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boyarka

macrumors regular
Sep 6, 2021
210
216
Funny thing, those who like to comment on other’s intelligence tend to be the smooth brains

Oh yeah monopoly? Riiight

So again, re read what I wrote and comment better
Apple is not a market-dominating position-abusing (near!) monopoly. Right. Next thing you'll say is that Gordon Gekko was an enterprizing model investment banker.
 
Here's a novel idea: since 'Governments' do the contrary to protect the 'people' maybe large Tech companies create political parties. I'd vote 1 for  as corporate governance would do a world of good for the world. Imagine if Apple fronted a party representing their and everyone's interests - the power they could wield in parliaments to block irrational negative and expensive regulation.
 

iPadified

macrumors 68000
Apr 25, 2017
1,876
2,071
The American healthcare system is based on the fact that nothing in life is free. Contrary to the believe of many, tax payers do not have unlimited income. Taxes are taken from people*. It is not an endless source. There is nothing wrong with being successful, and, a capitalists system allows for more people to become successful by encouraging self employment, which itself is the greatest avenue to middle class.
In so called socialist states, we pay high tax for "free" healthcare and we know perfectly well it is not for free. EU and US uses about the same % of GNP in healthcare. In Nordic countries, the about 10% tax goes directly into healthcare system while as I understood, the about 10% goes first to insurance companies and then to the healthcare system. The money just takes a different route for the same service. The biggest drawback of the US system is that insurance is linked to employment and as the economic system relies of about 5% unemployment, there are some who always are not covered. Seems like a failure to me. Not that our system is perfect either but at least in Denmark, the government driven hospitals are so well trimmed that the private sector have difficulties to be competitive. It is also so trimmed that the quality sometimes goes down.
 

monstermash

macrumors 6502a
Apr 21, 2020
822
884
Good for you, I hope you defeat it, cancer is horrible!

But if you, like my son, were born early (preterm birth) by 2 months, what would your situation look like? Afaik, preemies aren't really liked by US insurance companies and some downright deny coverage.

We spent a month in NICU and had another 2 months of home care. During the care, we were both allowed to be off work with pay and only after those months did we start our 16 months of parental leave.
What did we pay out of pocket? Zero. Will he have problem getting heathcare in the future? Nope.

Both my parents had cancer, both were admitted to hospital for care the same day(!) of detection.

Having a preemie and 2 parents who passed away in cancer after weeks of hospital treatment you really start to appreciate free healthcare!

People always appreciate someone else paying their way. I don't dispute that in the slightest.
 
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monstermash

macrumors 6502a
Apr 21, 2020
822
884
In Nordic countries, the about 10% tax goes directly into healthcare system while as I understood, the about 10% goes first to insurance companies and then to the healthcare system=

Last year I paid roughly 2% of my income into health insurance and healthcare out of pocket costs - and that was a huge/major year for us.

If I had to pay anything close to 10% of my income for healthcare, I think I would lose it.
 

H2SO4

macrumors 603
Nov 4, 2008
5,660
6,939
It's what's called a Ghost Tax, in that government imposes stricter regulations on corporate bodies, who then impose the cost of compliance onto the customer through higher prices.

Then you add the VAT, and it's a nightmare.
But more expensive than where and for what?
 

webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,906
2,523
United States
We haven't been anything like Cuba or Soviet at any time. We never had 5-year plans or Kolkhozes or anything even close.
The "monopolies" that existed were inherited from the time when the King ruled the country. Railway? "Royal railroad" founded in 1856. Mail? "Royal Mail" founded in 1636. Telephone? "Royal Telegraph" founded 1853. And so on. They kept doing business as usual when the King was ousted, just that the King was no longer running things (he never did, it has always been civil servants in charge), but the state. They were the largest in their field, but certainly not alone.

We had private alternatives to both mail and railways long before the huge old government owned companies were sold out, but we still have government owned huge companies, but they have to compete on an open market.

I'll gladly acknowledge that the last 30 years have seen more sellouts than at least I would've wanted, but the "socialism" here was never about owning, but making sure people got a fair salary.

