!

Look forward to hearing your thoughts once you've gotten to experience it for yourself!
I'm not sure what you find chaotic about his setup. It looks pretty organized to me. But hey, people's minds work in different ways.

I've heard of Scrivener, but never used it, so not sure exactly how it works. I hope he responds to you, an exchange between your different user perspectives would be very enlightening.

Window management in VP does seem to be a problem Apple needs to work on, and one of the ways in which VP feels like a beta product. But regarding window sizes, I saw a YouTube video where a VP user is cooking with the VP on, and has two pots on a stove, and sticks a timer on each pot. It's not how I would use VP, but point is, the timers were each smaller than the pots. So maybe some apps allow smaller windows than others?

I'll make sure to post my thoughts once I get to demo the VP. It may be a while, since it feels like it'll be a rather involved experience, so I want to do it when I have a whole day free to devote to it.
 

geauxmac

macrumors member
Jul 2, 2011
68
90
After having a session getting discouraged by the eye tracking, I realized that I just had to recalibrate the tracking and it’s working much better. Also the problem was due to switching from the single strap to the dual strap, each strap must alter the fit slightly enough to throw off the tracking.

Today I tried the Imax app. Go watch the free nasa movie with the views of earth. It’s jaw dropping. It also puts you in a virtual imax theater.

I was leaning towards returning but now I’m looking forward to each new app and content that comes out.

There’s so much potential and I want to experience it. In justifying the price, I see this as a $300 a month hobby for the next year. If I played golf, the green fees would be just as much plus buying a set of clubs.

I’m in the real estate business, and I’m planning on doing some spatial walk throughs with agents on their listings and then showing them the 3D playback. It’s quite impressive. Not particularly useful unless you can send it to someone with an AVP, but it still generates interest and gives us content for social media.

Anyway, got til Tuesday to send it back. But right now I’m 95/5 keeping it.
 
Today's the day my AVP and extra battery goes back to Apple.
Hoping Apple will ask for feedback on the reasons for the return....

I would imagine Apple are extremely interested and invested to field feedback from these initial buyer returns, as this roll-out amounts to a public beta of sorts.
 

3rdof33

macrumors newbie
Feb 13, 2024
9
5
I would definitely be returning it that's if I somehow had the moment and pulled my credit card and it has nothing to do with specs, it's simply when you come home and you realize you bought a gadget that cost more than your vehicle that is also new concept and 1st generation. I would probably have a couple of hours by the time they announce the new one and chances are i still have a few payments left 🤦‍♂️.

In this economy right now I believe 7 out 10 will find their way back to apple, the rest you'll find online market places or your local pawn shop. From a former marketing strategist point of view I never recommend skimming launch and as a gadget addict I'm offended by the price. The target market isn't a middle aged individuals with all ducks in a row, they are on long boards and bicycles or carpooling with ducks all over the place or no ducks at all the faces you see in almost every apple advertising! A thousand dollar might give them an incentive to work the summer or build credit but 3k? What's the message?
 
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TheKDub

macrumors regular
Oct 30, 2008
162
119

DAY 12

A funny thing happened today. During my remote editing session (posting up at a local Starbucks), I found myself really ENJOYING - maybe even PREFERRING - editing my photos using Vision Pro. It was such a breakthrough work session that it's legitimately reshaping my thoughts on keeping the device. Here are my takeaways:



OVERALL AND WHAT’S NEXT LEFT:
I'm keeping this thing for another day. I had that much fun with it today. My current thinking is that I'll still return my 512 AVP, then wait a couple months to get a 256 refurbished AVP (more on that to come in my final review), with no prescription lenses (they've been useless in my experience) and a third party case. If that gets me down from $5000 to somewhere in the $3000-3300 range, I think this first version of Apple Vision Pro would be an enjoyable investment that serves my uses well.
Maybe I missed it but how was your total price around $5000? 512GB, even with prescription optical inserts, a case, 2 years of Applecare coverage and taxes is around $4,600 where I am.
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
15,260
32,869
Came out to $4970-something here in Texas.

jaw-drop.gif


My...Goodness...
 

Eugr

macrumors regular
Dec 3, 2018
175
136
@robgreene - do you experience any glare? For me, that's the biggest issue I have with AVP. It's manageable for working, but gets very annoying if I want to enjoy a movie in the evening...
 

robgreene

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 12, 2008
215
611
@robgreene - do you experience any glare? For me, that's the biggest issue I have with AVP. It's manageable for working, but gets very annoying if I want to enjoy a movie in the evening...
When I think of "glare" I think of light leak. That I'm not experiencing in any notable measure. If you and others are referencing light from the displays reflecting/refracting off the lenses, that I do experience on occasion, but not in a way that has proven detrimental to my viewing experience.
 

Eugr

macrumors regular
Dec 3, 2018
175
136
When I think of "glare" I think of light leak. That I'm not experiencing in any notable measure. If you and others are referencing light from the displays reflecting/refracting off the lenses, that I do experience on occasion, but not in a way that has proven detrimental to my viewing experience.

Yes, that's what I'm referring to. It's mostly prominent when you have a dark background and a bright small object. I experience some haze on the periphery and multiple hazy spots in the center of my vision. The best way to test for it is to open Apple TV and watch their prehistoric planet immersive episode. When it starts, there is an Apple TV logo on a completely black background, and the glare/reflections are very noticeable.

It's like staring at the iPhone screen in the dark room with glasses that have dust/smudges on them. And yes, I cleaned the lens and inserts.

I wonder if some units are better in this regard. I guess I need to go to the local Apple Store and try one of their demo units again...
 

robgreene

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 12, 2008
215
611
A question I have is, when doing adjustments, how do you look at the image being transformed while adjusting the sliders at the same time? If you have to look at the sliders and move them by eye while tapping your fingers… how do you keep an eye on the real time changes?
I would assume you have an external keyboard hooked up?
@arkitekt I'm not sure if I'm following your question. This is what I see when I'm editing using the virtual desktop. It's every bit the same as if I was editing on a 40-50" monitor right in front of me. My workflow doesn't change at all in that regard. I use my keyboard and trackpad, typically with the laptop screen closed to a 30-45º angle. Works great!

One note: don't let the blurry edges of this screenshot fool you: that's not how it feels inside the AVP, but it IS how all screenshots seem to display for some reason. Hoping they iron that out in a future OS update.

Also, @Night Spring you can see on the left side of this image what I mean about window sizes. That's the Messages app clocking as large as my MacBook Pro virtual display. At it's smallest, the Messages window is about 2/3 of the size of the virtual display window as pictured here.
 

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arkitect

macrumors 604
Sep 5, 2005
7,131
13,123
Bath, United Kingdom
@arkitekt I'm not sure if I'm following your question. This is what I see when I'm editing using the virtual desktop. It's every bit the same as if I was editing on a 40-50" monitor right in front of me. My workflow doesn't change at all in that regard. I use my keyboard and trackpad, typically with the laptop screen closed to a 30-45º angle. Works great!

One note: don't let the blurry edges of this screenshot fool you: that's not how it feels inside the AVP, but it IS how all screenshots seem to display for some reason. Hoping they iron that out in a future OS update.
I was just wondering if you were relying on eye tracking and the built in virtual keyboard.

You answered my question perfectly. 👍

Thanks!
 
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