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kenoh

macrumors demi-god
Jul 18, 2008
6,506
10,850
Glasgow, UK
You all know me and my penchant for color so I am likely to stick with color film primarily. However, my daughter likes film and black and white, so I might let her use whatever camera I get sometimes, although she's likely to stick to auto mode.

Ken, that lab box allows you to develop at home? Interesting. My daughter took a darkroom class so she actually knows a bit about developing. I could turn my studio bathroom into a darkroom in theory as it has no windows and no one but me uses it, but developing and chemicals seem a bit out of reach for me, at least initially. Who knows what rabbit hole this might lead me down.
Hi Molly, yep the Lab Box is way of developing (1 at a time) film at home without needing a dark room. There are 35mm and 120 mm attachments for it and I have had success with mine so far. It is a little pricey but greatly reduces the faff. Obviously you still need a darkroom if you are going to make prints from the negs. I just use a LED panel and a View catcher with my camera on tripod to take image then invert in LR (by flipping the tone curve vertically) or PS later.


 
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mollyc

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My experience years ago is that most 35mm film couldn’t be enlarged beyond 16x20 without noticeable image degradation. Some very fine grain films with good images might go to 20x24.

As to film choice, slides have little capability to adjust once the exposure is made. Negative film can have some development adjustments made, especially with B&W. If you’re not doing your own devolving or printing then either can work. For best print quality the negative or slide should be sent to the processing facility as opposed to scanning. Why shoot film if you’re converting to digital for processing?

I'm not really looking to convert to digital to reprocess it. I mean, that's an advantage if I want to do some small cloning or slight dodge/burn, etc. I do want to preserve the look of film, but I also want to be able to share images. Friends and family, Instagram, photo groups, etc. I don't particularly want to deal with a bunch of 4x6 prints. I'd rather be able to sort through digital negatives and then compile them into an album.

Does that make sense? There are a lot of wedding film photographer nowadays, and while I have zero desire to shoot weddings, there are labs that you can send the film to and they'll send you hard copy negatives as well as scans. That is what I want.
 

mollyc

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Hi Molly, yep the Lab Box is way of developing (1 at a time) film at home without needing a dark room. There are 35mm and 120 mm attachments for it and I have had success with mine so far. It is a little pricey but greatly reduces the faff. Obviously you still need a darkroom if you are going to make prints from the negs. I just use a LED panel and a View catcher with my camera on tripod to take image then invert in LR (by flipping the tone curve vertically) or PS later.


We'll see how the first few rolls go in terms of actual shooting and exposure, etc. but I could see this being something interesting down the road, especially since I don't really want to do much in the way of printing from the negatives and would rather have digitals in the end. Thanks. ?

I have a light box we bought for my daughter's virtual art class this past fall, so I'd just need the negative holder. and the developer box of course. ?
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,321
6,398
Kentucky
So, here's the long and short of it that I hope is a good summary:

There are 3 common film processes around now. There are some historical ones, but since these are only done by specialists if at all, I'll consider them mostly irrelevant.

1. Black and white. This is the oldest and simplest of the processes. Essentially, light sensitive silver halide crystals are suspended in gelatin(this part is called the emulsion) coated on a plastic support. When film is exposed, some quantum mechanical magic happens to those crystals. To develop the film, you first use a chemical called a developer, which turns the "exposed' silver halide crystals into metallic silver that clumps together into grains. After this is done, the film is "fixed" with a solution that dissolves any remaining undeveloped silver halide.

The end result of this is called a negative. Areas where light hit the film have a high build up of silver during developing, and if illuminated from the back those areas appear dark. Areas where no light hit have no density of silver, and they appear clear. Printing paper uses this same process, so when you project this "negative" image onto light-sensitive paper and then develop it, the end result is a "positive" image.

There are a handful of B&W films out there. Kodak and Ilford are the two major players, but not the only one. Film is rated by how sensitive it is to light-the ISO setting on digital cameras is intended to replicate film. IN GENERAL, the more sensitive to light a given film stock is, the larger the grains are after developing, and the less detail the film is able to resolve. Kodak and Ilford make two general types of film. Films like Tri-X, FP4+, and HP5+ have what is called traditional grain. The Kodak TMAX line and Ilford Delta line use "tabular" grain film, called T-grain in Kodak and Delta with Ilford because the grains have a sort of triangular shape. T-grain films tend to have less apparent grain for a given speed, but have a different look that not everyone likes.

