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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,304
19,289
You don't do software development do you. Firmware is especially fragile because if it doesn't work, you could have all your customers lined out the front of your store with bricked Airports.

It would be quite silly to release a firmware that did not work, would it now? I still don't understand while a trivial minor version bump on a stable and well-tested API should result in a broken firmware.

Unless you totally screw up the build or use a heavily modified source tree.
 
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nzalog

macrumors 6502
Jul 25, 2012
274
2
Let me let you answer that. Does the AirPort Express use 802.11ac? No. Do you even read the article?

I did read the article and have no idea what heartbleed and 802.11ac have to do with one another. Heartbleed is related to openssl and I don't think fast or slower wireless would change any of that. Anyways thanks for the uneducated response...
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,304
19,289
It's not really a big problem as you're making it seem. This exploit explicitly requires the attacker to be in your network. If the attacker is already in your network, you have much bigger problems than this exploit.

What about people using the guest network feature, e.g. small shop owners? Or ones that use the router to share the connection between different parties in a house? I mean, the text is written a bit unclear and I am not sure what they mean exactly by 'privileged network position', but if I understand the whole thing correctly, it means that the attacker can execute man in the middle attacks on any other participants in the network. That still sounds quite serious to me.
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,459
Usually, fixing a bug of this kind does not change the API behaviour at all (except denying the particular type of attack). To make sure of this, OpenSSL is accompanied by a suite of unit tests which make sure that the framework is behaving as desired.

So while what you are saying is certainly a possibility, its more an academic one. The API is well defined and well understood, and also thoroughly tested after the fix. Sure, it is possible that the fix has introduced another bug, but if the whole world has not found it after testing the new version for quite some time, I doubt that Apple will ;)
The whole world wasn't looking for issues of the particular code Apple compiled against the updated package, they are only looking at the package and perhaps how it might apply to some more widespread things out there, not specific proprietary code or even necessarily all kinds of specific projects. Someone needs to do it for the specific ones--as in the people who are working on them. The whole thing "it shouldn't" or "usually" or whatnot, is exactly where the QA bread and butter is given how often none of that holds up despite it sounding so rational.
 

sbailey4

macrumors 601
Dec 5, 2011
4,512
3,153
USA
Step 1, Find the bug.
Step 2, Fix the bug.
Step 3, Test the fix.
Step 4, Test the fix.
Step 5, Test the fix.
Step 6, Test the fix.
Step 7, Release the fix.

Step 8 Release another fix
Step 9 And release one more fix.....
Step 10 Release the final fix (before the next fix)

Couldn't resist that one :D
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,304
19,289
The whole world wasn't looking for issues of the particular code Apple compiled against the updated package, they are only looking at the package and perhaps how it might apply to some more widespread things out there, not specific proprietary code or even necessarily all kinds of specific projects.

Sorry, but I can't really make any sense out of it. Are you even aware what the heartbleed bug is and how it works? Because what you say here sounds as if you are suggesting that Apple was actually USING the bug in some obscure way. How does adding a simple buffer length check (which changes absolutely nothing in how the API behaves except fixing the vulnerability) break an application which uses the function?
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,459
Sorry, but I can't really make any sense out of it. Are you even aware what the heartbleed bug is and how it works? Because what you say here sounds as if you are suggesting that Apple was actually USING the bug in some obscure way. How does adding a simple buffer length check (which changes absolutely nothing in how the API behaves except fixing the vulnerability) break an application which uses the function?
You do understand that even a single character change in code can run into some issue with something, right? I mean look at this bug and what cased it, or look at the SSL bug that iOS and OS X had just recently. Yes, the bug isn't in Apple's code, nor is Apple's code directly using the bug somehow, but a new build had to be made to address it even with just a tiny small change, that build was tested and confirmed to be fine, but if you have another project that compiles against it, you still want to test it just to make sure that on some off chance something wasn't affected.

That's not even accounting for any other potential changes that Apple might have already had in the pipe for the firmware updates and was perhaps close to releasing and it only made sense to finish certifying all of those along with this and release it all together, which might have taken the bit of extra time.

Now, that's all not to say that it would be better to release it earlier, but it is to say that there's more that would go into it than some simple unit testing or light level limited verification.
 

snprintf

macrumors member
Apr 20, 2014
69
0
My friend, a non-criminal hacker, said that the OpenSSL code is garbage. I don't know if he's correct, but the Heartbleed bug sounded really dumb in the first place.

