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phillipduran

macrumors 65816
Apr 30, 2008
1,055
607
PRISM's been around since before Obama. Most of the NSA's authority has been authorized by republican congresses (and I admit democrats did ******** to stop it).

And Frankly, because of the tea party, I have no faith that we'll get a decent republican candidate any time soon. I was no fan of Obama, but compared to Romney, the choice was clear.

I'm looking for constitutional politicians. Doesn't matter what party they are a part of as long as they believe the constitution is the supreme law of the land and that the bill of rights is not open for negotiation or interpretation. We need less intrusion and a far less powerful government. Soon we will have a civilian "military" force. Just what is that going to be used on? The 19-25ish terrorists that have been in the US in the past decade? No, they will be used against us.
 

rmwebs

macrumors 68040
Apr 6, 2007
3,140
0
Does anyone seriously believe a word Apple, Google, MS, etc say about this? They were already gagged once, there's no way they would break ranks and publicly say something that wasn't first approved by the US Govt.

Take it with a pinch of salt, nothing any of these companies say with regards to dealings with governments can be proven to be factual. If it hadn't been for leaks we'd never know about any of this.

----------

Not necessarily true.

Russia might have a "if you tell we will kill your family " addendum.

;)

So may the US. It works both ways ;)
 

Anonymous Freak

macrumors 603
Dec 12, 2002
5,563
1,255
Cascadia
Thank you for making an informed post. Most of these replies are incredibly naive.

But... But.. FREEDOM! :D


A company as big as Apple has nothing to worry about, I get they want to follow the rules. But "National Security Letters" are not even constitutional. Any business or person in the United States (legally of course), has the right to free speech, under all circumstances, and the government can't say otherwise no matter what, the constitution is there to keep the government from doing things like that, and ultimately the constitution is the law, period.

Yet they have been tested in court, and have been found constitutional.

Your opinion doesn't matter to the NSA. Nor does mine. (I happen to agree with you on the point of freedom.) Nor even does opinion of the director of the Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics at Harvard University and the Professor of Law at Harvard Law School. Only the opinion of the US Federal Court system matters in this case.
 

ArtOfWarfare

macrumors G3
Nov 26, 2007
9,567
6,073
If you really didn't have freedom, you wouldn't have the opportunity to say you didn't have freedom. ;)

Nonsense. You could in fact have no freedom and still say you have no freedom, if your controller had you say you have no freedom.

Further, if you existed with only the freedom to say whether or not you had freedom, then you could still say you have no freedom and the vast majority of people would concur that the freedom to say you have no freedom is no freedom at all.
 

scoobydoo99

Cancelled
Mar 11, 2003
1,007
353
If you really didn't have freedom, you wouldn't have the opportunity to say you didn't have freedom. ;)

That day is coming.

But on another point....WHY would Apple provide data in response to 88% of government "requests"???

The answer should ALWAYS be "Show us a court order" "Don't have one? We have no information for you." The fact that they cooperate at all demonstrates that they DO have an interest in tracking us, spying on us, and sharing that data with the government for no valid legal reason other than to further the fascist state's goals.
 
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gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
If Apple, Google, and Yahoo together said "Screw You" and refused to release anything- what would be the repercussions?

Three CEOs in jail.

But on another point....WHY would Apple provide data in response to 88% of government "requests"???

The answer should ALWAYS be "Show us a court order" "Don't have one? We have no information for you." The fact that they cooperate at all demonstrates that they DO have an interest in tracking us, spying on us, and sharing that data with the government for no valid legal reason other than to further the fascist state's goals.


If you read their report, it seems that 88% of "requests" were court orders.
 

scoobydoo99

Cancelled
Mar 11, 2003
1,007
353
I'm looking for constitutional politicians. Doesn't matter what party they are a part of as long as they believe the constitution is the supreme law of the land and that the bill of rights is not open for negotiation or interpretation. We need less intrusion and a far less powerful government. Soon we will have a civilian "military" force. Just what is that going to be used on? The 19-25ish terrorists that have been in the US in the past decade? No, they will be used against us.