We never had a revolution where the people took over means of production. Instead, "the Swedish Model" established in the 1930s rely on unions and collective bargaining. 88% of salaries are decided through collective bargaining. Employer federations and labour representatives bargain at the national level mediated by the government. For example: we're not allowed to go on a strike unless it has been decided by a union. Rail workes went on an 3 day unsanctioned strike last week in Stockholm. They are now being charged in court for "unlawful strike" and will have to pay a hefty fine, individually.

Around 30% of the workforce work in the public sector (myself included), compared to around 18-19% in the US.
Public spending is at 56% of GDP in Sweden, compared to 37% for the US (and we have a puny military in comparison). Tax burden is at 44% of GDP, compared to 19% for the US.

To quote wikipedia:
"Some economists have referred to the Nordic economic model as a form of "cuddly capitalism", with low levels of inequality, generous welfare states, and reduced concentration of top incomes, contrasting it with the more "cut-throat capitalism" of the United States, which has high levels of inequality and a larger concentration of top incomes, among others social inequalities."

We have never been "hardcore socialists", but have not embraced capitalism fully either but instead tried to be inbetween. The main goal has always been about fighting social inequalities, the thing that almost ruined Sweden during the 1800s. We've had private alternatives for ages, its just that we've gotten more of them in recent time, but the goal of fighting social inequalities have not changed, money is being "taken from the rich and given to the poor".

I wasn't trying to suggest it was. My comment you originally responded to was:

"But didn't Sweden move a bit away from its previous "socialist" ways starting in the 1990s and has become more pro-capitalism in the last 30 years or so?"

And from what I’ve read, that appears to be the case. Sweden is not as "socialist" as they used to be and has become more pro-capitalism since the 1990s.
 

robbietop

Suspended
Jun 7, 2017
876
1,169
Good Ol' US of A

webkit

macrumors 68030
Jan 14, 2021
2,906
2,523
United States
Yes, VAT plus higher regulatory costs force EU companies to impose higher prices on consumers to recoup.

It can be some of both but regulations are a factor in all (developed) countries. It’s the high VAT that can really push prices up in Europe. The VAT in the UK is 20% and in some European countries it’s over 25%.
 

bollman

macrumors 6502a
Sep 25, 2001
679
1,458
Lund, Sweden
People always appreciate someone else paying their way. I don't dispute that in the slightest.
Wooooooowwwww that was something.

Last year, I made $50185 and paid $20756 income tax.

Looking at all available indexes that measure health, happiness, democracy, whatever, the Nordic countries play in a totally different league than the US.
 

bollman

macrumors 6502a
Sep 25, 2001
679
1,458
Lund, Sweden
I wasn't trying to suggest it was. My comment you originally responded to was:

"But didn't Sweden move a bit away from its previous "socialist" ways starting in the 1990s and has become more pro-capitalism in the last 30 years or so?"

And from what I’ve read, that appears to be the case. Sweden is not as "socialist" as they used to be and has become more pro-capitalism since the 1990s.
Sigh, I give up.
Think what you want to think, luckily, I live here.
 

Vref

Suspended
Feb 16, 2023
417
359
DHP
Wooooooowwwww that was something.

Last year, I made $50185 and paid $20756 income tax.

Looking at all available indexes that measure health, happiness, democracy, whatever, the Nordic countries play in a totally different league than the US.

The Nordic doesn’t make sense outside of the Nordic

You have much less diversity, thus less crime and conflict

You have fewer people, less resources needed, etc

Their model would fail right quick if implemented in a country like the US
 
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bollman

macrumors 6502a
Sep 25, 2001
679
1,458
Lund, Sweden
The Nordic doesn’t make sense outside of the Nordic

You have much less diversity, thus less crime and conflict

You have fewer people, less resources needed, etc

Their model would fail right quick if implemented in a country like the US
Less diversity? In Sweden's third city Malmö, there are 186 nationalities. 20% of people living in Sweden are not born here (around 13% in USA). Only 65% have both parents born in Sweden.
Fewer people yes, but also a lot smaller country.
 

robbietop

Suspended
Jun 7, 2017
876
1,169
Good Ol' US of A
Less diversity? In Sweden's third city Malmö, there are 186 nationalities. 20% of people living in Sweden are not born here (around 13% in USA). Only 65% have both parents born in Sweden.
Fewer people yes, but also a lot smaller country.
Yo, what does nationality in Sweden's third city have to do with a UK digital consumer bill?
 

robco74

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
509
944
The US pays far more per capita for healthcare with worse outcomes and lower life expectancy. The insurance companies add little to no value for the amount they skim. While there are stories about people in other countries waiting in line for elective procedures, that glosses over the fact that many Americans can't get in line to begin with. Also, in other countries, your place in line is based on medical need, not ability to pay. If you have a more urgent need, you go to the front of the line. Many Americans have to wait until it gets bad enough to warrant an emergency visit, which clogs up EDs and treatment is more costly. Even if you do get treated, if that treatment involves Rx, then we pay far more for pharmaceuticals than any other nation.

