AMD Discussion

[koyoot]

http://videocardz.com/63242/amd-zen-stuff
http://www.anandtech.com/show/10578...rs-micro-op-cache-memory-hierarchy-revealed/4

Be cautious however with this. It can mean absolutely everything. For example when AMD compares Zen to Broadwell E at the same clock speed, it may mean that the Broadwell-E was declocked to Zen levels.

If Zen will be able to achieve 3.5 GHz stock core clock, it will be on the same level of performance as Broadwell-E/EP CPUs. In smaller thermal design envelope. Zen is 95W CPU in 8 core configuration, and is direct competitor for i7-6700/K, not Broadwell-E/EP.

 

[cube]

Zen needs to also have DDR3 support and be compatible with AM3+.

This is the AMD way, and one of the main reasons people choose it over Intel.

 

[koyoot]

Yup, was right. Both CPUs were clocked at 3 GHz.

Zen needs to also have DDR3 support and be compatible with AM3+.

This is the AMD way, and one of the main reasons people choose it over Intel.

This is only your perception of the brand. And with that you drive your mindshare of what it should be, not what it will be. I don't think it is fair for AMD.

P.S. You have proven me right, that biggest problem AMD currently has is the mindshare and perception of their brand.

 

[cube]

It is not my perception. The main reasons people choose AMD are:

- They are against Intel having a monopoly and their improperly punished anti-competitive behavior.
- They are against Intel requiring a new motherboard to upgrade to a newer CPU generation.
- They are against Intel requiring a newer CPU to upgrade to a newer motherboard generation.
- They don't want to pay exorbitant prices.
- They believe ECC is for everybody.

 

[koyoot]

What would be benefits for the CPU to support AM3+ and DDR3, instead of AM4 and DDR4?

What you do not understand is yes, this was your perception of the brand. All of what you have written is accounting for it.

AMD has changed. They are building new brand both in GPU and in CPU divisions. Zen is the emanation of it.

But dont worry. AM4 will be here to stay for several years.

 

[cube]

What would be benefits for the CPU to support AM3+ and DDR3, instead of AM4 and DDR4?

What you do not understand is yes, this was your perception of the brand. All of what you have written is accounting for it.

AMD has changed. They are building new brand both in GPU and in CPU divisions. Zen is the emanation of it.

But dont worry. AM4 will be here to stay for several years.

Who said instead?

For example, AM3 CPUs supported DDR3, DDR2, and AM2+.
Then, AM3+ motherboards supported AM3 CPUs.

When your DDR2 motherboard burned, you bought am AM2+ motherboard and an AM3 CPU.

When your AM2+ motherboard burned, you bought an AM3+ motherboard, and DDR3 memory (which had a normal price now).

You should not be required to buy DDR4 memory and a new motherboard after one year, now that there would be something with at least as many FP units as your 6-core Phenom II.

 

[koyoot]

Why would you buy AM4 motherboard after one year?

Secondly. AM4 will be used for APUs, not only CPUs. And they will have different technology(not at first glimpse at least).

In upcoming future expect HBM2 chips on the package. AM4 is not about today.

 

[cube]

You want Zen because you have waited years to properly upgrade your hot and noisy 6-core Phenom II.

And after being forced to buy old AM3+ tech, you don't want to replace everything so soon.

This is how AMD's customers think.

 

[koyoot]

Wait, what?

You have waited all those years with one CPU to replace it, to buy just before release of next generation platform new motherboard for it? Which turns out to be incompatible?

Where is the logic here? I don't understand your point, unfortunately.

AM3 was released in 2009(!). 7 years ago. AM3+ is just updated version of it to support Bulldozer (I had to check this in Wikipedia, because I never cared about AMD CPU platforms). Why would you want to release new CPU architecture on platform that is 7 years old? From technical point of view that is simply stupid.

 

[cube]

The logic is that you either bought Intel or an AM3+ motherboard hoping that future AMD CPUs would follow the pattern.

So AMD is failing their faithful customers if they don't provide backward compatibility.

Moving from Phenom II 6-core to current FX is barely an upgrade, so not justified.

Their Bulldozer concept was a massive mistake.

I don't think you understand how AMD compatibility has worked.

 

[koyoot]

Why you bought one or another? Because they were in different performance category. Lets cut to the chase. AMD CPUs in the past were woefully, hopelessly rubbish.

You are free to be entitled to your opinion. I do not care about this, because... I do not care about Zen, until it will be faster than Broadwell EP CPUs, which it won't be.

However, AMD is building their brand. There are technical reasons to change sockets. And only perception of the brand is dictating the look at it at this point of time.

 

[Stacc]

Amd is making some bold claims in saying they can match broadwell-e. they have a lot of ground to make up and dont forget performance per watt is more important than top end performance. While I hope they can catch Intel, I am skeptical of their claims after Polaris, which is manufactured on the same process as zen, did not have great efficiency.

