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chfilm

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Nov 15, 2012
3,336
2,004
Berlin
Hey guys,

so I understand that there'll of course be the option to add more SSD storage via pcie expansion cards. Ok, but what about the slots where Apple is gonna put their SSDs on to?
It has two slots, so let's say I get the 2x512gb option, and later would upgrade to 2x1TB. Do you think it will be possible to swap those SSDs out somehow? Or are they gonna be soldered or something?
 

thisisnotmyname

macrumors 68020
Oct 22, 2014
2,438
5,251
known but velocity indeterminate
Hey guys,

so I understand that there'll of course be the option to add more SSD storage via pcie expansion cards. Ok, but what about the slots where Apple is gonna put their SSDs on to?
It has two slots, so let's say I get the 2x512gb option, and later would upgrade to 2x1TB. Do you think it will be possible to swap those SSDs out somehow? Or are they gonna be soldered or something?

I don't expect they're soldered but there's likely a pairing process that needs to take place to the T2. Whether that can happen outside of authorized repair center tools is questionable. I suppose if anyone has done it with the iMac Pro we'd know. Also keep in mind those aren't full SSDs, the T2 IS the controller and the blades are just storage, so you can't just pick up your own NVMe drives to replace them, you'd have to purchase the replacement blades from Apple.

edit: just saying "I don't expect" wasn't strong enough, to me it's clear from the images online that those are removable items in slots.
 
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chfilm

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Nov 15, 2012
3,336
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Berlin
I don't expect they're soldered but there's likely a pairing process that needs to take place to the T2. Whether that can happen outside of authorized repair center tools is questionable. I suppose if anyone has done it with the iMac Pro we'd know. Also keep in mind those aren't full SSDs, the T2 IS the controller and the blades are just storage, so you can't just pick up your own NVMe drives to replace them, you'd have to purchase the replacement blades from Apple.

edit: just saying "I don't expect" wasn't strong enough, to me it's clear from the images online that those are removable items in slots.
thanks, so probably not user upgradable. Yea they do look pretty swappable, but probably somehow because of the T2 it's not gonna be so easy.
 

SkeptiDC

macrumors newbie
Nov 12, 2019
6
1
Wait so let's say I'd like to use my existing SSD boot drive from my old Mac Pro, it sounds like that it wouldn't be possible to just pop it in and go? I'd have to use the boot drive that's shipped with the nMP and then copy over my data?
 

tommy chen

macrumors 6502a
Oct 1, 2018
907
389
Wait so let's say I'd like to use my existing SSD boot drive from my old Mac Pro, it sounds like that it wouldn't be possible to just pop it in and go? I'd have to use the boot drive that's shipped with the nMP and then copy over my data?


the safest way is to use the migration assistant during first start setup without application migration
 
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SkeptiDC

macrumors newbie
Nov 12, 2019
6
1
the safest way is to use the migration assistant during first start setup without application migration

Ok, so I'm correct that I would not be able to insert my old SSD into the new Mac Pro? And do you know if the migration assistant would work if I'm coming from El Capitan (can't upgrade any higher due to age of current Mac Pro)?
 

MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Sep 15, 2015
2,883
2,363
Portland, Ore.
Is there really a pairing process for the flash cards? I see used ones on eBay pulled from iMac Pros people have upgraded so I just assumed you can pop in new ones. There should be no problem installing your old SSD boot drive in an adapter and then enabling it for boot with the T2 utility. You might have to reinstall the OS over it though on the new machine in case it requires a special build.
 

AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,676
The Peninsula
Hey guys,

so I understand that there'll of course be the option to add more SSD storage via pcie expansion cards. Ok, but what about the slots where Apple is gonna put their SSDs on to?
It has two slots, so let's say I get the 2x512gb option, and later would upgrade to 2x1TB. Do you think it will be possible to swap those SSDs out somehow? Or are they gonna be soldered or something?
The 7,1 does not have any SSDs.

Let me repeat - the 7,1 does not have any SSDs.

The 7,1 has a T2 chip that has a 0 GiB SSD controller. No flash.

The T2 chip has two daughtercard ports for flash cards. The flash cards aren't SSDs, they're a dumb proprietary Apple flash module that provides the flash for the T2.

There's no SSD. There's a controller in the T2 chip that is presented to the OS as an SSD. The T2 chip plus one or two daughtercards is presented to the OS as mass storage.

You cannot get an off-the-shelf SATA or NVMe SSD and connect it to the T2 chip.
 

H. Flower

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2008
744
828
The 7,1 does not have any SSDs.

Let me repeat - the 7,1 does not have any SSDs.

The 7,1 has a T2 chip that has a 0 GiB SSD controller. No flash.