Other countries guarantee basic healthcare for all their citizens using a number of mechanisms including socialized medicine (UK), single payer (Canada) or even private insurance (Germany, Switzerland, Israel). Citizens of those countries keep coverage, even if they lose their jobs. You can keep coverage in the US, provided you can afford COBRA. This is what corporations want however. People afraid to quit their jobs.

Even with all this soshulism, Sweden manages to have several billionaires, and their citizens are happier than Americans. The EU has its share of issues, there are always tradeoffs. Citizens of the UK are finding this out. The US has plenty of taxes, but since they vary from state to state (county, city, etc), they aren't included in pricing, VAT is.

In any case, back to the original issue, having larger fines that actually cause some pain for corporations is a good thing. However regulations also have consequences. It means that companies may decide to delay adding products and features to a given market, or not enter a market at all. Then again, the "People's Republic of California" still has a rather strong economy, even given the "onerous" taxes, regulations, and real estate costs.
 
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gund1234

macrumors 6502a
Feb 21, 2022
740
673
if it was a search engine like Google, they could be forced to open up their data to rivals.
Why not ask to share algorithm used to rank pages with competitors.
this is worst than China.
 

gund1234

macrumors 6502a
Feb 21, 2022
740
673
How cute, the all American obsession with socialism. For some Americans even having healthcare free to the point of access is ‘socialist’. Go figure…
it is actually, government spending using tax revenue is socialism, we can argue weather it is better solution or not.
 

gund1234

macrumors 6502a
Feb 21, 2022
740
673
Brit here. Yes this is a dumb move by our Conservative government and I suspect it will backfire spectacularly, for the reasons mentioned by many here.

That said, the ruthless capitalism of the US is not a system I would ever want to see take hold over here. As the saying goes, Capitalism - left to its own devices - is like a runaway train; socialism is the gentle tapping of the brakes. That doesn't excuse every new regulation or every intervention of course - but as a general principle, I think it's a healthy one to live by. As often with matters of human happiness, the key is achieving balance.
sweet spot is in between Capitalism and Socialism, i would prefer closer to Capitalism.
USA is not pure capitalism either.
 

monstermash

macrumors 6502a
Apr 21, 2020
822
884
Wooooooowwwww that was something.

Last year, I made $50185 and paid $20756 income tax.

Looking at all available indexes that measure health, happiness, democracy, whatever, the Nordic countries play in a totally different league than the US.

I wish I paid that little.
 

AppliedMicro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2008
2,256
2,612
it is actually, government spending using tax revenue is socialism
Socialism is the idea of public ownership and regulation of natural resources and capital (means of production). That doesn’t mean that all public/government spending is - or should be called - „socialism“. Such an idea has very little basis or support in social sciences.
 
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Stormz

macrumors regular
Aug 21, 2007
118
152
sweet spot is in between Capitalism and Socialism, i would prefer closer to Capitalism.
USA is not pure capitalism either.
The USA may not be 100% capitalism but it's still considered extreme by many of us who look in at it from the outside. In fact it looks downright ruthless and I'm surprised you're not all living in a state of permanent fear at the possibility of losing everything through illness. (Your greater average income and quality of life compared with other countries would also add to that fear, I imagine - ie. having further to fall...)

Most other developed nations are essentially free market economies with a dose of socialism thrown in where the profit motive would be unhealthy or where the free market approach doesn't provide the dynamism and choice necessary for improvement. I'm all for a dynamic healthy free market. I run a business. But I also fully support consumer rights, financial regulation, trade restrictions and workers rights. That's not being socialist in a communist sense. That's just being compassionate and civilised.
 
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