Are laptops from other manufacturers as good as lenovo's?

[kazmac]

Apple have stated in their press release "a small number of users". I know, you'll say "well of course Apple will say that, damage control.." but they're a big company, with lots of people criticising and trying to bring them down. They're also a public company that is accountable for its actions and statements to the public. They're audited. Internally checked. If you honestly think they're lying about that, then you might as well Google conspiracy theories with your time and buy into that too. I'll say it again, small number of users with the problem. At LEAST as many users on here / on the whole actually like the keyboard. Have had no issues. What do you say about them? Eh?

Respectfully,

Just saying: Apple did not do much of anything about the keyboards until the class action lawsuits AND Johanna Stern’s excellent and damning WSJ article from late March. And even, then it was a band aid.

Apple even apologized about the keyboard after the WSJ article ran. They rarely admit they’re wrong.

And they still have not addressed the touch disease and heat issues in most of the current iPads.

I had touch disease problems in every single iPad I’ve bought since 2017, Pros, 2019 Mini and 2018 regular models (8 in all). Two were sold (at big loses), five were returned and one went to my mom who doesn’t use it much yet to notice. There are no class action lawsuits yet and lots of people are having this problem (Not just here and on Apple’s official forum). After 8 tries, I had enough recently and returned my last iPad. Even gave up drawing on one.

Hell, even this iPhone 8+ has occasional touch disease (the thought of having to replace yet another phone in months of ownership is pissing me off).

For me, personal experience is everything. I experienced stuck keys with a MBP at an Apple and a Best Buy store. I hated the butterfly keyboards, and after my demo experiences with those keyboards and my iPad debacle, I’ve come to believe folks about the keyboard mess.

Like several others here and elsewhere, I cannot trust Apple anymore. For me, that is what it comes down to.

I do not think there’s a conspiracy here. Apple is actively admitting this keyboard can fail. If it doesn’t, great. The fact that these keyboards can and do fail is not something I want to play the lottery with.

I understand your perspective, but I also understand the p.o.v. from folks here whom I agree with based on my experience.

 

[0989382]

Respectfully,

Just saying: Apple did not do much of anything about the keyboards until the class action lawsuits AND Johanna Stern’s excellent and damning WSJ article from late March. And even, then it was a band aid.

Apple even apologized about the keyboard after the WSJ article ran. They rarely admit they’re wrong.

And they still have not addressed the touch disease and heat issues in most of the current iPads.

I had touch disease problems in every single iPad I’ve bought since 2017, Pros, 2019 Mini and 2018 regular models (8 in all). Two were sold (at big loses), five were returned and one went to my mom who doesn’t use it much yet to notice. There are no class action lawsuits yet and lots of people are having this problem (Not just here and on Apple’s official forum). After 8 tries, I had enough recently and returned my last iPad. Even gave up drawing on one.

Hell, even this iPhone 8+ has occasional touch disease (the thought of having to replace yet another phone in months of ownership is pissing me off).

For me, personal experience is everything. I experienced stuck keys with a MBP at an Apple and a Best Buy store. I hated the butterfly keyboards, and after my demo experiences with those keyboards and my iPad debacle, I’ve come to believe folks about the keyboard mess.

Like several others here and elsewhere, I cannot trust Apple anymore. For me, that is what it comes down to.

I do not think there’s a conspiracy here. Apple is actively admitting this keyboard can fail. If it doesn’t, great. The fact that these keyboards can and do fail is not something I want to play the lottery with.

I understand your perspective, but I also understand the p.o.v. from folks here whom I agree with based on my experience.

Yeah my main point to them is just that it's their personal experience, not fact. And that many others with a positive personal experience also exist, and are equally as valid.. though seemingly less vocal. There are no numbers to suggest that it's such a big number of people affected to back up the stories some people like to repeat on here as far as I'm concerned.

