MP All Models A bit of a special question (Mac Pro Rack Thunderbolt over 3 floors)

[Pippi]

Hi Everyone!

Im looking to purchase & place a Mac Pro Rack version, Intel, in my serverrack in the basement and run 2x 20m corning optical thunderbolt 3 cables up to my office, where I have 2 XDR displays. The reason for doing this is

1. Zero noice from the computer in the office
2. Able to run windows natively on the Mac, due to Intel cpu (work requirement)
3. Utilizing the rack

Now, am I crazy for purchasing a Intel mac in 2023? The Mac chips are not able to run Windows natively for the foreseable future, as to my understanding?
Is there any Windows/PC that can send all (image, sound, usb, etc) over the TS3 connection to the XDR display so I dont have to purchase the Mac Pro?

 

[HDFan]

The Mac chips are not able to run Windows natively for the foreseable future, as to my understanding?

Windows 11 ARM runs under Parallels and natively, although not officially supported, on Apple Silicon.

Run Windows 11 on Arm with Parallels Desktop for Mac

IT leaders can allow users to run Windows 11 on Arm with Parallels Desktop for Mac Parallels Desktop is a Microsoft authorized solution.

www.parallels.com

 

[goMac]

Windows 11 ARM runs under Parallels and natively, although not officially supported, on Apple Silicon.

It is officially supported now by all parties, including Microsoft.

Options for using Windows 11 with Mac® computers with Apple® M1®, M2™, and M3™ chips - Microsoft Support

support.microsoft.com

 

[HDFan]

It is officially supported now by all parties, including Microsoft.

"Parallels® Desktop version 18 is an authorized solution for running Arm® versions of Windows 11 ..."

No native M support yet due to licensing, as I understand it.

 

[mattspace]

Hi Everyone!

Im looking to purchase & place a Mac Pro Rack version, Intel, in my serverrack in the basement and run 2x 20m corning optical thunderbolt 3 cables up to my office, where I have 2 XDR displays. The reason for doing this is

1. Zero noice from the computer in the office
2. Able to run windows natively on the Mac, due to Intel cpu (work requirement)
3. Utilizing the rack

Now, am I crazy for purchasing a Intel mac in 2023? The Mac chips are not able to run Windows natively for the foreseable future, as to my understanding?
Is there any Windows/PC that can send all (image, sound, usb, etc) over the TS3 connection to the XDR display so I dont have to purchase the Mac Pro?

It may not be applicable, but I recall Linus Tech Tips was trying to do this - using thunderbolt to put displays and peripherals in an office and the rig in a server room, and they abandoned it because it never worked reliably.

IIRC they eventually went to long optical displayport cables, and separate usb extension.

 

[deconstruct60]

"Parallels® Desktop version 18 is an authorized solution for running Arm® versions of Windows 11 ..."

No native M support yet due to licensing, as I understand it.

Covered on the referenced webpage.

" ... Note: You will need to acquire a separate license for Windows 11 Pro if you do not already have one. A unique license is required for each instance of Windows 11 Pro that you are running, either on a hardware or in a virtual machine. ..."

It is Microsoft's site. So if they are telling you to "go buy it" then not much issue left. Not suppose to use use 'home' version. And suppose to buy the Pro version ( 'for each instance' ) . There is a "I want to pay less" problem for some folks, but there is a licensing path.

 

[deconstruct60]

Hi Everyone!

Im looking to purchase & place a Mac Pro Rack version, Intel, in my serverrack in the basement and run 2x 20m corning optical thunderbolt 3 cables up to my office, where I have 2 XDR displays. The reason for doing this is

1. Zero noice from the computer in the office
2. Able to run windows natively on the Mac, due to Intel cpu (work requirement)
3. Utilizing the rack

Now, am I crazy for purchasing a Intel mac in 2023? The Mac chips are not able to run Windows natively for the foreseable future, as to my understanding?

There is 'raw iron' boot connotation of of 'natively' and there is 'run unmodified' more general notion of 'natively'. Booting straight past macOS and solely into Windows. That highly likely is not coming even long term. ( Ashai Linux is at least an example of why it is not going to come as it supposedly is demonstrative that it could come. 2+ years and still trying to completely reverse engineer the system. Why on Earth would Microsoft throw money into that the sinkhole money pit? Apple doesn't care if you waste your money tilting at windmills after buying a Mac , but they are not going to properly technically support it either. )

Windows on Arm running on M-series. Unless need some critical Windows secure boot, native GPU access , and/or some 32-bit x86 legacy code/driver semantics , it can work. Apple's hypervisor and virtualization framework are getting incrementally better over time so this will cover a 'large enough' class of use cases over time.

