Apple Touts European Job Creation Numbers, Including 500K Related to App Store

[flottenheimer]

This is a silly contest.

Think about all the indirect jobs, that e.g. Toyota, Lego, Sony, Virgin and VISA have created. Or what number, say, Wal-Mart could crank out — taking credit for creating jobs in countless industries "that previously did not exist in the US economy".

Doing almost any kind of business is being part of an 'eco-system', where everyone depend on one another.

 

[hooch320]

And of those 500k so-called "jobs", how many are making enough from it to really call it a job and do nothing else? I'm guessing an extremely high percentage of those 500k people probably make under a hundred euros per month from it and need to have another/a "real" job.

I run our software development department. I have 7 developers focused on our mobile apps. For the industry I work in, we have to have mobile apps to stay competitive.

 

[till213]

And of those 500k so-called "jobs", how many are making enough from it to really call it a job and do nothing else?

Even so! Those "jobs" actually make Apple look attractive in the first place, not the other way round!

Without those many "apps" the iPhone would not be such an attractive phone! So go figure!

It's like saying: "Hey, I am the boss of a big company, giving many people employment! That's why I say: **** you, Tax Department! I'm not paying! Look for instance at the garbage man which has a job because of me! Because I am the one who produces garbage, and hence jobs! You won't see a dime from me!"

 

[ChrisA]

So the app store furnished 500,000 jobs and has earned $6.5B. If Apple is correct this means that on average each "job" has paid $13,000 total over the time the Appstore has been up. Lets assume it has only been big for five years. This jobs pay $2,600 per year or about $50 a week. Not quite a living wage

But in real life we low the money is not divided equally. Most apps don't sell and a few really sell well. So the VAST MAJORITY of those jobs pay well under $50 per week.

Likewise my 15 year old daughter has a "job" on Youtube and makes about $25 every two or three months from "clicks". So Youtube should claim to employ "millions".

 

[rdlink]

So the app store furnished 500,000 jobs and has earned $6.5B. If Apple is correct this means that on average each "job" has paid $13,000 total over the time the Appstore has been up. Lets assume it has only been big for five years. This jobs pay $2,600 per year or about $50 a week. Not quite a living wage

But in real life we low the money is not divided equally. Most apps don't sell and a few really sell well. So the VAST MAJORITY of those jobs pay well under $50 per week.

Likewise my 15 year old daughter has a "job" on Youtube and makes about $25 every two or three months from "clicks". So Youtube should claim to employ "millions".

Yeah, it's called a free market system, where people get paid dependent on the value of their contribution to the consumers of the system.

If you have the vision and skills to make an app that everyone wants, at a price that everyone thinks fair you will sell it to everyone, and make boat loads of cash. If you make an app that nobody likes, and nobody buys you won't make nearly as much cash. It works that way in every true free market economy. And it's a beautiful thing.

And your daughter obviously finds some value in spending her time and effort on that Youtube "job." Otherwise she wouldn't do it, huh?

 

[lukejr]

How much of the 700 Euro price in Europe is VAT, and already embedded in the price? I've found a claim that it is 23%.

Each country in Europe has their own VAT (sales tax), 23% is the rate in Ireland, UK 20%, Sweden 25%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax

 

[smoledman]

This is nauseating. Microsoft could claim to have created millions of Windows developer jobs over the years. Guess what those ARE full-paying jobs.

 

[zipa]

Samsung should copy this.

Everyone should copy this.

 

[JAT]

The exchange rate varies, but currently $650 USD is 487 Euros, according to Google.

In the US, an additional 7-9% will be added to the price for sales tax, depending on your jurisdiction.

How much of the 700 Euro price in Europe is VAT, and already embedded in the price? I've found a claim that it is 23%. So, to do a direct comparison:

US: 487 + 8% ( 39) = 526.
EU: 700 - 23% (161) = 539.

(Sorry, don't remember the keyboard mapping for the Euro symbol on my US keyboard)

As you can see, the iPhone is still slightly more expensive in Ireland. But, if you account for the different ways that taxes are assessed and the difference in tax rates, the magnitude is much smaller, and almost negligible.

I support your point, but thought I would correct your math. You have taken 700*.23, which is incorrect, as tax would be charged on the product cost. You should take 700/1.23 to show that the total payment is 23% higher than the product cost.

Actual product cost is therefore 569 euro.

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So the app store furnished 500,000 jobs and has earned $6.5B. If Apple is correct this means that on average each "job" has paid $13,000 total over the time the Appstore has been up. Lets assume it has only been big for five years. This jobs pay $2,600 per year or about $50 a week. Not quite a living wage

Relating those numbers is ridiculous.

You didn't even support your own calculation properly. If that $13k figure actually meant anything, it means that Apple was paid that much, not the individual developer. Since Apple takes 30%, that means each dev would have gotten $30,333, or nearly $15.2b in total.

But, as I said, that calculation is silly. Some of those "jobs" are actual Apple jobs, some are jobs with other companies, some are devs. There is no simple math relationship you can actually draw from those two numbers.