The T2 chip has two daughtercard ports for flash cards. The flash cards aren't SSDs, they're a dumb proprietary Apple flash module that provides the flash for the T2.

There's no SSD. There's a controller in the T2 chip that is presented to the OS as an SSD. The T2 chip plus one or two daughtercards is presented to the OS as mass storage.

You cannot get an off-the-shelf SATA or NVMe SSD and connect it to the T2 chip.

Thank you for clearing this up.
 
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Parzival

macrumors regular
May 12, 2013
152
290
The 7,1 does not have any SSDs.

Let me repeat - the 7,1 does not have any SSDs.

The 7,1 has a T2 chip that has a 0 GiB SSD controller. No flash.

The T2 chip has two daughtercard ports for flash cards. The flash cards aren't SSDs, they're a dumb proprietary Apple flash module that provides the flash for the T2.

There's no SSD. There's a controller in the T2 chip that is presented to the OS as an SSD. The T2 chip plus one or two daughtercards is presented to the OS as mass storage.

You cannot get an off-the-shelf SATA or NVMe SSD and connect it to the T2 chip.

Man that is quite awful. Would be so easy if you could just put a couple of M2's in those slots.
Truly expandable my ass.
 
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fastlanephil

macrumors 65816
Nov 17, 2007
1,289
274
I’m not sure where ibuildmacs.com is getting there technical information about the 2019 Mac Pro but they show Slot 1 and Slot 2 inhabited by NVMe SSDs that use the PCIe 3.0 controller, encrypted by the T2 chip.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Nov 15, 2012
3,336
2,004
Berlin
I’m not sure where ibuildmacs.com is getting there technical information about the 2019 Mac Pro but they show Slot 1 and Slot 2 inhabited by NVMe SSDs that use the PCIe 3.0 controller, encrypted by the T2 chip.
Ha not sure if Ibuildmacs.com
Is a reliable source, they also let you configure 4 mpx modules..
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,385
3,945
Wait so let's say I'd like to use my existing SSD boot drive from my old Mac Pro, it sounds like that it wouldn't be possible to just pop it in and go? I'd have to use the boot drive that's shipped with the nMP and then copy over my data?

Depends upon just how old the Mac Pro is. If the Mac Pro doesn't run macOS 10.15 then you don't have an OS that is compatible with the new Mac Pro. ( If running "Bubba's hack to make it fit" then that is a 'don't have' status. So "old" as in MP 2013 there is a path. "old" as in 2009-2012 no.

If you boost to latest, greatest macOS that is new than what the Mac Pro 2019 launches with then can get into the "insert a 2nd drive space". You'd need to boot off the internal drive ( and pragmatically leave a small nominal macOS instance there). Create an account. Then can go into recovery mode and lower the threshold on secure boot ( boot internal T2 drive only). . Then simply need a mounting bracket/card for your SSD.

As another poster pointed out there is a path using Migration assistant. You can migrate over Users and possible apps to the new system. ( If this disk's OS has been upgraded over 5-6 times. it may be prudent to do a clean app upgrade at this point. Reinstall the non MacApp store apps with modern installers. More than likely have kernel extension cruft that are betting that Migration assistant is going to automagically filter out of you. ).
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.... Ok, but what about the slots where Apple is gonna put their SSDs on to?
It has two slots, so let's say I get the 2x512gb option, and later would upgrade to 2x1TB. Do you think it will be possible to swap those SSDs out somehow? Or are they gonna be soldered or something?

Those aren't SSDs. What Apple has done is implement a single SSD with three (sometimes 2 ) physical parts. The T2 contains the SSD controller (the brians). Those slots that the cards fit into a just storage NAND chips. Not a SSD. There is a small communication buffer between the chips on the card that is used to communicate back the SSD controller in the T2; but the cards are super duper 'dumb'.

To later "upgrade' is essentially getting new internal components of a SSD. Pragmatically it is more like buying a new one than a upgrade. The cards will have to be paired to the T2 (and SSD controller). That should effectively wipe out and reset the whole SSD. If there is no backup the data is gone. The meta data the T2 uses about the wear conditions on the drive and much of the other maintenance control will wiped out with the change. ( pragmatically these should only be new , unused, NAND daugther cards ). All the metadata gets toasted with the regular data is yank the old cards.

There are no 3rd parties who "upgrade" other people's SSD internals. So there shouldn't be much expectation that someone else is going to upgrade the internals of Apple's SSD either.
[automerge]1575927284[/automerge]
I’m not sure where ibuildmacs.com is getting there technical information about the 2019 Mac Pro but they show Slot 1 and Slot 2 inhabited by NVMe SSDs that use the PCIe 3.0 controller, encrypted by the T2 chip.