There is no real standard for B&W development. There are some common developer formulae-Kodak D76 for example is an old standard that is often copied-and a lot of the common ones like D76 or HC110 work well for about everything. Fixer is generally either sodium thiosulfate("hypo") or ammonium thiosulfate("rapid fixer"). There are a lot of specialized developers, developing techniques, and all kinds of other variables. Within a given developer, different films have different times.

I don't have labs process my B&W film because realistically most can't adjust for everything. They'll tend to use something like D76 1:1 at 68ºF for 7 minutes, which will give a useable but not optimum image with everything.

2. Color negative film is probably the single most common type of film in the world. In addition to Kodak Gold, Fuji Superia, etc you have films like the Kodak Portra line. The latter are typically fine grained, low contrast films designed to render skin tones nicely and deal with complicated lighting situations.

The current color negative process is C-41, and the chemistry, temperatures, and developing times are all standardized for repeatable results with any film at any lab.

C-41 film works a lot like B&W. Basically, first of all, even modern B&W films have layers with different color sensitivities. The silver halide salts need some "magic" to make them sensitive to light other than blue. For a color negative film, you start with that but then add things called "color couplers" which appear when the film grains are developed. C-41 developing starts off just like B&W with a developer that will turn the exposed silver halides into metallic silver. It's fixed just like B&W film to remove undeveloped silver halide, and then "bleached" to remove all silver. This leaves behind only dye clouds, and they are the complimentary color of what was developed.

3. Silide film is process E-6. It's "built" like C-41 film, but there are some technical differences as well(C-41 usually has an orange tint, called a mask, to the film base that helps with printing. E6 is clear).

The developing process is even more complicated, though. Basically, it's developed with a conventional developer, but then bleached to remove both silver and with a bleach that will remove the dye clouds associated with it. This leaves behind all the unexposed silver halides, which are then "exposed"-either chemically or by just open the film up to light. It's developed again and then bleached and fixed. The second exposure/development "reverses" it so you get a positive image. These can be projected, or you can view them directly with a loupe and light table.

The above is all overly simplified, but that's kind of the run-down on it.

B&W done at home can be the least expensive of them, but lab C-41, even in 2021, can be really inexpensive. Even last year, I had a couple of labs local to me that would do C-41 process only(for me to scan at home) for $4-5/roll.

Specific films also tend to have specific properties. TMAX100, for example, is a very sharp and high contrast film. Tri-X(one of the oldest films on the market, and IMO one of the best all around general purpose B&W films) is somewhat less contrasty than TMAX100 but has very noticeable "gritty" grain that many people like. In color negative film, Portra films are low contrast and low saturation. Ektar 100 has a lot more "pop" to its colors Portra, but is less forgiving when shooting. Among slide films, Ektachrome E100 and Provia 100F offer moderate contrast, really fine grain, and pleasantly saturated but not over the top colors.Both offer slightly different color renditions(E100 tends to be a cooler film). Velvia, which comes in both 50 and 100, for a while was the landscape photographers' go to film. Velvia is very saturated-enough so that it's sometimes called "Disneychrome", a beast to shoot for how contrasty it is, and looks like nothing else when it's done right.
 

Steven-iphone

macrumors 68000
Apr 25, 2020
1,953
16,490
United States
We'll see how the first few rolls go in terms of actual shooting and exposure, etc. but I could see this being something interesting down the road, especially since I don't really want to do much in the way of printing from the negatives and would rather have digitals in the end. Thanks.

I have a light box we bought for my daughter's virtual art class this past fall, so I'd just need the negative holder. and the developer box of course.
Molly, you may want to look at the Essential Film Holder for digitizing

The Lab Box - I have watched a few YouTube vids - it does take practice and patience.

 
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Clix Pix

macrumors Core
I'm not really looking to convert to digital to reprocess it. I mean, that's an advantage if I want to do some small cloning or slight dodge/burn, etc. I do want to preserve the look of film, but I also want to be able to share images. Friends and family, Instagram, photo groups, etc. I don't particularly want to deal with a bunch of 4x6 prints. I'd rather be able to sort through digital negatives and then compile them into an album.

