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FrankieTDouglas

macrumors 68000
Mar 10, 2005
1,554
2,882
...though really, why would anyone discriminate against a redhead? Comeon. It's just a hair color.

I don't know, yet here we are without much visible representation (there's Prince Harry, but he was sort of born into that role rather than selected). So if there's not a visible presence, then the reason must be due to either overt discrimination or passive, with no one acknowledging or promoting the diversity we would bring to a group.

(Good points in your post, btw)
 

fedup flyer

macrumors regular
Jan 18, 2008
241
53
Affirmative action doesn't require businesses to hire X amount of Asians, black people, or Samoans per Y amount of white people. The quotas are all but a myth usually perpetrated by people who don't understand how it works. At its most basic, what AA does is insures a person normally discriminated against in the workplace has the same rights to a job and a living as anyone.

Like if you're a well qualified black dude who's been itching for a high paying job, but keep getting passed in favor of less qualified white dudes, then you probably have an AA case. But on the flip side of that, they're not gonna hire you just because you're black. That's not what AA does.

That is the way AA is supposed to work but in the real world it is the exact opposite.
I my industry I have seen way to many (minority) under-qualified/ barley qualified applicants hired over (non-minority) highly qualified applicants simply because of of skin color/ gender.



Did you know the only non-protected class out there is white male under 40?
Every other sex/creed/color has some sort of EEOC "protection".
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,124
7,990
Because society is still sexist.

No, because there are undeniable biological differences between the sexes that are far deeper than, say, skin color. Men are "underrepresented" in professions such as nursing and teaching. Actually, in some of the most "equal" societies, such as Scandinavia, the gender disparities between historically "female" professions (such as child care or nursing) and "male" professions (such as physical labor) are even greater than in relatively less "equal" societies such as the US and Canada.

Communism generally has a pretty good record on sexual equality. That said your Cuba point about their parliament doesn't really counter my point about Iranian CS graduates. If Iran is a backwards country it only makes it more embarrassing that Western countries can't match it's CS graduation rate
Of course. But there's a good chance they aren't an old white male as is typical for US board members.

Communism has a "good record" because it is pretty good at destroying economic and personal opportunity. Everyone is equally dirt poor and oppressed.

Iran isn't really a "backward" country. To the contrary, they are one of the most advanced and educated societies (and were quite wealthy before the revolution). That doesn't mean they don't have an authoritarian government or that women are treated equally. Heck, India and Pakistan had women prime ministers in the 1980s and 1990s, respectively. I don't think many would claim that either of those societies has achieved gender equality.

A function of a freer society is that people make their own choices, which may or may not match the normative ideals of a central planner (usually not). Yes, a mandate can achieve the stated desires of a central planner a lot more quickly, but it doesn't mean the resulting society is any better. Often it is worse.
 

bsolar

macrumors 68000
Jun 20, 2011
1,535
1,751
...though really, why would anyone discriminate against a redhead? Comeon. It's just a hair color.

Ignorance doesn't require a reason to discriminate, it only requires you to be different in some way. Reasons can be always made up from thin air:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#Prejudice_and_discrimination_against_redheads

Red hair was thought to be a mark of a beastly sexual desire and moral degeneration. A savage red-haired man is portrayed in the fable by Grimm brothers (Der Eisenhans) as the spirit of the forest of iron. Theophilus Presbyter describes how the blood of a red-haired young man is necessary to create gold from copper, in a mixture with the ashes of a basilisk.