Personal experience is the best decision making tool for you. But not for others. Not religiously, anyway. I've had a poor personal experience with MBP keyboards too, but that doesn't write the product off for me. When I don't have issues, it's the best keyboard I've ever used to the point where I'll be disappointed if they ditch it. All products can fail in any way at any time, and they do. But that's just because nothing is perfect. I really don't feel the MB keyboard is anything beyond blown out of proportion on MR and by tech media, which are generally both anti-Apple usually anyway lol

 

[kazmac]

Yeah my main point to them is just that it's their personal experience, not fact. And that many others with a positive personal experience also exist, and are equally as valid.. though seemingly less vocal. There are no numbers to suggest that it's such a big number of people affected to back up the stories some people like to repeat on here as far as I'm concerned.

Personal experience is the best decision making tool for you. But not for others. Not religiously, anyway. I've had a poor personal experience with MBP keyboards too, but that doesn't write the product off for me. When I don't have issues, it's the best keyboard I've ever used to the point where I'll be disappointed if they ditch it. All products can fail in any way at any time, and they do. But that's just because nothing is perfect. I really don't feel the MB keyboard is anything beyond blown out of proportion on MR and by tech media, which are generally both anti-Apple usually anyway lol

Long post short, I watch what Apple does not what they say. That and the fact they’ve gone through multiple redesigns of that keyboard and offer the repair plan outright.

My experience is more than enough fact for me. Perhaps, when you’ve eaten several thousand even with AC, you’ll understand this perspective. Or not. No worries.

Enjoy your Apple tech, and live and let live.

 

[0989382]

Long post short, I watch what Apple does not what they say. That and the fact they’ve gone through multiple redesigns of that keyboard and offer the repair plan outright.

My experience is more than enough fact for me. Perhaps, when you’ve eaten several thousand even with AC, you’ll understand this perspective. Or not. No worries.

Enjoy your Apple tech, and live and let live.

It's your opinion, not fact ;-)

 

[Queen6]

Respectfully,

Just saying: Apple did not do much of anything about the keyboards until the class action lawsuits AND Johanna Stern’s excellent and damning WSJ article from late March. And even, then it was a band aid.

Apple even apologized about the keyboard after the WSJ article ran. They rarely admit they’re wrong.

And they still have not addressed the touch disease and heat issues in most of the current iPads.

I had touch disease problems in every single iPad I’ve bought since 2017, Pros, 2019 Mini and 2018 regular models (8 in all). Two were sold (at big loses), five were returned and one went to my mom who doesn’t use it much yet to notice. There are no class action lawsuits yet and lots of people are having this problem (Not just here and on Apple’s official forum). After 8 tries, I had enough recently and returned my last iPad. Even gave up drawing on one.

Hell, even this iPhone 8+ has occasional touch disease (the thought of having to replace yet another phone in months of ownership is pissing me off).

For me, personal experience is everything. I experienced stuck keys with a MBP at an Apple and a Best Buy store. I hated the butterfly keyboards, and after my demo experiences with those keyboards and my iPad debacle, I’ve come to believe folks about the keyboard mess.

Like several others here and elsewhere, I cannot trust Apple anymore. For me, that is what it comes down to.

I do not think there’s a conspiracy here. Apple is actively admitting this keyboard can fail. If it doesn’t, great. The fact that these keyboards can and do fail is not something I want to play the lottery with.

I understand your perspective, but I also understand the p.o.v. from folks here whom I agree with based on my experience.

It's both personal experience and capability Apple has failed many on both counts and reliability. I used to see many independent professionals opting for the Mac, today a very different picture as they don't need the baggage and problems. A lot of these guys have decades on the Mac, equally they need hardware and software solutions that work, accelerates workflow, not impedes.

Apple failed to react appropriately regarding the keyboard simple as that and there's certainly no conspiracy. Apple produced a poor design and decided it was cheaper to ride out the storm than replace a flawed design requiring a new chassis. As you stated many simply no longer trust Apple as it will not acknowledge issue without imminent court intervention. It will only replace in general the same flawed components in the event of failure, increasingly user hostile designs, hardware that is excessively costly to upgrade let alone repair.