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No idea. I'd say it is whatever coding is associated with the "AC" part of the airports. My guess is something with the dual connections. Id have to look into it though

No. It's the SSL bug, which has nothing to do with AC vs N.

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You don't seem to realise it, but the bug has already been found (its in the OpenSSL library used by 2/3 of servers out there) and fixed on 7. of April by the OpenSSL team. Fixing it in the router involves downloading the patched source code and recompiling the router firmware - its literally takes five minutes. There is nothing to test, because it has been tested ad nauseum by thousands of people worldwide.

Too bad there's no sudo apt-get install on AirPort base stations so we wouldn't even need an update for this. Oh yeah, and also the Mac. The apt-get command is literally the only reason I ever use Linux on my PC.
 

MikhailT

macrumors 601
Nov 12, 2007
4,582
1,325
I did read the article and have no idea what heartbleed and 802.11ac have to do with one another. Heartbleed is related to openssl and I don't think fast or slower wireless would change any of that. Anyways thanks for the uneducated response...

Heartbleed only affects specific versions of OpenSSL, not any random version of OpenSSL. OS X and iOS uses OpenSSL as well but they're not affected because they're using an older version released before this bug was added to the code.
 

2984839

Cancelled
Apr 19, 2014
2,114
2,240
My friend, a non-criminal hacker, said that the OpenSSL code is garbage. I don't know if he's correct, but the Heartbleed bug sounded really dumb in the first place.

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No. It's the SSL bug, which has nothing to do with AC vs N.

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Too bad there's no sudo apt-get install on AirPort base stations so we wouldn't even need an update for this. Oh yeah, and also the Mac. The apt-get command is literally the only reason I ever use Linux on my PC.

OpenSSL's code is not very good. It's poorly documented, poorly commented, and does some dumb things. The OpenBSD team has spent the last week steadily ripping out all the obsolete code that was built up but never removed. They got 90,000 lines of C removed in a week. Lots of VMS support, Win32 support, and some other stuff that is not really needed was taken out, some other code was fixed, and the whole thing is generally much cleaner. They've created a fork called LibreSSL that is the cleaned out version.
 

csixty4

macrumors regular
Apr 8, 2010
204
1
Somerville, MA
No. It's the SSL bug, which has nothing to do with AC vs N.

There's a good chance the firmware for 802.11n routers was never updated to use OpenSSL 1.0.1, which is where the "Heartbleed" bug was introduced. OpenSSL 0.98 and 1.0.0 were actively maintained in separate branches and had security patches back-ported. As long as the older routers didn't need the new features introduced in 1.0.1, it would be silly to upgrade the firmware just to upgrade.
 

nzalog

macrumors 6502
Jul 25, 2012
274
2
Heartbleed only affects specific versions of OpenSSL, not any random version of OpenSSL. OS X and iOS uses OpenSSL as well but they're not affected because they're using an older version released before this bug was added to the code.

Ya, wasn't sure how similar the code on the two was. Thanks though, appreciate the info.
 

KattDaDon

macrumors 6502
Jul 6, 2011
469
0
I wonder do I have to change my base station password and wireless password now or nah?
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,304
19,289
You do understand that even a single character change in code can run into some issue with something, right? I mean look at this bug and what cased it, or look at the SSL bug that iOS and OS X had just recently. Yes, the bug isn't in Apple's code, nor is Apple's code directly using the bug somehow, but a new build had to be made to address it even with just a tiny small change, that build was tested and confirmed to be fine, but if you have another project that compiles against it, you still want to test it just to make sure that on some off chance something wasn't affected.

This is the heartbleed fix. Please tell me WHAT could go wrong with it. The code is quite straightforward

http://git.openssl.org/gitweb/?p=openssl.git;a=commitdiff;h=96db902

Funnily enough, I kind of agree with your reasoning more in regards to the Apple SSL bug. That bug is very trivial but it actually brings a functional change (a certain security check being ignored). So a code originally created and tested agains the tree with this bug could have been potentially broken when the bug is fixed (even though its extremely unlikely) — what is actually most scary in that story that Apple apparently didn't have a unit test for that case or that the compiler didn't catch and warn about unreachable code (or that the programmer didn't check the warning). However, all heart bleed does is add an additional buffer overflow check. This change is so trivial that I simply can't see any issues with production code arising out of it, unless that production code would voluntarily cause buffer overflows.

Basically, while you are right theoretically, people update their code again such trivial fixes all the time without any issues.