Montague Summers, in his translation of the Malleus Maleficarum, notes that red hair and green eyes were thought to be the sign of a witch, a werewolf or a vampire during the Middle Ages;

"Those whose hair is red, of a certain peculiar shade, are unmistakably vampires. It is significant that in ancient Egypt, as Manetho tells us, human sacrifices were offered at the grave of Osiris, and the victims were red-haired men who were burned, their ashes being scattered far and wide by winnowing-fans. It is held by some authorities that this was done to fertilize the fields and produce a bounteous harvest, red-hair symbolizing the golden wealth of the corn. But these men were called Typhonians, and were representatives not of Osiris but of his evil rival Typhon, whose hair was red."
 

ctyrider

macrumors 65816
Jul 15, 2012
1,025
591
Go back and read my response - Cook inherited several market changing products propelled by Steve - NOT Tim Cook - he was a supply chain guru. We are now seeing what Cook has as his time at the helm has grown. All the anticipated product refresh is done, China Mobile is signed, cash flow will probably be great for the holiday season, stock remains $150 under where it was 15 months ago. That is poor roi performance.

OK, we get it - you don't like Tim Cook, and you would have done much better job as Apple's CEO. Now, let's get back to the topic of this thread shall we?
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
Go back and read my response - Cook inherited several market changing products propelled by Steve - NOT Tim Cook - he was a supply chain guru. We are now seeing what Cook has as his time at the helm has grown. All the anticipated product refresh is done, China Mobile is signed, cash flow will probably be great for the holiday season, stock remains $150 under where it was 15 months ago.

I've read your responses. You've been making the same argument for a while now. All you do is cherry pick statistics and reject any rebuttals out of hand. Market changing products don't happen on a schedule.

That is poor roi performance.

Again, only if you made the bad decision to make a short term investment at the top of what turned out to be a bubble. People that chose to buy Apple stock in mid-2012 aren't Apple's primary concern.
 

KdParker

macrumors 601
Oct 1, 2010
4,793
998
Everywhere
That is the way AA is supposed to work but in the real world it is the exact opposite.
I my industry I have seen way to many (minority) under-qualified/ barley qualified applicants hired over (non-minority) highly qualified applicants simply because of of skin color/ gender.



Did you know the only non-protected class out there is white male under 40?
Every other sex/creed/color has some sort of EEOC "protection".

I call BS on this.

This is the same fear tactics that has been spilled out by the right and Limbaugh types forever. All the while never offering any real proof that this has ever been the case.

Did you know that white males under 40 don't need protection.
If you are a white male and can't get a good paying job in this country, then you need to look at yourself since the scales have be tilted in your favor for a very long time.
 
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ctyrider

macrumors 65816
Jul 15, 2012
1,025
591
People that chose to buy Apple stock in mid-2012 aren't Apple's primary concern.

And thank goodness for that. if Apple as a company decided to base their strategy to appease clueless Wall Street analysts and whiney short-term investors - we would have to say goodbye to Apple as we know it.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
I don't know, yet here we are without much visible representation (there's Prince Harry, but he was sort of born into that role rather than selected). So if there's not a visible presence, then the reason must be due to either overt discrimination or passive, with no one acknowledging or promoting the diversity we would bring to a group.

(Good points in your post, btw)

I won't discount it, especially after reading what bsolar posted below, but for the my part, I always thought you saw all that many true redheads around because there weren't all that many to see. It's the rarest of all natural haircolors.
 

KdParker

macrumors 601
Oct 1, 2010
4,793
998
Everywhere
You (and others) need to stop making this strawman argument. No one has suggested that Apple hires anything less than "most qualified candidates". However, when the end result is predominantly white male group of leaders - that's indicative of a bigger problem.

Look at other companies in Silicon Valley, such as Google or Cisco - they have a lot broader representation of minorities and women in their leadership team. Apple does not. Do not tell me that "majority of people who apply for technology jobs" are white males - that is false. Take a walk around Google campus - you will see a huge number of minorities (particularly of Asian and Indian descent) and women. White men do not make up for 99% of Silicon Valley technology workers.

Apple's hiring and leadership promotion culture needs to change.

Well said.
 

Apple Corps

macrumors 68030
Apr 26, 2003
2,575
542
California
I've read your responses. You've been making the same argument for a while now. All you do is cherry pick statistics and reject any rebuttals out of hand. Market changing products don't happen on a schedule.

