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Apple Remains Silent About Plans to Detect Known CSAM Stored in iCloud Photos
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Is your thinking that if the the federal government passed a bill requiring tech firms to scan for a long list of content on their networks and services, Apple would be able to refuse to comply and win a lawsuit against the federal government?
When the “Lawful Access to Encrypted Data Act" was introduced in the Senate by Lindsey Graham, Tom Cotton and Marsha Blackburn, for example, I don’t remember any backlash about such a bill would be unconstitutional.
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First, I said “I think”. Read carefully before replying in that tone. I remember having read things about the European Comission wanting to regulate End to End Encryption and messaging apps. Because I wasn’t sure about what I read, because -as I said on that message you quoted- I didn’t have the source at hand, and because my memory isn’t the best, I said, in a preemptive way “I think”. But I guess that wasn’t enough to warrant me a reasonable, polite and kind response.
A quick search on DuckDuckGo shows me this article, but this is from 2020:
The EU's Legislative E2E Encryption Drive and Your Privacy
The Council of Europe has drafted a resolution to regulate E2EE. Are we about to lose privacy in encrypted messaging apps?
But searching for more recent news, I’ve found this thread on Resetera, gathering different articles:
Ars Technica - “War upon end-to-end encryption”: EU wants Big Tech to scan private messages
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/05/war-upon-end-to-end-encryption-eu-wants-big-tech-to-scan-private-messages/
And even a blog with the reputation of Ars Technica wrote this article:
“War upon end-to-end encryption”: EU wants Big Tech to scan private messages
Services may have to scan encrypted messages for child abuse images and grooming.
And yeah, I know the EU, I am a citizen of Europe myself.
Just a friendly reminder, I wasn’t making any statement of having the absolute truth, I don’t like to argue with blacks or whites or false dichotomies. I am open to admit that I may be wrong, and there’s nothing wrong with that, there’s no need of confrontation.
Most of the problems of the world aren’t black or white, it rather is a big grey area, and the EU (or any other government or political group) isn’t either good or evil. I like to live in Europe, but not everything is perfect, not even close. Europe has been a heaven for privacy and rights for many years, and I know that. But I also read the newspapers, and I think -again, I think- that there might be some reasons to be concerned from what I read.
If anyone wants to reply, not to me, but to the sources I’ve shared (as I’m just an observer, I just point out what I see), I only ask one thing: respect. Otherwise it will be impossible to have a civil discussion, and I probably won’t reply.
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Shockingly dangerous attitude. Private corporations have no business acting as law enforcement proxies.
Maybe next year with the next version of iOS.... Never know. Apple could introduce it anytime.
The year is 2025. The Stasi have just kicked down your door with assault weapons drawn, ready to take your ass down to your region's concentration camp because you have memes making fun of the state and whichever crooked politician happens to be in power stored on your iPhone which got uploaded to iCloud and offended a government agent.
20 years ago, even 10 years ago, this would have been a joke, but is frighteningly close to reality today.
20 years ago, even 10 years ago, this would have been a joke, but is frighteningly close to reality today.
How about a toogle on / off switch and those that are happy to waive their right to privacy and open up their back door, allow anything to come inside do so by selecting, 'On'?
Currently there is no software implemented in Photos able to do what CSAM was planned to provide. AFAIK Photos does some machine-learning analysis but it does not leave the device. Furthermore, CSAM is not based on machine learning.
Why do you think it can detect e.g. "child sexual abuse material" but not "terrorist propaganda", or whatever type of content an authority wants to find out?
The only limitation is that the authority needs to already know what to look for, but otherwise the system can find anything they want: it being limited to "child sexual abuse material" is a matter of policy, not a technical limitation of the system.
It actually can, to some extent, as explained in the original Technical Summary:
The example image in the document shows how an image in colors and a copy in black-and-white would also lead to the same hash, so I guess the "crop" and "resize" mentioned above are not an exhaustive list of transformations which can lead to the same hash.
Apple won't anounce scanning for CSAM, it will do so under the guise scanning for their rejuvenated big push into advertising and it just so happens it will useful for CSAM too.
Based on my time working for Apple I have learned to not trust what they say all the time. They were not transparent with employees and often did things they claimed they were not. That perspective makes me take anything they say with a large grain of salt.
That’s a completely different point than the one I replied to. You can’t just keep moving the goalposts every time someone points out your mistakes.
Maybe most people (even myself) didn’t realize that apple defaults to iCloud upload. I turned that off real quick.
So, if there’s an “amber alert” and, via their security cameras, a retail business finds the vehicle in their parking lot, they should NOT report that to law enforcement?
The switch would actually be more like
“encrypt my entire image library so that Apple can’t report on anything other than matched CSAM hashes to the government” =On
or
“don’t encrypt my entire image library so that Apple will be compelled to provide any and all images requested by the government”. =Off
Well, they won’t “announce” it because they’re already doing it. All image providers are doing it. If they announce that “iCloud Photos are now encrypted such that even Apple doesn’t have the key”, then they will have enabled on-device scanning for users that use iCloud photos. There’s no other way the government would allow them to encrypt all users’ photos.
But, you trust what they say “some” of the time? What do criteria do you use to trust or not trust Apple? If they say something about the price of an iPhone, trust? If they say something about security, not trust?
“The whole reason for end to end encryption is to keep the middle man transmitting the data from seeing it.”
This is not moving the goalposts, this is helping you to realize that end to end encryption is NOT something people in all countries have access to. Chinese encryption policy, specifically, is shaped by two competing interests, political control and commercial development. Beijing requires commercial companies maintain backdoors or key escrows to preserve government access to data for public security and intelligence gathering, which has discouraged the widespread adoption of commercial encryption. They also prioritize the development of “secure and controllable” encryption.
And, considering that Apple has never said that iCloud Photos are end-to-end encrypted, that wouldn’t factor into this anyway! You moved the goalposts of iCloud Photos being end-to-end encrypted (and they’re not), I’m just moving them back to where they were to start with.
If you think the position from a year ago vs today has changed, just say so. Having this "example" and trying to make in "my" opinion is nonsense. Taking out of context.
It was the position of Apple to interject themselves to both scan for illegal material bypassing the need for regulation or warrant and also interject themselves into the eyes on verification process instead of an agency like NCMEC or ICMEC.
This has not been brought forth in a court of law according to a couple of law colleges, the ACLU, and a couple of lawyers who weighed in.
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Rather make it an app that can be installed if a person so desires.
No, because I don’t spend any time creating memes making fun of the state or crooked politicians.
And, if I were to find myself in an authoritarian regime… well, I still wouldn’t.
No, because I don’t spend any time creating memes making fun of the state or crooked politicians.
Editorial cartoons.
Nope, just convinced that one more step in that direction, no matter how stupid it is, is wrong.
Anything that involves more than just them and they go out of their way to provide details on I tend to question. This feature smells funny....just as funny as some of the internal things that didn't smell right and were not. Apple is not your friend, nor are they concerned about your best interests. They care about themselves and their money before anything else. If they are pushing this its not because they care about the issue. They either are being forced to do in a scenario like the government telling them they are going to push for backdoor legislation and this was a compromise, or some other reason that benefits them or they are being forced to do. This benefits them somehow.
I know you will argue against this. But the reality is that Apple is seen differently when you go from being it's biggest fan to an employee and find out how much they really don't give a crap about us or doing the right thing. It's not the company you all hope it is. I learned you never should work for your heros.
I don’t do those either. And, under a future authoritarian regime… I still wouldn’t.Editorial cartoons.
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