It may only be an observation, equally I hardy see Mac's in the work environment these days, and those I know share much the same sentiments. That said these are engineers, designers etc. Going to be interesting watching Apple market the MBP with hardly any professionals on the platform, last count was just 15% no doubt that's depreciated ever further and another metric Apple wont be releasing anytime soon...

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

Just saying: Apple did not do much of anything about the keyboards until the class action lawsuits AND Johanna Stern’s excellent and damning WSJ article from late March. And even, then it was a band aid.

Yep, the repair program wasn't started until 2018, so those poor folks who had a 2016/2017 w/o applecare ended up having to pay for the repair which wasn't cheap, and in some situations multiple times. The only reason apple addressed the issue is because of negative press and the class action suit.

The iPad Pro has a bending issue, but w/o much negative press, or class action suit, apple is silent.

Apple's financial call, shows that these issues has not impacted the bottom line, there mac business appears to be strong as ever, but as I'm a single consumer, I've decided to move on. I'm but a drop in the bucket, nor am I trying to effect change by voting with my wallet but rather find a solution that best fits my needs and budget.

 

[0989382]

It's both personal experience and capability Apple has failed many on both counts and reliability. I used to see many independent professionals opting for the Mac, today a very different picture as they don't need the baggage and problems. A lot of these guys have decades on the Mac, equally they need hardware and software solutions that work, accelerates workflow, not impedes.

Apple failed to react appropriately regarding the keyboard simple as that and there's certainly no conspiracy. Apple produced a poor design and decided it was cheaper to ride out the storm than replace a flawed design requiring a new chassis. As you stated many simply no longer trust Apple as it will not acknowledge issue without imminent court intervention. It will only replace in general the same flawed components in the event of failure, increasingly user hostile designs, hardware that is excessively costly to upgrade let alone repair.

It may only be an observation, equally I hardy see Mac's in the work environment these days, and those I know share much the same sentiments. That said these are engineers, designers etc. Going to be interesting watching Apple market the MBP with hardly any professionals on the platform, last count was just 15% no doubt that's depreciated ever further and another metric Apple wont be releasing anytime soon...

Q-6

I've seen a lot of new offices popping up where I live and amongst the fancy glass partitions it's all iMacs as the computers of choice, and this is just for administrators a lot of the time. The designers too use iMacs. So whilst your limited scope suggests they aren't being used by professionals, my own limited scope would suggest they are being used by professionals still... A lot of the private individuals I work with usually choose their own computer and anytime I've seen one with a ThinkPad or XPS they're quick to tell me they prefer their Mac (to my surprise). Again, limited scope but I feel the opposite.

Apple (and any consumer electronics company) will do that. I had a pair of Bowers & Wilkins headphones that broke, what did they do? Gave my new ones of the same design. No redesign. No consumer electronics company is going to completely redesign an existing product in its lifecycle. And if it was truly bad enough to do so, they'd pull it. Look at the Galaxy Fold. Remember the white MacBooks? if you've been on the Mac even that long you'll remember the palm rest cracking issue... I had that numerous times and my Apple Store literally admitted that all they could do was keep repairing it with the same part. Unless its health and safety they're not redesigning anything, and everyone's the same. What more can you expect? And, you know, a flawed product will always fail, prematurely. What about those guys on here with their 2015 MB and 2016 MBP without issues? It's normally a very vocal minority as we see on MR shouting about their issue, mistaking it for a flawed product.

Really important, but where did you get this 15% from? Perhaps that could back up your argument sufficiently beyond doubt, because at the minute it's just essentially 'my word against yours' based on nothing but limited scope observations on both ends.
[doublepost=1564571087][/doublepost]

Yep, the repair program wasn't started until 2018, so those poor folks who had a 2016/2017 w/o applecare ended up having to pay for the repair which wasn't cheap, and in some situations multiple times. The only reason apple addressed the issue is because of negative press and the class action suit.