The same "argument" is being made for some time now BECAUSE the poor performance continues on and on. We are where we were 12 months ago - Apple did not even beat the Dow this past year - facts count.



Again, only if you made the bad decision to make a short term investment at the top of what turned out to be a bubble. People that chose to buy Apple stock in mid-2012 aren't Apple's primary concern.

What is a bubble? Simply a way for you to try and discount some FACTS. How has Google managed to do so well on trading multiples? What about Amazon? Apple is in MUCH better shape than those but Tim either has no compelling message for the market or can't deliver it.

I raised this issue under this thread as I see him getting tied up in this apple pie, motherhood and the American flag policy rubbish while not effectively addressing the roi to investors.
 

FrankieTDouglas

macrumors 68000
Mar 10, 2005
1,554
2,882
I won't discount it, especially after reading what bsolar posted below, but for the my part, I always thought you saw all that many true redheads around because there weren't all that many to see. It's the rarest of all natural haircolors.

Oh, I know (and despite being one, I actually don't care if redheads are or aren't represented in certain percentages). I'm just making an example point that every group and subgroup in the world can play this game. I guess it mainly depends on who lobbies the most.
 

calaverasgrande

macrumors 65816
Oct 18, 2010
1,291
161
Brooklyn, New York.
Did you know the only non-protected class out there is white male under 40?
Every other sex/creed/color has some sort of EEOC "protection".
boo hoo
what white males like myself forget is that we already are a "protected class". When I say "doctor" the image that pops in most people's minds is a white guy.
When I say "DBA" or "IT guy" the image that pop in most folk's head is again a white guy.
White men are the dominant group in most of Western Civilization the same way Han Chinese are the dominant group in Asia.
 

macpro2000

macrumors 65816
Feb 23, 2005
1,326
1,098
boo hoo
what white males like myself forget is that we already are a "protected class". When I say "doctor" the image that pops in most people's minds is a white guy.
When I say "DBA" or "IT guy" the image that pop in most folk's head is again a white guy.
White men are the dominant group in most of Western Civilization the same way Han Chinese are the dominant group in Asia.

And the image that pops up in everybody's head when I say Harlem Globetrotter? Exactly. Although they did put a black gal on there but she's horrible in comparison. Hmmm, my point again.
 

WestonHarvey1

macrumors 68030
Jan 9, 2007
2,773
2,191
Unfortunately, that's a difficult message to deliver. I think it even came up during one of the presidential debates in 2012. But since it doesn't have an "easy" solution it is usually ignored.

It may not need a solution. These women are doing what they want.
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,124
7,990
It may not need a solution. These women are doing what they want.

Exactly. But because that message doesn't play well politically, and because politicians want to "fix" problems (even ones that don't exist), we get "solutions" such as diversity mandates.
 

mrxak

macrumors 68000
However, there is an assumption that women aren't interested in, and/or aren't good at, many jobs that are currently held by a male majority. This is an institutional problem. It starts at childhood social indoctrination times in grade school. Parents do it to their own children and schools reinforce it. That's why we end up with "few women engineers".

If we believe, as a society, that this is a problem, then we should address the root cause and let everything evolve naturally from there over time. Attempting radical and sudden social change by starting at the top, and placing less qualified, less experienced women in positions of leadership, is the exact opposite way society should seek to solve it. It does nothing but breed resentment, and the belief that women are incapable of reaching these positions without special treatment. Not to mention our businesses will suffer in the meantime because less qualified candidates are being chosen for positions.

There should be equal opportunity, not equal outcomes. Mandating equal outcomes is oppressive, unfair, and just plain stupid. Nobody is saying women can't go to school and study in certain fields, or get low level jobs at certain businesses. What we're saying here is that women should have to work their way up from the bottom just as men do, so that only the best achieve the highest positions, based on their education, experience, and talent. If women have equal opportunities, but choose to have different priorities and thus end up with different outcomes, that is not something we should condemn.

