Major company EV bashing and general Tesla boosting seems to be the order of the day right now.
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Apple Spent More Than $10 Billion on Apple Car Before Canceling Project
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Major company EV bashing and general Tesla boosting seems to be the order of the day right now.
Since you’re literally the one doing the bashing and boosting your comment is kind of ironic, don’t you think?
Hey I’m just discussing what these companies are doing and not doing. Don’t blame the messenger for the failures of some and the success of others.
Not till they integrate with Tesla charging network in 2025, lucid can’t use Tesla charging network yet. Tesla has the best charging network in the US. Lucid has limited charging stations for my routes. Anyways, I am not gonna get an EV anytime soon. Cyber truck is probably the only EV I was remotely interested.
It’s not only Green field companies, but traditional auto makers aren’t faring any better. Toyota CEO claiming paying fine with tax credits are better than going full EV may have seen crazy but Mercedes, Volvo, and others have come to similar conclusion after pumping in Billions.
BYD, the Chinese EV darling saw 40% YOY decline in Feb 2024 compared to Feb 2023. Their 2024 forecast is lot gloomier than Tesla. It’s gonna be an industry wide struggle in next year or even more.
Yeah, I agree. The market just isn't all that big yet and Tesla's cornered the early adopters for the time being.
Lucid, Tesla, and Rivian don't have other options though, they need to push through or die. The established players can put the idea on a shelf and focus on their existing business until market conditions improve. Apple apparently did the same-- decided they were better off focusing on existing products. I think that's why the green field companies look more desperate-- they don't have any other existing products. Despite Musk's "digging our own grave" rhetoric, I suspect Tesla can survive the failure of CT because they also have ongoing sources of revenue. Not sure they can afford two misses in a row though.
I hope Lucid pulls through, they look like a reasonable Tesla alternative. How's Polestar doing? I haven't thought about them for a while... For whatever reason I find them less compelling-- maybe it's the top to bottom Google integration.
No, it doesn’t. Workout detection is based on your heart rate, which can remain elevated for 20+ minutes post workout. So it depends on the cardiovascular shape you’re in.
I’m a competitive body builder with good cardio. It’s difficult to raise my heart rate from simply walking, so I would never get the detection that others I hang out with get when we walk around the city.
Are the Tesla chargers NACS chargers? Not sure how long for Tesla to get their whole network to speak NACS (Specifically CCS) since their older cars don't.
Again, this is not about it being "your" figure. It's about YOU using the figure to reach YOUR "not a failure" conclusion. A conclusion that is flawed for various reasons I've already mentioned so there’s no point in continuing this conversation.
yes and no. The plug is, but the protocol is CCS, which Tesla supports in their newer cars, but in the older cars (pre-2021) it still uses CANBus. Which CCS doesn't support.
100%. It’s my opinion the cyber truck is not a failure. It seems we may have different definitions of what a failure is or isn’t.
What was the Red Herring? Couldn’t see it.
Please don’t be upset - this is the internet.
So you are proving my point. That Apple should improve their products and, in this case, the auto-detection should be based on other factors - GPS, speed, accelerometer, knowing your routine.
Also: spell check sucks
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Polestar is begging for money after Volvo pulled the plug on funding them. They have raised some money but bleeding much faster than they are raising money. Tesla isn’t going anywhere, and they are selling every Cyber truck they can make. Most manufactures would love to sell everything they make and not sit on the lots. Advantage for Tesla and BYD is cutting prices, they can sustain while guys like Ford, GM, Rivian, Lucid can’t go on for long. The market is much smaller than hype, Tesla took big chunk outside china, they don’t need large market share as long as they take most of EV profits.
Tesla's not going anywhere, I agree. They'll weather this storm, and if they continue to stumble they'll get acquired before they go out of business.
I've heard the "selling every one they make" argument elsewhere in the thread too, and I'm not sure that's as compelling an argument as people think. If you can't make them, it's easy to sell the few you can. They are selling fewer than Ford has sold electric F-150s.