The iPad Pro has a bending issue, but w/o much negative press, or class action suit, apple is silent.

Apple's financial call, shows that these issues has not impacted the bottom line, there mac business appears to be strong as ever, but as I'm a single consumer, I've decided to move on. I'm but a drop in the bucket, nor am I trying to effect change by voting with my wallet but rather find a solution that best fits my needs and budget.

Many of those people affected with the 2016 and 2017 were 'quietly taken car of' by Genuises at the Apple Store, but those Geniuses instructed to just seem 'generous' in repairing them. Of course, some refused and there would be genuine cases where users have genuinely screwed it up at no fault of Apple's so terror stories still circulated. But honestly, very few people paid for that repair once the news stories about the MBP started to explode.

 

[maflynn]

Many of those people

Some but not all. There were some apple customers who had to pay, even though it was due to apple's flawed design. Similarly bendgate, where apple continually accused the owners of causing their iphones to bend, even though internal documents discovered during the class action suit, illustrated that apple was fully aware the design was weaker and prone to bend.

 

[0989382]

Some but not all. There were some apple customers who had to pay, even though it was due to apple's flawed design. Similarly bendgate, where apple continually accused the owners of causing their iphones to bend, even though internal documents discovered during the class action suit, illustrated that apple was fully aware the design was weaker and prone to bend.

That is unfortunate. And until a programme or wide enough awareness that maybe it is a common issue on a new product, that'll be the case sadly. I really don't see it as a 'flawed design' when it's likely that more than half of its users are having no issue and actually enjoying it. Flawed design I'd say is like the MBP graphics issues a few years ago... Every single one of those machines will suffer from it. With the keyboards, that's not the case. There's guys on here who've had no issues and love it. And of course on forum is a small group of users in the grand scheme of MBP's.

Well they would know that aluminium is a softer, easier to bend material than steel from iPhone 4 to iPhone 5.. That's not by Apple's design. Sure, they test all products in a tonne of ways, such as bending them etc, and obviously the aluminium bent a bit easier, but someone at Apple obviously decided that it was within reasonable tolerance. Then they found a way to make stronger aluminium in future models. Whether or not the 5 was flawed, again I don't think it was. I had one (longest iPhone I owned) and had no bending. I'm sure if I made effort it'd have bent, and if I made similar effort on the 4 it wouldn't bend without more force. Now , the antenna problem? That's a flaw. Every. Single. Device suffered.

 

[maflynn]

I really don't see it as a 'flawed design'

You may not, but there are plenty that do, since they've apologized and since its highly likely we'll see the end of the butterfly keyboard this year or next. You like your Mac and you're defending your purchase and the company, I get it, but lets keep this thread on topic This thread isn't about the MBP and we're kind of going off the bunny trail. The OP wanted to know what laptops are as good as lenovo, and we're getting into a Mac vs. Pc war at this point.

 

[0989382]

You may not, but there are plenty that do, since they've apologized and since its highly likely we'll see the end of the butterfly keyboard this year or next. You like your Mac and you're defending your purchase and the company, I get it, but lets keep this thread on topic This thread isn't about the MBP and we're kind of going off the bunny trail. The OP wanted to know what laptops are as good as lenovo, and we're getting into a Mac vs. Pc war at this point.

That's fair enough, but you ought to maybe have a similar word with the others who keep bringing up the keyboard aspect of the MBP. As long as it keeps getting slated for it, I'll continue to offer the other half of the topic. There's lots of people unhappy, but also people happy and for say OP there, it's important they know that despite the negative experiences there's also some positive and happy users too. Surely that gives a more fair, more balanced view.