No, because there are undeniable biological differences between the sexes that are far deeper than, say, skin color. Men are "underrepresented" in professions such as nursing and teaching. Actually, in some of the most "equal" societies, such as Scandinavia, the gender disparities between historically "female" professions (such as child care or nursing) and "male" professions (such as physical labor) are even greater than in relatively less "equal" societies such as the US and Canada.

There's actually quite a bit of overt discrimination in teaching at the elementary and pre-K school level. Men are strongly discouraged from taking the requisite classes in college and are rarely hired for actual positions. Any man who expresses an interest in teaching kids younger than middle school age is regarded with suspicion at an institutional level. Rules are designed to discriminate against men, with the assumption that any man who chooses a job in early education is gay and/or a pedophile. Fathers are largely kept away from even volunteering at schools. Many (mostly female) administrators at this level hire no men at all. At the pre-K level in particular, only 3% of educators are male.

This state of affairs came about as a result of the feminist movement wanting to take over early education and thus shape society starting with young kids. They saw education, particularly early education, as supporting a white, paternal society, and sought to take it over. They wanted to feminize early education and eliminate male influence, in order to re-engineer society. The result is the above. Now, children are isolated from men most of the time, fathers are treated as second-class parents, and boys are labeled with learning disabilities 3 times as often as girls.

If you want an example of how affirmative action seeks to create "equality", early education is a prime example.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,795
10,933
What is a bubble?

A limited period of time where investors over-valued the stock.

Simply a way for you to try and discount some FACTS.

I'm not discounting it at all. I consider it one statistic among many.

How has Google managed to do so well on trading multiples? What about Amazon? Apple is in MUCH better shape than those but Tim either has no compelling message for the market or can't deliver it.

I assume you are referring to P/E ratio here. And, again, you are throwing out a statistic without any sense of context. Apple's P/E ratio is about the same as it was when Tim Cook took over. Amazon's is just insane, so it completely undermines your attempt to create a comparison.

I raised this issue under this thread as I see him getting tied up in this apple pie, motherhood and the American flag policy rubbish while not effectively addressing the roi to investors.

Right back to ignoring the anything that doesn't fit your storyline.
 

calaverasgrande

macrumors 65816
Oct 18, 2010
1,291
161
Brooklyn, New York.
And the image that pops up in everybody's head when I say Harlem Globetrotter? Exactly. Although they did put a black gal on there but she's horrible in comparison. Hmmm, my point again.
except Meadowlark Lemon (or whomever is the star of that franchise now) and gang are not a generic job description. Most of us have been seeing Harlem Globetrotters ads since we were children. May as well say name a member of Earth Wind and Fire or some other African American entertainment group that is frequently advertised.
(for non-US forumites, Harlem Globetrotters are a non-NBA basketball team that plays "exhibition" games against various non-pro teams across the country. They specialize in showboating tricks and stunts. Kind of like a traveling circus based around basketball. They are almost exclusively African American, having their origins in pre-desegregation American sports. Though they have had a few latin and white members over the years.)
If I whistle "Sweet Georgia Brown" in an upbeat tempo, any American will say "Globetrotters!"
 

phillipduran

macrumors 65816
Apr 30, 2008
1,055
607
No, it isn't. It's fair play. Do you really want to say that the disparity of women in important positions is because they aren't capable like men are?

Clearly, women have been discriminated against for years, placing many men in positions that they really didn't deserve because there was an equally qualified (or even more qualified) woman who got passed over.

It is only fair to try to right this wrong by helping equally qualified women to get an advantage to address past wrongs.

I would never advocate for a women who is less qualified to be chosen over a man, but when they are equally qualified, it is morally the right thing to do, since we have discriminated against them in the past.

So no to equality and yes to elevating women above men in the workplace?

And you speak of morally right things to do. :rolleyes:

Best person should get the job. You want the job, become the best. Don't bring your private parts, skin color, economic situation or any other factors to the job offer, just your skills and experience.
 
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