You are correst, but there is no such thing as a politician that will stand for the constitutional ideals you (and I) value. We are well beyond that. The politicians are bought and paid for by the banks and other corporations and will continue to do their bidding to prop up the dollar and expand American economic and military control over the world and its resources. Only one thing will change that. And that won't happen for probably 50-100 years.

----------

Three CEOs in jail.




If you read their report, it seems that 88% of "requests" were court orders.

Take a look at their Glossary, where they define Law Enforcement Requests as "requests issued by a government agency and/or a court..."
and further,
"Account-based law enforcement requests come in various forms such as subpoenas, court orders, and warrants."

Subpoenas can be issued by any law enforcement agency and carry little if any legal authority. Generally, a subpoena should be tossed in the trash, considering the legal "weight" it carries. So if they are responding to subpoenas or "requests issued by a government agency", as they admit they are, then they are going beyond what is required by law and unnecessarily disclosing information.

Also, remember they are prohibited from even discussing many requests and data sharing arrangements (including with NSA) under threat of legal action, incarceration, or worse. They definitely are NOT telling us everything they are doing, both because they don't want to and because they would be risking retribution from government agents.
 

Jazwire

macrumors 6502a
Jun 20, 2009
900
118
127.0.0.1
Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hancock, every man that died in Revolutionary War, rolling over in the graves.

Land of the Free... haha.

Bush and Obama have collectively destroyed it.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
I don't want to get into that topic that deeply - as it is such an embarassment for me...my home country of Germany won't give asylum to our post-modern hero Edward Snowden.

He could get asylum if he entered Germany, applied for asylum, and it was found that he is prosecuted by his country for example for political reasons. The first two haven't happened. The third is very unlikely to happen.

A much more relevant question is whether he would be extradited from Germany if requested by the US government (which they [the US government] surely would). If the German government wanted to, they could clearly argue that disclosing information about illegal conduct of the US government is not a crime according to German law, and therefore there would be no chance of extradition.

If there is no extradition, then he would have no need to get asylum. He can freely enter Germany, stay for 90 days as a tourist, and/or apply for a work permit and find employment.
 
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macduke

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,187
19,796
Well, nobody is truly free. Financial, biological, and legal restraints abound even in the most permissive situations. The question is: does my government allow me more self-determination than other governments? And I guess the answer is 0-1000.

This is one of the best comments I've seen on the entire Internet. Where may I send your cheesecake?
 

ellsworth

macrumors 6502a
Jun 13, 2007
923
237
There was a point when I was all up in arms about this and than I thought about it, the Government has been doing this for YEARS. It's only now that we're finding out about it.

That and also the fact that if you're not doing anything wrong/illegal/suspect, what do you have to worry about? (I know I'm going to get ripped for this one but what-ever, bring it on)
 

mrxak

macrumors 68000
I have to imagine some of the big time married executives at these major tech companies aren't too thrilled about government surveillance either. Sometimes men with a lot of money in their pocket and time on their hands can be drawn to locations and situations that they wouldn't want their wives to be privy to.;)

So I don't think we should all assume these companies are 100% "in" with the government on surveillance because I'm sure these executives would prefer not to be tracked as well.

There is something to be said for wealthy businessmen having the most to lose, when it comes to privacy concerns and blackmail, but this is an issue that affects us all for a host of reasons beyond blackmail. When it comes to political suppression, the wealthy generally have the means to be unaffected by it in any real way, just as long as their interests don't directly oppose the government's.

I'm glad to see a warrant canary from Apple, that's a very good sign. The unfortunate thing is they can't release any information about national security requests. We all know that tyranny always comes in the form of national security demands, so we should be much more worried about how many of those there are, than how many missing persons cases local governments are getting data for.

Apple's report, as Ars Technica points out, makes no mention of Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Amendments Act, which is being used as justification for the NSA's PRISM program. Its lack of mention is worth noting. It's also important to think seriously about human intelligence. Does anyone think it's beyond a spy agency to simply recruit employees of a company to work for them, or have one of their agents get a job at a company they wish to get physical server access at? Apple's executives and lawyers may be entirely ignorant of what their employees are doing with their servers, at the behest of domestic or foreign agencies, or even criminal organizations. Then there's the matter of Apple's internet connection. Governments around the world, or criminals, may have direct access to the networks Apple's hardware is running on, just outside of any Apple buildings.