But in getting back to the OP, I'm a believer that Lenovo is definitely the most reliable of the PC manufacturers but it typically gets that reputation from the ThinkPad line which sacrifices a lot of 'nice' design to achieve this. Some people love the style, others find it bland. I like it. Dells computers are supposedly much better now than they have been in the past decade, but I find their computers not lookers and not feeling like they're well built (from in store use of them) but they get good reviews and are the 'go to' MBP alternative on Windows. HP, whilst I generally like their design aesthetic is always plagued with hardware issues and lacklustre (if any) support, at least here in the UK. Lenovo is the winner if you want user repairability, easy to source and order replacement parts and long term support. Something Apple never has and never will do, to my dismay! Lol

 

[hajime]

Where we're you that you sampled three Razer laptops that were all warm? Inside a retail store where the screen savers are turned off and the screens stay on indefinitely?

I recently had a Razer that was fantastic. Great keyboard, very solid, great design, fast, and decent battery life. I returned it because I could not get used to Windows in an all Apple household. Still a great computer though. Did not run hot at all even while editing video. I will probably buy one again.

At MS store in a shopping mall. Technician there said all razer laptops are very warm.

 

[kazmac]

At MS store in a shopping mall. Technician there said all razer laptops are very warm.

Was there anything else there you liked?

 

[c0ppo]

Apple have stated in their press release "a small number of users". I know, you'll say "well of course Apple will say that, damage control.." but they're a big company, with lots of people criticising and trying to bring them down. They're also a public company that is accountable for its actions and statements to the public. They're audited. Internally checked. If you honestly think they're lying about that, then you might as well Google conspiracy theories with your time and buy into that too. I'll say it again, small number of users with the problem. At LEAST as many users on here / on the whole actually like the keyboard. Have had no issues. What do you say about them? Eh?

Of course I'm gonna say that Apple will say 'a small number of users'. You already mentioned their reasons for doing that - they are a public traded company. If they said 'a lot of our users are experiencing problems', well, that wouldn't do well for them, would it? Every shareholder would be pissed, and rightly so.

And this obviously affects you on personal level, and I just don't understand why?
As far as the feel of the butterfly keyboard goes - I love it. You can read my posts all the way back to firs Macbook 12". I'm one of those who loved the feel of the new keyboard.

But as far as reliability goes - it's junk. Pure and simple - junk.
You have no issues with it? Great for you. I also had no T2 kernel crashes. Not even one. But does that mean that T2 related issues don't exist?

Writing in red color isn't the way to go. It's kinda hard to read. At least to me.
Like I already said, no one besides Apple knows what percentage of users are actually affected. No one. Not even you.

 

[0989382]

Of course I'm gonna say that Apple will say 'a small number of users'. You already mentioned their reasons for doing that - they are a public traded company. If they said 'a lot of our users are experiencing problems', well, that wouldn't do well for them, would it? Every shareholder would be pissed, and rightly so.

And this obviously affects you on personal level, and I just don't understand why?
As far as the feel of the butterfly keyboard goes - I love it. You can read my posts all the way back to firs Macbook 12". I'm one of those who loved the feel of the new keyboard.

But as far as reliability goes - it's junk. Pure and simple - junk.
You have no issues with it? Great for you. I also had no T2 kernel crashes. Not even one. But does that mean that T2 related issues don't exist?

Writing in red color isn't the way to go. It's kinda hard to read. At least to me.
Like I already said, no one besides Apple knows what percentage of users are actually affected. No one. Not even you.

Their shareholding is affected the same either way. All consumer products have issues to be addressed, no different for Apple only that click bait media sites will blow it out of proportion for more views.

A lot less personal than the crying folk who are here to scaremonger. I’m glad you like the keyboards, me too. They are great.

Junk? Apple doesn’t produce junk. Go back and find my message about all of the other aspects of the MBP detailed and how these are superior to any PC laptop today.

The T2 Issue wasn’t blown out of proportion.

Red stands out. You were able to read it okay. To a better extent than formulate a reply, anyway! The fact you’re mentioning that is a statement of how weak your argument is.

Your last point ... nobody knows. Not even you. But what we’ve got to go by, Apples statement and again, a minuscule sample of butthurt users on one small apple forum is well within a ‘small number of people’. So go figure.

 

[Queen6]

Their shareholding is affected the same either way. All consumer products have issues to be addressed, no different for Apple only that click bait media sites will blow it out of proportion for more views.