Until they can actually start producing them in volume, we don't know what the actual demand is.
I'm not sure why you'd think that's true. Again, Rivian and Lucid are in a different category than the other four but if we know Ford and GM are more profitable than Tesla then why would you think Tesla can outlast them in a price war? GM and Fords shareholder basically assume continued dividends and no growth right now, Tesla's investors have higher hopes.
Less today than yesterday, but still...
If there are profits to be taken. Tesla cut deep into their profits to try and stave off the new entrants. If Ford and GM took that same approach, and just absorbed the cost of the price war, they would still be making money on their internal combustion vehicles while Tesla lacks that diversification.
That’s not a good way to base a workout on. Also, simple fix: press “start workout.” You forgetting is user error. Do you get upset at Kenmore when you forget to turn on the stove? 🤣
The real issue is that you’re not actually doing any meaningful exercise. Get to the gym.
Tesla cut Prices in china
Traditional Auto makers have no choice but cut back, though it’s not a great scenario either. Ford and GM profit margin has been around 5-7% with out EV. Ford lost money, mostly due to EV in Dec 2023, with margin of -1.14%. Ford cut production of lightening by 50% in December to lower the losses it was taking. GM made 2 Billion on 43 B revenue in Q4 2023. Tesla made 4.0 B on 25 B revenue during same period.
RIP ford lightening for now, they halted 2024 shipments after issues. Ford already reported more than 2300 workers would be impacted and some of them will be moved to traditional SUVs like bronco and others will be let go.
Ford sold around 25 K lightening Trucks in 2023, with no date of resuming production in 2024. Tesla is expected to ramp up to 250k cyber truck per year by 2025. The approach has been to slowly ramp up to avoid quality issues and halt production. Many pessimistic projections are about 100 K units in 2024. That is less than 2000 units per week.
Regarding price war, it’s only getting started in China and other markets. Tesla dropped model 3 prices from 260 K Yuan to 229K. The profit margins reported at 260 K was 25%. Even with a bigger cut, it has long way to break even or loss. Tesla reported a 19% slow down in Feb 2024 in china, the BYD down by 37-40% in Feb 2024. I didn’t expect Tesla to be so aggressive, but given their 25% margin before price cuts, they can go down lot more than others.
How it started..
How it’s going.
Apple was smart to step back, they don’t need to lose money nor need to make cars.
Traditional Auto makers have no choice but cut back, though it’s not a great scenario either. Ford and GM profit margin has been around 5-7% with out EV. Ford lost money, mostly due to EV in Dec 2023, with margin of -1.14%. Ford cut production of lightening by 50% in December to lower the losses it was taking. GM made 2 Billion on 43 B revenue in Q4 2023. Tesla made 4.0 B on 25 B revenue during same period.
RIP ford lightening for now, they halted 2024 shipments after issues. Ford already reported more than 2300 workers would be impacted and some of them will be moved to traditional SUVs like bronco and others will be let go.
Ford sold around 25 K lightening Trucks in 2023, with no date of resuming production in 2024. Tesla is expected to ramp up to 250k cyber truck per year by 2025. The approach has been to slowly ramp up to avoid quality issues and halt production. Many pessimistic projections are about 100 K units in 2024. That is less than 2000 units per week.
Regarding price war, it’s only getting started in China and other markets. Tesla dropped model 3 prices from 260 K Yuan to 229K. The profit margins reported at 260 K was 25%. Even with a bigger cut, it has long way to break even or loss. Tesla reported a 19% slow down in Feb 2024 in china, the BYD down by 37-40% in Feb 2024. I didn’t expect Tesla to be so aggressive, but given their 25% margin before price cuts, they can go down lot more than others.
How it started..
How it’s going.
They lost money in their EV group, but their loss in Dec was mostly due to pension issues.