The only thing you can truly trust, is that Apple is not in the business of collecting user data, as they are happy to point out. Google and others are in the business of selling users to advertisers in neat little data packages. They maintain extensive networked databases to do just that. Apple has no business motivation to do the same, which means Apple is less likely to keep data that a government agency or criminals would later gain access to. If you assume nothing is secure, which is a pretty good assumption, then a lack of something needing security to begin with eliminates a lot of concerns.

----------

There was a point when I was all up in arms about this and than I thought about it, the Government has been doing this for YEARS. It's only now that we're finding out about it.

That and also the fact that if you're not doing anything wrong/illegal/suspect, what do you have to worry about? (I know I'm going to get ripped for this one but what-ever, bring it on)

Why Privacy Matters Even if You Have "Nothing to Hide"

In case you don't bother clicking the link, here's a few quick retorts:
•My response is "So do you have curtains?" or "Can I see your credit-card bills for the last year?"
•So my response to the "If you have nothing to hide ... " argument is simply, "I don't need to justify my position. You need to justify yours. Come back with a warrant."
•I don't have anything to hide. But I don't have anything I feel like showing you, either.
•If you have nothing to hide, then you don't have a life.
•Show me yours and I'll show you mine.
•It's not about having anything to hide, it's about things not being anyone else's business.
•Bottom line, Joe Stalin would [have] loved it. Why should anyone have to say more?

But that's just the beginning. Trying to justify privacy as solely a matter of hiding wrongdoing misses the point. Privacy is much more than that. It's the basis of every freedom we have, right down our freedom to think and feel what we want. How many times have you expressed thoughts and feelings that you wouldn't want overheard by people other than who you're talking to? If you thought that everyone in the entire world was listening to you always, or at least had the ability, would you find there was a chilling effect on your freedom of expression?

Then there's the matter of government incompetence, and government insecurity. If privacy-invasive measures don't actually work to keep us safe, or people like Snowden can take off to Russia with a whole host of top secret information, this all seems a bit pointless and dangerous. If PRISM didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombings, how do we justify the cost of the hardware and energy use, especially in a time of large budget deficits? If the government can't keep its most secret secrets secret, why should we trust the government to hold onto vast databases with our personal information on it? If not somebody like Snowden, or a foreign agent, it'll be criminal hackers who want to steal your identity or credit cards. The more data the government collects, the bigger a target it becomes, and the more damage can be done when it's inevitably stolen or leaked.
 
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MacDav

macrumors 65816
Mar 24, 2004
1,031
0
That's the joy of the secret subpoenas that are "National Security Letters". They can't even acknowledge individual ones, so they have to generalize. It would have been nice if they had at least rounded to the "hundreds", and called out '0' explicitely. (So instead of "0-1000", it would be either "0", or "1-100", or "101-200", etc.)

Do you really think any of the columns would have zero's in them? ;)
 

MacDav

macrumors 65816
Mar 24, 2004
1,031
0
That day is coming.

But on another point....WHY would Apple provide data in response to 88% of government "requests"???

The answer should ALWAYS be "Show us a court order" "Don't have one? We have no information for you." The fact that they cooperate at all demonstrates that they DO have an interest in tracking us, spying on us, and sharing that data with the government for no valid legal reason other than to further the fascist state's goals.

Contrary to your belief in fascist conspiracy theories, it is in Apple best financial interests not to track or give out information on their customers. Apple knows this and is trying to minimize the damage to their image that all the "Spying B/S" inflicts. To suggest that they are part of some kind of fascist conspiracy is just Loony Tunes. ;)
 

MacDav

macrumors 65816
Mar 24, 2004
1,031
0
I'm sure he doesn't, which is why he thinks it'd be more of an honest report if the ranges at least started higher than 0.