A lot less personal than the crying folk who are here to scaremonger. I’m glad you like the keyboards, me too. They are great.

Junk? Apple doesn’t produce junk. Go back and find my message about all of the other aspects of the MBP detailed and how these are superior to any PC laptop today.

The T2 Issue wasn’t blown out of proportion.

Red stands out. You were able to read it okay. To a better extent than formulate a reply, anyway! The fact you’re mentioning that is a statement of how weak your argument is.

Your last point ... nobody knows. Not even you. But what we’ve got to go by, Apples statement and again, a minuscule sample of butthurt users on one small apple forum is well within a ‘small number of people’. So go figure.

Might want to consider others may have more demanding needs. Told you many are dropping the Mac professionally, and that's a direct observation not an opinion. These guy's are not dropping the platform due to pricing they are dropping it due to usability, performance and reliability issues. Relying on your Mac for FarceBook versus your livelihood in technically demanding realms an entirely different matter.

Funniest thing is most independent Pro's don't care about the hardware, they simply want it meet their needs and be reliable. I can work across Linux, MacOS, Windows, equally the underlying hardware has to be fit for purpose and the best one wins out; Reliability, Performance, Ports and for some scalability surprisingly ever considered counts. If the 15" MBP was the best tool I'd be responding on one as the cost is inconsequential at best...

Q-6

 

[0989382]

Might want to consider others may have more demanding needs. Told you many are dropping the Mac professionally, and that's a direct observation not an opinion. These guy's are not dropping the platform due to pricing they are dropping it due to usability, performance and reliability issues. Relying on your Mac for FarceBook versus your livelihood in technically demanding realms an entirely different matter.

Funniest thing is most independent Pro's don't care about the hardware, they simply want it meet their needs and be reliable. I can work across Linux, MacOS, Windows, equally the underlying hardware has to be fit for purpose and the best one wins out; Reliability, Performance, Ports and for some scalability surprisingly ever considered counts. If the 15" MBP was the best tool I'd be responding on one as the cost is inconsequential at best...

Q-6

Professionals in the office space are often issued a machine, typically Windows and it's got nothing to do with it being better other than it fitting into an IT contract for the organisation. Many professionals who work in web design / production etc that work a lot on their own machines choose the Mac. It's always been that way for some disciplines. You can look up the numbers, or remain wilfully ignorant to that.

Your observation is extremely limited, and the conclusion you draw is nothing more than your own opinion, so again, you're speaking for yourself. Not going to go in circles on that, it's easy enough to understand.

You might have had usability, performance and reliability issues (can't argue your own personal experience), but again, you speak for yourself and others can chime in and agree / disagree - but you can't speak for every professional ever.. I certainly don't, but I offer a balanced perspective that's less biased. I've read a lot of your stuff, and its not hard to conclude that you're extremely biased against Apple. I can only draw it down to personal experience, but don't mistake it for fact, kid.

There is a wide spectrum of user for the word 'pro', again, you can only speak for yourself and of your own limited observation. Keep that in mind. I've taken it on myself when I see a good discussion on here to ensure that some of our fellow forum users on the fence are reassured that the Mac isn't "junk" as it was put earlier, far from it. There's truly nothing like it. And in my opinion, unless one specialist aspect is the deal breaker for you (and there's no getting around it) then a PC might be the best choice. But for everything else, or 'the best all around experience' to me, the MBP even in its current form is class leading and should remain a top option for people deciding / finding the right tool for them.

To write it off as 'junk' and 'unreliable' just isn't the case. You know that, deep down..

 

[kazmac]

@hajime nothing new on the Acer concept D front. I even checked Acer’s YouTube channel. That’s odd. Maybe there was some delay with them?

 

[hajime]

@hajime nothing new on the Acer concept D front. I even checked Acer’s YouTube channel. That’s odd. Maybe there was some delay with them?

Thanks for checking. Even they have no idea themselves!