They also have to convince the average consumer they need more than the four cores Intel provides. So far this hasn't been necessary on the desktop or in smartphones.

 

[cube]

They are moving from 32nm to 14nm, and they will have full cores again, so I expect a good upgrade.

They will have SMT too, no?
[doublepost=1471534451][/doublepost]AMD has been able to change sockets and adopt new technology while providing an excellent compatibility path. There's no good reason to change this for FX people. Coolers for AM4 and AM3 are mechanically compatible.

 

[koyoot]

They will have SMT too, no?

Yes, Zen has SMT.

Zen will emulate everything what Intel optimized to not sacrifice anything from the performance or efficiency of the CPU.

 

[TechZeke]

Amd is making some bold claims in saying they can match broadwell-e. they have a lot of ground to make up and dont forget performance per watt is more important than top end performance. While I hope they can catch Intel, I am skeptical of their claims after Polaris, which is manufactured on the same process as zen, did not have great efficiency.

They also have to convince the average consumer they need more than the four cores Intel provides. So far this hasn't been necessary on the desktop or in smartphones.

If AMD wants to have a shot at laptop CPUs, then they will definitely need the performance per watt. However, for desktops, if they can provide near Intel performance at a noticeably cheaper price, they will have a winner if the performance per watt is simply good enough.

Intel has been pretty much stagnant in raw performance since Sandy Bridge, so I can see AMD catching up in raw power. Really, if AMD even gets within 10-15% of Intel, there will be huge shake up in the industry especially since Intel has said that development has slowed down and that we won't see much in the way of increased performance. That would mean a 2nd gen Zen CPU could actually surpass Intel in raw performance.

 

[cube]

And next, GlobalFoundries is jumping from 14nm to 7nm.

It seems 10nm is another troublesome node.

 

[koyoot]

IPC is on Broadwell E/EP levels. The problem for A0 revision is extremely low core clocks.

2.8 GHz base clock, with 3.2 GHz turbo, and 3050 MHz fully loaded all cores. It is 25% slower from 4 core CPU in a game that scales up to 4 cores, while having 30% lower core clock. So, bare in mind that with 30% and 4 cores the results might be better.

 

[cube]

Games scaling to only 4 cores is lazyness. One has been able to build inexpensive 32-core systems for many years now.

 

[koyoot]

Games scaling to only 4 cores is lazyness. One has been able to build inexpensive 32-core systems for many years now.

You cannot add more cores to game scaling because of one particular vendor which would not benefit from multithreading/multiengine.

It has more to do with politics(Nvidia Fermi DX12 compatibility forced by Nvidia from Microsoft, and the EOL'ing Fermi GPUs, for example), rather than laziness. DX12 is designed for multiple cores both on CPU and GPU side.

One more thing, that I forgot to mention. The demos were about Throughput of the CPUs on the same core clock levels. Not exactly the same thing as IPC.

 

[cube]

You cannot add more cores to game scaling because of one particular vendor which would not benefit from multithreading/multiengine.

It has more to do with politics(Nvidia Fermi DX12 compatibility forced by Nvidia from Microsoft, and the EOL'ing Fermi GPUs, for example), rather than laziness. DX12 is designed for multiple cores both on CPU and GPU side.

DX is not everything.

 

[koyoot]

DX is not everything.

In gaming? Yes, it is a template, because of the potential market available.
Of course it depends on vendor if it wants to do best possible game or...

Other question is that using more than 4 cores for that one GPU vendor - what affect it would have?

 

[cube]

In gaming? Yes, it is a template, because of the potential market available.

A smaller market than OpenGL.

 

[Mago]

this leaks puts the 95W 8C zen at 8,608 INR ~ 130$, seems AMD will price its zen cpu aggressively.
with this perfomance and eficiency could be possible to build acompute cluster with the same perfomance a Xeon Phy by about 1/3 or less the actual cost of a Xeon Phi.

 

[TechZeke]

this leaks puts the 95W 8C zen at 8,608 INR ~ 130$, seems AMD will price its zen cpu aggressively.
with this perfomance and eficiency could be possible to build acompute cluster with the same perfomance a Xeon Phy by about 1/3 or less the actual cost of a Xeon Phi.

As I said earlier, even if these Zens are 10-15% slower than a xeon it'll still be a game changer.

 

[Stacc]

this leaks puts the 95W 8C zen at 8,608 INR ~ 130$, seems AMD will price its zen cpu aggressively.
with this perfomance and eficiency could be possible to build acompute cluster with the same perfomance a Xeon Phy by about 1/3 or less the actual cost of a Xeon Phi.

Shipping manifests have very little to do with the final price to consumers. They are basically made up for insurance purposes. If zen competes with broadwell-e, expect it to be priced accordingly. Amd is not going to leave money on the table when it has been doing so poorly financially.