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Strider64

macrumors 65816
Dec 1, 2015
1,371
10,950
Suburb of Detroit
I been using Photoshop way before diving into photography. To me, an image is only "doctored" if it distorts the original message or intent. The news media may enforce stringent rules (overly so, in my opinion), but in the case of Kate Middleton, I don't believe those photos were doctored. It's likely Kate wasn't in the mood for a family portrait due to here illness/diagnose, which can become quite the endeavor with the necessary protocols and the media spotlight it attracts to her and her family. Perhaps Kate simply wanted to reassure everyone that the family was doing well, and any alterations made to the images were for reasons known only to them. 🤷‍♂️
 

Reality4711

macrumors 6502a
Aug 8, 2009
738
558
scotland
This question goes back to the AP pulling the Princess Kate photo for being altered. What counts as altering a photo. Is it color correction or true photoshopping. If a photo is not direct from the camera is it considered doctored or altered.

With AI software changing the sky entirely I can see how this will become a bigger issue in the future.
If I may? This really is an old question asked at a time when "doctoring" has been standard since the development of (no joke) of photography itself.
The creation of a copy of reality has always been in the hands of the photographers.
Development times/chemicals/paper types (glass before and before that) all have had adjustable qualities and ever since been used to present what the photographer wanted you to see.
This has advanced (if you think it has advanced) to the point when no camera is required to "take a photo" that could be considered real or not.
In conclusion, I think it depends on how old you are, your skillset and your gullibility. If you see a picture then it is up to you to decide; no-one else can do it for you because as checks improve so do methods as they always have done and will continue to.
As I wrote earlier an old question with the same answer. Photographs have always been able to lie because the photographer/camera/darkroom sequence has always lied.

PS:- I forgot the dodging and burning arguments caused in newspaper photography, especially in the USA1940-50s.

I have a friend (shock horror) of a certain age who does not posses a camera (In USA) who seems to be winning photographic competitions (reputable) using free internet available © free and an AI app on her phone. How does manipulation question become relevant to that?
 
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mtbdudex

macrumors 68030
Aug 28, 2007
2,687
4,242
SE Michigan
I have a friend (shock horror) of a certain age who does not posses a camera (In USA) who seems to be winning photographic competitions (reputable) using free internet available free and an AI app on her phone. How does manipulation question become relevant to that?

Can you share a link to 2-3 of these photographic competitions?
TIA.
 
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jagolden

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2002
1,530
1,401
Photos have been doctored eversince the first manual airbrushes came along. Even by hand painting with brushes if you were good enough. Image editing application simply made it easier and more convenient.
Unfortunately I just can’t get on the AI bandwagon. It’s lazy, and offers no true ceativity to the process. IE applications take a lot of skill, and constant upgrading of the artists skills. AI is lifeless and souless.
 

Jumpthesnark

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2022
1,032
4,475
California
What counts as altering a photo. Is it color correction or true photoshopping. If a photo is not direct from the camera is it considered doctored or altered.

You raise a question that's as related to philosophy as it is to photography.

All images are "altered" in one way or another, because no camera-lens-film/sensor combination duplicate what we see with our eyes, optic nerves and brains. All we can do is try to come close to the reality that we see, if that's what we want from a photo.

So any post processing that does not try to coax the resulting image back closer to what the photographer saw could be considered "altering." You mention color correction, which our images need but our eyes do not. That's a great example. Also, RAW images come straight out of the camera very flat, so they actually need some sharpening and contrast adjustment, just to get them close to what the photographer perceived while taking the photo. Likewise, a jpeg is using an algorithm to make a finished image, and that may not reflect reality straight out of the camera either. I have cameras that offer numerous different jpeg processes. The resulting images all look slightly different. Which one is "real?"

In the end, the photographer who is trying to make their images reflect what they saw will do what they can to overcome the limitations of the photographic tech and technique that was used, and nudge the image to reflect what they saw.

I had a deep discussion with a photojournalism professor when I was in college. All of us students had put our b/w prints from an assignment on the wall for critiques and grading. I had taken a photo on a day with a clear blue sky, and I used a medium yellow filter on my lens. He peered at that photo for a while, then challenged me. He asked if I had used a filter on the lens. I said yes. He said he didn't think that my use of a yellow filter was ethical, in a documentary photo. I reminded him that we were all shooting in b/w, and that humans don't see that way, so none of the images being graded that day reflected reality and were in that sense "unethical." Then I said that Tri-X will always overexpose a blue sky, turning it nearly white in b/w images, but that using a yellow filter will return the tonal value of a blue sky to a gray that resembles an accurate rendering of what that blue sky looked like, relative to the other elements of the scene. Therefore, I said, not using a yellow filter was unethical. He laughed and agreed with me (he was a great teacher and he really enjoyed that kind of a discussion with students).