I haven't looked at GM in detail, but what I'm finding is that Ford is continuing production of the Lightning, but has stopped shipment. This was to review a quality control issue, not to cut losses. They're still looking to produce 1600 a week in 2024.
In the absence of information here, you're making it sound like Ford won't recover but Tesla will. I'll choose to assume both manufacturers are incentivized to succeed and will slowly find their way through their issues. Given Teslas history of over promising and under delivering, I'll treat their numbers with the same skepticism I'd give to BYD.
I've blocked Twitter, so I won't be able to see what's referenced there.
Ford and GM were a low margin businesses with heavy debt obligations, well before EV, there is a reason Ford Cut back 12 Billion investment in EV. Toyota and Honda make lot more money than GM and Ford Combined. Toyota sounded like crazy not to go full throttle on EV, but they may have made smarter decision with more focus on PHEV. Ford barely sells 2K Lightening trucks a month, let alone 1600 a week. Ford has announced it will stick to low cost smaller EV to compete with low cost Chinese manufacturers. Tesla has net cash/debt is a positive 28 B USD, compared to Ford at -62 Billion and GM at -55 B.
Tesla should worry about BYD and Hyundai low cost EV, when the EV plant in Georgia opens soon. Toyota and Honda are slow movers , but most healthiest automakers who can probably take more risk, if they ever want to go EV.
And Tesla will become one. Early adopters are willing to pay a premium and put up with quality and maintenance issues to have early access. Tesla has dominated that market and appears to have saturated it. That's why they're cutting prices to grow-- they're driving their margins down to move units.
Teslas used to be tech products, now they're cars. They've always been the same thing, obviously, but how they're viewed by the market and their customers has changed. Tesla is basically selling Ford quality and Mercedes prices. That won't last.
They delayed the investment. Financially there's not much difference between the statements, but they do signal different intent. Ford clearly delayed because demand isn't there yet, but they still believe it will be. I don't think it's a technical inability to produce.
It's a shame, because I think a lot of people would view a Toyota EV as legitimizing the market. It would certainly be a contender on my list. I'm not sure if they held back because they knew the market was soft, or as an attempt to protect and milk their substantial investment in hybrids but, assuming they're able to ramp quickly enough when the demand does appear, it does look like a good business decision for the time being.
The 1600/wk was scaled back from an earlier target of 3200/wk. It's still only like 10% of their ICE F-150 volume, I don't think that's an unreasonable goal.
Trying to compete with low cost Chinese manufacturers would be stupid. Not a level playing field in any way. They'll compete with Tesla, slowly over time, and other makers will start to carve out their market segments. I'm pretty darned sure that China will protect their domestic industry though.
Same with Tesla. I'm not sure competing head to head with BYD is going to end well. I kind of expect we're going to see two global EV markets, one that is open to and dominated by BYD and one that isn't.
Tesla is way past early adopter phase. They shipped 1.8 Million cars last year. Most of Tesla volume comes from later models like Model Y and Model 3. Early adopters were mostly Model X and S. The over all EV market will have head winds, but leaders with lower costs and good margin can survive. Tesla is expected to make billions after other manufacturers start using their charging network. Ford has already told the investors they want to go after low cost smaller EV. Losing 5 Billion on EVs does that to companies. Ford is lucky to sell 2000 trucks per month, let alone 1600 per week. BYD isn’t really gonna be global either. They compete in costs but won’t be able to certify most of their cars in the US. BYD in their own guidance said US or some of the EU markets are out of question.
Tesla has big chunk of revenues coming from the software subscriptions like Auto Pilot and extended range, lot of them is software updates. The funny part is I follow lot of Tesla shorts over last 6-7 years, ton of those guys have shut down their funds.
At this point it will be more or less like smart phone market, BYD will have large volumes, and Tesla will take major chunk of profits. I can see Hyundai competing at lower cost. GM and ford will most likely need a tax payer bailout if they continue the path with huge debt obligations.
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