Is there any Windows/PC that can send all (image, sound, usb, etc) over the TS3 connection to the XDR display so I dont have to purchase the Mac Pro?

The "no physical buttons" XDR aren't really fully supported with no Mac/Apple drivers. It mostly works, but not complete.

Also going to have a Rube Goldberg situation where there is an external "loop back" DP cable from GPU card to TB card.. and then off into 20m of cable. Twice ( decent chance going to need two TBv3 cards. One XDR per TBv3 card. ) . If those two TBv3 cards are going into 'watered down' PCI-e allocation slots in the Windows/PC then high loads of the USB I/O (and/or aggregate non display bandwidth) probably could get flakey. If it just keyboard/mouse hooked to XDR, then fine. If trying to run all the high bandwidth through the XDR because it is 2 floors down to plug in an external SSD then probably not so good. [ Actually not sure how many PC workstation boards fully support two TB cards either as there is a GPIO socket connection. Some boards there is a specified socket suppose to put the TB card into. ]

If throw enough workarounds at it things will get to a happens to work state.

 

[HDFan]

No native M support yet due to licensing, as I understand it.

So if they are telling you to "go buy it" then not much issue left.

Should have been clearer. Supposedly it is a Qualcomm/Microsoft license that prohibits Windows ARM to run natively on the M series chips. This is speculation, as well as the rumor that that license will be expiring soon which would allow Windows to run natively on ARM.

 

[deconstruct60]

Should have been clearer. Supposedly it is a Qualcomm/Microsoft license that prohibits Windows ARM to run natively on the M series chips. This is speculation, as well as the rumor that that license will be expiring soon which would allow Windows to run natively on ARM.

Not sure I would label that a 'license'. It is also rather dubious contract. Windows is running Azure Ampere Computing instances in Azure also.

When Microsoft bought Nokia and first started the Windows RT path it made sense to just keeping Qualcomm for the SoC. A substantively part of this is just inertia. It highly like not legally bound to Qualcomm as there is no viable options other than Qualcomm. Apple isn't offering up Arm SoC to third party vendors. It makes about zero sense for Windows to get locked into anything that the major Windows System Builder partners can't have access to.

If Microsoft was bound to Qualcomm while MediaTek and Samsung where both delivering 10-20% better general performance Arm solutions then there might be some "smoke" to go along with "contractually bound to only use Qualcomm" 'fire'. Microsoft using the best available that matches the Windows laptop market for Arm SoC option that is still significantly slower than the x86 options ... Why is there some 'mystery' that requires so super secret agreement?

A wider variety of even slower Arm powered systems is going to be a major boost to Windows on Arm viability over the short term? Nope. ( look over at the Chromebook market. There are not multiple Arm SoC doing extremely well (profits and run rates) over there. ) 2-3 years ago who would have picked an mediaTek if had qualcomm as a choice for SoC?


"but Apple Mac with M-series are faster performance option"... Sure but Apple isn't doing about zero amount of work to be a good Windows hardware platform parter. Developed native secure boot and kernerl drivers for Windows? No. Willing to sell hardware to other system builders? No. Documentation so Microsoft can do it themsevels? No. Commitment to product support? No. Qualcomm who is doing drivers , boot support, technical support and all the efforts that a hardware level Windows partner is suppose to do .... why do they need a punative constract to bind Microsoft working with them as opposed to Apple who actively doesn't want to do the work. Apple is willing to put in work on hypervisor/virtualization support. So that is where Windows is running. And a virtualized Linux is likely a higher strategic pressing need for Apple than a Windows one. ( the Arm SoC adoption rate in server space is going much, much , much faster than Windows Arm is progressing. )


Ampere Computing has higher performance than Qualcomm SoC and getting Windows onto those hasn't been a problem. Again a SoC vendor willing to do the low level work required of a platform partner and ta-da Windows appears.

Microsoft has some contracts with Qualcomm for some lightly semi-custom Arm SoCs. SQ1 , SQ2 ... I suspect those are being conflated into "Qualcomm has Windows on exclusive lock-out" Sure, MS is unlikely going to want to sign another contract for a laptop SoC with yet another vendor when already have one in hand.

 

[avkills]

Hi Everyone!