So what is the photographer's intent? Is the intent to change what something looked like in order to move it further away from reality? Or is the intent to use gear and techniques that will result in a more honest depiction of the scene that was photographed?

What Kate Middleton did was alter a photographic representation of reality. For her (and for most people) this was a harmless improvement to a family photo. But to the Associated Press and other outlets, this was a violation of commonly accepted standards* of photojournalistic imagery, hence the reaction in the world of journalism. She may not have intended to create a journalistic work, but once the House of Windsor released the image to the press, then it became more than a family photo.

All of the above is from my point of view as a photojournalist. It's very different from what a photographic artist would say. Or a hobbyist/amateur/astrophotographer/commercial photographer/etc.

*One item in the National Press Photographers Association's code of ethics says "Editing should maintain the integrity of the photographic images' content and context. Do not manipulate images or add or alter sound in any way that can mislead viewers or misrepresent subjects." This code of ethics has been the standard of the industry for decades. Photographers' contracts for the AP, Getty, Reuters, etc. all flatly reject image manipulation.

Thanks for having this discussion! It's been fun to read the responses.
 

Reality4711

macrumors 6502a
Aug 8, 2009
738
558
scotland
Do you have a link to this photo or a discussion of it? I've never heard of this example. Thanks.
Sorry my research is mine. If it is doubted me posting it just adds to the doubts - so - no. You do your own and come up with something as near to original as you can - just asking me aint going to cut it.🦈
 

OldMacs4Me

macrumors 68020
May 4, 2018
2,196
28,809
Wild Rose And Wind Belt
So some real world examples. Left side of the diptych is as it came from the camera, and I suspect very closely matches the actual scene. However to avoid blown highlites I used an EBV of -.333. Does that make it an unacceptedly altered image?
042024o_057alt.jpg

What caught my eye was the play between light and dark. The right side emphasizes that but I may have been overly aggressive with my correction. Too doctored or just projecting a darker mood?

The other element I liked was the rich green moss. With the last frame I tried to strike a better balance between light and dark and also gave the saturation a very slight boost. If this image escapes the cull claw this will be the version I use.
042024o_057Ar.jpg
 
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Jumpthesnark

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2022
1,032
4,475
California
So some real world examples. Left side of the diptych is as it came from the camera, and I suspect very closely matches the actual scene. However to avoid blown highlites I used an EBV of -.333. Does that make it an unacceptedly altered image? View attachment 2370860
What caught my eye was the play between light and dark. The right side emphasizes that but I may have been overly aggressive with my correction. Too doctored or just projecting a darker mood?

The other element I liked was the rich green moss. With the last frame I tried to strike a better balance between light and dark and also gave the saturation a very slight boost. If this image escapes the cull claw this would be the version I use.
View attachment 2370861

Back when I was shooting chromes, I always exposed for the highlights. Some images would have the dark and "moody" look of the image you showed on the right, but I would rather let the shadows go dark and retain the highlight exposure, which slide film easily lost if overexposed. Yes, it meant more drama in the images too.

When shooting negs, I'd expose for the shadows, which is more what the image on the left looks like. The idea was, you'd have all the detail and then just bring down the highlights in the darkroom.

Now while shooting digitally, I tend to expose for highlights, like I did when shooting chromes. That's how I see. With rare exceptions, I don't expose for the shadow areas, I let them go dark.

I don't see your preferred post processing as "unacceptably altered" at all.
 
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Uofmtiger

macrumors 68020
Dec 11, 2010
2,313
1,031
Memphis
I think we are seeing more AI that didn’t actually start with a real photo, which is the bigger issue for photography.

I agree that it is in the eye of the beholder. My own perception is adding new elements to a photo via compositing or AI is doctoring. Removing elements or enhancing elements in a photo are usually normal editing. However, when that is taken to extremes, it could end up being “doctoring”.

As for HDR, I think it is often representing what was seen, even if it’s in a hyper vivid way. I see some that looks ok and some of it looks bad to my eye, but I would still put most of this on the editing side of things. Doesn’t mean I would like it, but I wouldn’t see it as the same thing as an AI app that added a huge moon behind a barn photo.
 
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