I do agree that OpenSSL code is kind of... messy :D

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Too bad there's no sudo apt-get install on AirPort base stations so we wouldn't even need an update for this. Oh yeah, and also the Mac. The apt-get command is literally the only reason I ever use Linux on my PC.

There is a bunch of package managers for OS X such as Homebrew and MacPorts. Not to mention Apple's own softwareupdate tool and App Store.

That said, I already had a case where apt-get upgrade killed my installation ;)
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,459
This is the heartbleed fix. Please tell me WHAT could go wrong with it. The code is quite straightforward

http://git.openssl.org/gitweb/?p=openssl.git;a=commitdiff;h=96db902

Funnily enough, I kind of agree with your reasoning more in regards to the Apple SSL bug. That bug is very trivial but it actually brings a functional change (a certain security check being ignored). So a code originally created and tested agains the tree with this bug could have been potentially broken when the bug is fixed (even though its extremely unlikely) — what is actually most scary in that story that Apple apparently didn't have a unit test for that case or that the compiler didn't catch and warn about unreachable code (or that the programmer didn't check the warning). However, all heart bleed does is add an additional buffer overflow check. This change is so trivial that I simply can't see any issues with production code arising out of it, unless that production code would voluntarily cause buffer overflows.

Basically, while you are right theoretically, people update their code again such trivial fixes all the time without any issues.

I do agree that OpenSSL code is kind of... messy :D

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There is a bunch of package managers for OS X such as Homebrew and MacPorts. Not to mention Apple's own softwareupdate tool and App Store.

That said, I already had a case where apt-get upgrade killed my installation ;)
All completely poor excuses to not do a more robust validation and run through additional testing as far as a new build of your own product, at least for any organization that has at least a semi-decent QA way of thinking.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,304
19,289
All completely poor excuses to not do a more robust validation and run through additional testing as far as a new build of your own product, at least for any organization that has at least a semi-decent QA way of thinking.

Again, in this case I consider your stance to be to be academically correct, but unfortunately, not in the least practice-oriented. I guess we will have agree to disagree then.
 

nebo1ss

macrumors 68030
Jun 2, 2010
2,903
1,695
I did read the article and have no idea what heartbleed and 802.11ac have to do with one another. Heartbleed is related to openssl and I don't think fast or slower wireless would change any of that. Anyways thanks for the uneducated response...

Totally agree. We did not know that this model was affected until the fix was released. Suspect, we wont know if the older model is affected until the fix is released. As for those saying that the affected version of OpenSSL was not around when the older models were released. The OpenSSL version with the problem has been around for two years.
 

2457282

Suspended
Dec 6, 2012
3,327
3,015
I feel left out...

I spent yesterday updating my iOS devices (3 of them), my OSX devices (2 of them), downloading iworks updates, my ATVs (2 of them), joining the beta program and downloading them, and finally downloading and updating my wifes MS-office (yuk!). So my time capsule and airport express are not feeling any love today since they did not get to join the party last night. :(
 

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,459
Again, in this case I consider your stance to be to be academically correct, but unfortunately, not in the least practice-oriented. I guess we will have agree to disagree then.
Unfortunately it's the lack of actually practicing the theory that then at least sometimes ends up firing back, and even sometimes is not a good thing for any company/organization out there (even if a lot of them still end up living in that reality). But, yeah, we can certainly agree to disagree on this.
 

unplugme71

macrumors 68030
May 20, 2011
2,827
754
Earth
You don't do software development do you. Firmware is especially fragile because if it doesn't work, you could have all your customers lined out the front of your store with bricked Airports.

exactly why they took their time!

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They need to update the title to 802.11ac models. I was expecting to update my previous gen airport.

On that note.. has Apple given the ability to add airplanes and terminals to AirPort yet?
 

Nightarchaon

macrumors 65816
Sep 1, 2010
1,393
30
Step 1, Find the bug.
Step 2, Fix the bug.
Step 3, Test the fix.
Step 4, Test the fix.
Step 5, Test the fix.
Step 6, Test the fix.
Step 7, Release the fix.

Where i work its,

Step 1, Client Finds the bug.
Step 2, We deny there is a bug and blame it on the clients enviroment.
Step 3, We eventually fix the bug and patch the live directly.
Step 4, Clients scream because the fix breaks at least 5 other critical components in the live.
Step 5, we roll back to pre-fix
Step 6, See step 1
 
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