I'll give you that...However I think everyone already knows their are no zero's. Also, we don't really know what the NSA requirements on report structure are. We really don't know anything except some numbers on a page. Taking out the zero's adds nothing to the table except that Apple possibly has a little more integrity. That is of course if they are actually allowed by the NSA to compile the report without zero's. ;)
 

goobot

macrumors 604
Jun 26, 2009
6,509
4,431
long island NY
Well, nobody is truly free. Financial, biological, and legal restraints abound even in the most permissive situations. The question is: does my government allow me more self-determination than other governments? And I guess the answer is 0-1000.
I love this comment.
 

kingtj

macrumors 68030
Oct 23, 2003
2,606
749
Brunswick, MD
re: freedom

It's a funny thing about freedom.... It's possible to engineer situations where people believe they have freedoms, yet they're really just operating in a fishbowl, watched to see if they go outside "acceptable parameters" or not.


If you really didn't have freedom, you wouldn't have the opportunity to say you didn't have freedom. ;)
 

mrxak

macrumors 68000
I'll give you that...However I think everyone already knows their are no zero's. Also, we don't really know what the NSA requirements on report structure are. We really don't know anything except some numbers on a page. Taking out the zero's adds nothing to the table except that Apple possibly has a little more integrity. That is of course if they are actually allowed by the NSA to compile the report without zero's. ;)

Well, and that's the point. Apple isn't allowed to have integrity by reporting the actual numbers.
 

ElectronGuru

macrumors 68000
Sep 5, 2013
1,656
489
Oregon, USA
There was a point when I was all up in arms about this and than I thought about it, the Government has been doing this for YEARS. It's only now that we're finding out about it.

I'm likewise surprised at all the surprise. After 9/11, we threw much of our privacy out the window, in the name of security. A level of security we demand and both parties are still working to deliver:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)#History

...the Terrorist Surveillance Program, was implemented in the wake of the September 11 attacks under the George W. Bush Administration but was widely criticized and challenged as illegal, because it did not include warrants obtained from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.[28][29][30][31] PRISM was authorized by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.[17] PRISM was enabled under President Bush by the Protect America Act of 2007 and by the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, which immunizes private companies from legal action when they cooperate with U.S. government agencies in intelligence collection. In 2012 the act was renewed by Congress under President Obama for an additional five years, through December 2017.[4][32][33] According to The Register, the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 "specifically authorizes intelligence agencies to monitor the phone, email, and other communications of U.S. citizens for up to a week without obtaining a warrant" when one of the parties is outside the U.S.[32])
 
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FloatingBones

macrumors 65816
Jul 19, 2006
1,486
745
See the uproar over Lavabit - it took them over two months of extreme pressure by their lawyers to get permission to acknowledge that they had gotten one of these requests. And most likely, the only reason they got permission to publish was because they chose to shut down their company rather than comply with the request. That shut down (which, at the time, they could not comment why they had shut down,) got a lot of press. Everyone assumed it was because of a "secret subpoena", so it did no harm to acknowledge it. (In the end, even though they shut down their company, they still had to comply with the request, despite many efforts to avoid it.)

Hear, hear. I highly recommend the interview that TWiT did with Ladar. Video podcast in iTunes here ; audio podcast in iTunes here. Remarkable story. Remarkable guy.
 
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Anonymous Freak

macrumors 603
Dec 12, 2002
5,563
1,255
Cascadia
The answer should ALWAYS be "Show us a court order"

Most of the big tech companies have public statements saying just that - they only provide information when ORDERED to by a court with jurisdiction. And even then, they challenge them by default when possible, requiring not just the basic "here's a subpoena", but a follow up "no, we really mean it, a judge said so and everything." I haven't seen any such statements from Apple, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.
 

mw360

macrumors 68020
Aug 15, 2010
2,045
2,423
Most of the big tech companies have public statements saying just that - they only provide information when ORDERED to by a court with jurisdiction. And even then, they challenge them by default when possible, requiring not just the basic "here's a subpoena", but a follow up "no, we really mean it, a judge said so and everything." I haven't seen any such statements from Apple, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

That statement from Apple is in the PDF linked in the first line of the article, and quoted here in the comments (page 2).
 
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yjchua95

macrumors 604
Apr 23, 2011
6,725
233
GVA, KUL, MEL (current), ZQN
I'm surprised that the Malaysian government didn't ask Apple for data, considering that the government is hell-bent on stifling democracy and opposition. Or anything that threatens the ruling party.
 
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