That basically disagrees with the Apple block diagram for the iMac Pro. Folks shouldn't get all twisted here. This drive implementation foundation for the Mac Pro has been in deployment for two years at this point. It extremely likely is the same basic system that has been running in the iMac Pro.

The cards may have a diferent color scheme than the iMac Pro cards, but is the same T2 so likely the exact same methodology. The T2 doesn't 'talk' NVMe to the card. There is a special subset of PCI-e that Apple uses ( sPCI-e or something like that. )
 
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chfilm

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Nov 15, 2012
3,336
2,004
Berlin
What would be the downside of later putting SSDs on an expansion card into the Mac Pro if I just need them as a cache disk? What kind of speed differences can I expect? Just need to know if I have tomorrow to pull 2TB or if 1 will be sufficient. I’m happy on my 6.1 with 512gb but I might not always wanna run an external TB2 ssd raid just for caching purposes..
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,385
3,945
What would be the downside of later putting SSDs on an expansion card into the Mac Pro if I just need them as a cache disk? What kind of speed differences can I expect?

It depends upon what have in the all of the other slots and how the Mac Pro 2019 oversubscription of lane bandwidth is doles out both on the CPU an the I/O Chipset (PCH).

Most likely the T2 is hanging off the the PCH. I suspect that the 10Gb/E may also be hanging off of that.

If don't have high bandwidth consumers in just about every slot there probably shouldn't be substantive differences between later getting a 3rd party card for a bigger Cache (or Workspace) and the T2's bandwidth. The T2 is pretty much capped around x4 PCI-e v3 ( and possibly less the more you load down the PCH).

Spreading the Cache/Working set bandwidth demands out to an entirely different PCi-e bundle actually should help incrementally ( not be worse to making everything one bit muddled pile. ). That may end up costing a bit more. Samsung 970 Pro M.2 around $300 and high bandwidth card $250 would be more than the $400 step up for the T2 increments. But it is a better load spread is leaning heavingly on cache/workspace.


Just need to know if I have tomorrow to pull 2TB or if 1 will be sufficient. I’m happy on my 6.1 with 512gb but I might not always wanna run an external TB2 ssd raid just for caching purposes..

If budget is already stretched then another $400 to "future proof" it probably isn't a good move. In the future there will be more affordable options to more storage. 1TB is already a doubling of what you have.
Unless currently seriously planning to install some huge pig of an application, I'd spend that difference on something else. ( more than a few 'huge pig' footprint applications don't necessarily need to be in the Applications folder on the boot drive. decent apps should figure out what their relative path should be. )
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Nov 15, 2012
3,336
2,004
Berlin
It depends upon what have in the all of the other slots and how the Mac Pro 2019 oversubscription of lane bandwidth is doles out both on the CPU an the I/O Chipset (PCH).

Most likely the T2 is hanging off the the PCH. I suspect that the 10Gb/E may also be hanging off of that.

If don't have high bandwidth consumers in just about every slot there probably shouldn't be substantive differences between later getting a 3rd party card for a bigger Cache (or Workspace) and the T2's bandwidth. The T2 is pretty much capped around x4 PCI-e v3 ( and possibly less the more you load down the PCH).

Spreading the Cache/Working set bandwidth demands out to an entirely different PCi-e bundle actually should help incrementally ( not be worse to making everything one bit muddled pile. ). That may end up costing a bit more. Samsung 970 Pro M.2 around $300 and high bandwidth card $250 would be more than the $400 step up for the T2 increments. But it is a better load spread is leaning heavingly on cache/workspace.




If budget is already stretched then another $400 to "future proof" it probably isn't a good move. In the future there will be more affordable options to more storage. 1TB is already a doubling of what you have.
Unless currently seriously planning to install some huge pig of an application, I'd spend that difference on something else. ( more than a few 'huge pig' footprint applications don't necessarily need to be in the Applications folder on the boot drive. decent apps should figure out what their relative path should be. )

Thanks for the detailed answer. I don’t plan to add any other PCIe cards as of now, only something maybe later for flash storage and eventually afterburner and another GPU maybe in a few years.
 

flygbuss

macrumors 6502a
Jul 22, 2018
727
1,262
Stockholm, Sweden
What would be the downside of later putting SSDs on an expansion card into the Mac Pro if I just need them as a cache disk? What kind of speed differences can I expect? Just need to know if I have tomorrow to pull 2TB or if 1 will be sufficient. I’m happy on my 6.1 with 512gb but I might not always wanna run an external TB2 ssd raid just for caching purposes..

Can I ask you what kind of TB2 raid you're using? Sorry for OT!
 
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