Im looking to purchase & place a Mac Pro Rack version, Intel, in my serverrack in the basement and run 2x 20m corning optical thunderbolt 3 cables up to my office, where I have 2 XDR displays. The reason for doing this is

1. Zero noice from the computer in the office
2. Able to run windows natively on the Mac, due to Intel cpu (work requirement)
3. Utilizing the rack

Now, am I crazy for purchasing a Intel mac in 2023? The Mac chips are not able to run Windows natively for the foreseable future, as to my understanding?
Is there any Windows/PC that can send all (image, sound, usb, etc) over the TS3 connection to the XDR display so I dont have to purchase the Mac Pro?

You will also need to figure out how to do any bluetooth connectivity for the mouse (unless you plan on doing something else.)

Using a XDR display with anything other than a Mac is more than likely going to be a painful experience.

 

[HDFan]

Not sure I would label that a 'license'

Good points. Yeah, contract would have been a better word than license.

Qualcomm has an exclusivity deal with Microsoft for Windows on ARM

The reason that Windows on ARM PCs that have been released so far have Snapdragon chipsets is because of an exclusivity deal with Qualcomm.

www.xda-developers.com

Qualcomm actually has an exclusivity deal with Microsoft for Windows on ARM, and speaking with people familiar with it, we've learned that the deal is set to expire soon.

Microsoft’s Qualcomm exclusivity deal for Windows on Arm reportedly ending soon

The end of the deal could mean more Arm-based laptops.

www.theverge.com

Qualcomm reportedly has an exclusivity deal with Microsoft for Windows on Arm licenses.

Apparently, in 2016, Microsoft entered into an exclusivity deal with Qualcomm. That's why all official 'Windows on ARM' devices use Qualcomm SoCs.

Microsoft is still far behind: Windows on ARM | Jeff Geerling

www.jeffgeerling.com

The articles are dated, like 2021, so "to expire soon" doesn't seem to have happened.
and so on ....

 

[doobydoooby]

Are you sure you need to hide the Mac away in the basement so you have zero noise in your office? I use the same Mac Pro as you are considering, it sits a couple of metres away from me and it’s really quiet. I dont remember the last time I heard the fan other than at start up. Just saying… it might be worth checking out a real life dB experiment before putting yourself to too much hassle

 

[argasek]

If those two TBv3 cards are going into 'watered down' PCI-e allocation slots in the Windows/PC then high loads of the USB I/O (and/or aggregate non display bandwidth) probably could get flakey. [ Actually not sure how many PC workstation boards fully support two TB cards either as there is a GPIO socket connection. Some boards there is a specified socket suppose to put the TB card into. ]

I have a configuration like this on PC and "flakey" describes the stability of the solution pretty precisely. I did it mostly because I wanted to run 2x LG 5K (LG 27MD5K-B) monitors in full 5K resolution each and the struggle to get there was... Well, it was a very windows-like experience. Long story short -- it's doable - I run 2xDP out from 1 GPU (Radeon 6900XT) into 2x DP In on the motherboard (Asus ProArt Z690) and another 2xDP out (from nVidia RTX 3080) to 2x Mini DP in to ASUS ThunderboltEX 4 expansion card. According to ASUS, such configuration is not supported, as the ThunderboltEX card should have GPIO connection to the mobo, which ProArt Z690 doesn't have. Running Windows 11.

Monitors work, I have some other USB stuff plugged in (USB3 audio interface, USB2 mouse & keyboard, some MIDI controller etc.), but:
1) sometimes one of the monitors is not detected after a cold boot, I have to manually pull out TB plug from the monitor and plug it in back again; usually it's enough to make it detected. And usally happens with nVidia-driven one
2) everything goes haywire if I connect anything running 4K to HDMI outputs of the card, it looks like there's not enough bandwidth
3) sometimes even plugging in additional USB3 device like a pendrive can result in one of the monitor signals going blank
4) sometimes (especially after GPU drivers update on Radeon card) the left and right side of the screen can be vertically shifted against each other. Sometimes monitor gets detected as one running half of the horizontal resolution.

I can't say how many hours I've spend, BIOS updates performed, driver combos tried etc. trying to pinpoint these issues and make things work.

TL;DR -- I don't know about XDR, but running such setup with 5K TB3 monitors on Windows is problematic at best. I think the issue is with either the USB controller on the mobo, not enough PCIe lanes, unsupported combo of hardware, etc. I think it makes a lot of more sense to run it on Mac Pro 2019 -- which I intend to try as soon as I put my hands on one. Good luck OP!

p.s. I'd suggest trying such setup (i.e. MP 2019) on a short distance first and run 3rd TB cable to some hub (Caldigit) instead trying to use USB ports on the XDRs, to avoid bandwidth limitation.