 

[firewood]

It's creative destruction. Apple and Google destroyed jobs for Palm and RIM and Nokia developers. Other opportunities were created in exchange.

Same old. Typewriter repair shops close. PC repair shops open. PC repair shops close. eWaste recycle centers open. World turns.

 

[ptb42]

I support your point, but thought I would correct your math. You have taken 700*.23, which is incorrect, as tax would be charged on the product cost. You should take 700/1.23 to show that the total payment is 23% higher than the product cost.

Ah, thank you. I should have looked up how VAT was calculated to determine exactly what was the basis for the tax assessment.

I was in the UK last month and submitted a refund of VAT for a couple of purchases as we departed Heathrow. But, I didn't look closely at the amount or compare it to the purchase price.

 

[Thunderhawks]

No, it does not:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/13/us-apple-italy-tax-idUSBRE9AC0RW20131113

Apple, like Google and others, pays a fraction of what they should. Thieves.

And no, I do not do that.

I don't see any outcome in the Italian example other than the mentioned investigation.

Yes, you do not do that because you are not dealing at that complex a taxation level or with these amounts of money.

It is the duty of any business to pay only as much in taxes as legally necessary.

I am not on the side of any corporation not paying what is legally due, however
whining or complaining about smart corporations using tax loopholes etc. is useless.

Whoever allows it/enables it should be questioned first.

Plus, the tax laws in any country are so complex and confusingly written that eventually the "interpretation" has to get cleared with law suits.

 

[hooch320]

It's creative destruction. Apple and Google destroyed jobs for Palm and RIM and Nokia developers. Other opportunities were created in exchange.

Same old. Typewriter repair shops close. PC repair shops open. PC repair shops close. eWaste recycle centers open. World turns.

How many jobs did they create? I really don't recall the market for these developers being in heavy demand. If anything, they probably moved into iOS/android developers so not much destruction.

 

[zipa]

How very nice for Europe. What about your home country FIRST and screw the rest of the world.

Yes, how about that, especially when the majority of your profits come from the rest of the world. Sounds really good. Someone should make you CEO.

 

[autrefois]

You know what kind of people are the worst? The ones who ask for spare change, and when you give them the change in your pocket, they complain that there's not more of it.

They are not asking for spare change. Implying that Apple is doing some sort of charity work by paying their workers is insulting and ridiculous.

The workers earn their pay. Apple's employees are providing Apple with a valuable resource: their labor. Apple makes billions of dollars because of the work their employees give them.

Apple can have all the greatest ideas in the world, but with no one to make them into products, sell them, service them, etc., Apple is nothing.

 

[Max_Walker]

Corporate Tax rates should follow

Now we just need to get the EU tax rules to reflect the business generated by country and profit on revenue taxed pro rata.

The payment of corporate tax through one of the small countries at a hugely preferential rate is not fair on the others. ireland, Luxemburg getting a free lunch on the rest of us needs to be addressed NOW!

 

[unlinked]

This sounds more like an argument for Apple paying more tax than one for them paying less.

 

[PocketSand11]

Nobody ever advertises that they create jobs in China. Strangely, when a company hires workers in China, they're seen as hurting the employees rather than helping them. If they move jobs back to the U.S., it's worth advertising, but people in China lose their jobs that they were already desperate to have. Sure they don't pay them enough in the first place, but that's a separate issue.

 

[PocketSand11]

It's creative destruction. Apple and Google destroyed jobs for Palm and RIM and Nokia developers. Other opportunities were created in exchange.

Same old. Typewriter repair shops close. PC repair shops open. PC repair shops close. eWaste recycle centers open. World turns.

Yeah, but they created more jobs for developers than they destroyed.

 

[Rogifan]

This sounds more like an argument for Apple paying more tax than one for them paying less.

How so?

 

[HardRain]

You know what kind of people are the worst? The ones who ask for spare change, and when you give them the change in your pocket, they complain that there's not more of it.

Not as bad as those who lie, by saying that hard work and being paid a pittance, is asking for spare change.

 

[kis]

Yes, you still gotta pay taxes. Taxes don't kill jobs. Also, those developers they name probably do pay taxes, which doesn't always seem to be the case for Apple?

 

[Winni]

I wonder if they subtracted the developers who make less than the $99/year membership fee. That would remove a lot of developers.

I wonder how many employees they have subtracted that work for companies who --also-- sell, fix or support Apple products but that do also sell a lot of competing products. If you look at Cyberport, for example, then Apple can claim that they support jobs there, but Cyberport also sells, repairs and supports every other brand on the market. They're not a pure Apple shop.

Does Apple also count jobs at Amazon?

And do they claim that the more than one MILLION jobs at Foxconn, China, where all of their products are assembled, are also only there because of Apple?

Lastly, I wonder how big that number would be if Microsoft used the same algorithm to count the jobs that they've created. That number would probably be somewhere in the tens of millions.

In other words, don't trust any statistics that you haven't faked yourself.

 

[Ramius]

Anyone who could help me get these numbers for Norway?

 

[Sonisk]

Pretty lies.