Does that make sense? There are a lot of wedding film photographer nowadays, and while I have zero desire to shoot weddings, there are labs that you can send the film to and they'll send you hard copy negatives as well as scans. That is what I want.

Years ago there was a wonderful professional film and print processing lab in the Tysons area, but I suspect that they are long gone now.... I don't recall the name now, this was MANY years ago! They worked with both B&W and color and provided the photographer with a contact sheet to review the images and mark up the ones which would be most suited to then moving on to being printed. The contact sheet was very useful so that one could quickly eliminate the images which just were not going to be suitable for printing and that method, especially for color in which the photographer is not likely to be the one working with the prints, is a lot less expensive than having individual hard copies of every negative.....

Developing film at home always used to be best suited to doing just B&W, as color is a whole other animal..... One can easily develop film at home in the bathroom. Going beyond that is something else again. A real darkroom is actually more than just space used for developing film that one has shot, it is usually an actual room set up with an enlarger and trays filled with chemicals and such for actually turning the developed negatives into actual prints. Again, B&W is much easier to handle in the home darkroom than color is. Working with B&W was an integrative experience, a hands-on with the enlarger, the negative, the paper, the chemicals in the trays..... Something once experienced, always to remember with pleasure. Even though, yes, the chemicals smelled and they stained one's clothes..... There is just something magical about the experience of rocking a piece of paper with one's image that one has shot in a tray filled with some chemical and watching that print come to life......

Color? Not so much! The whole process of working with color is very different. Ugh, I remember fumbling around with Beseler Color Drums that were supposed to produce great results in color -- let's just say that they would not pass muster today!

My last experience in a darkroom was quite a few years ago now, of course, so undoubtedly things have changed in the meantime: processes, tools, devices......

Something which just occurred to me: disposal of the kinds of chemicals used for film processing and print processing may now be considered toxic and not suitable to be dumped into a residential home sewer system...... It was years ago when I was developing my own B&W film and color film and processing images, and I didn't give a thought to casually tossing the chemicals down the sinks or toilets in the townhouse in which I was living at that time. We are talking YEARS ago. Times have changed, environmental awareness has changed, etc., etc.

I suspect that this would not be permitted today. Probably it would be a good idea before going to all the effort and expense of setting up a home darkroom -- an actual one, beyond just developing B&W film in the bathroom -- to check the local jurisdiction's current policies and laws on disposal of chemical waste that is not normally used in households.
 
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mollyc

macrumors 604
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Aug 18, 2016
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Years ago there was a wonderful professional film and print processing lab in the Tysons area, but I suspect that they are long gone now.... I don't recall the name now, this was MANY years ago! They worked with both B&W and color and provided the photographer with a contact sheet to review the images and mark up the ones which would be most suited to then moving on to being printed. The contact sheet was very useful so that one could quickly eliminate the images which just were not going to be suitable for printing and that method, especially for color in which the photographer is not likely to be the one working with the prints, is a lot less expensive than having individual hard copies of every negative.....

Developing film at home always used to be best suited to doing just B&W, as color is a whole other animal..... One can easily develop film at home in the bathroom. Going beyond that is something else again. A real darkroom is actually more than just space used for developing film that one has shot, it is usually an actual room set up with an enlarger and trays filled with chemicals and such for actually turning the developed negatives into actual prints. Again, B&W is much easier to handle in the home darkroom than color is. Working with B&W was an integrative experience, a hands-on with the enlarger, the negative, the paper, the chemicals in the trays..... Something once experienced, always to remember with pleasure. Even though, yes, the chemicals smelled and they stained one's clothes..... There is just something magical about the experience of rocking a piece of paper with one's image that one has shot in a tray filled with some chemical and watching that print come to life......

Color? Not so much! The whole process of working with color is very different. Ugh, I remember fumbling around with Beseler Color Drums that were supposed to produce great results in color -- let's just say that they would not pass muster today!

My last experience in a darkroom was quite a few years ago now, of course, so undoubtedly things have changed in the meantime: processes, tools, devices......
District Camera does still do a lot of film processing, but there's no description on their website, so I don't know if they offer scans or not. I could obviously call or stop in, I'm just more of an internet researcher rather than a call on the phone-er. ?
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
The company to which I was referring that existed many years ago was specifically geared to only working with film and print processing for professional photographers. I ran a quick search for professional photography processing services in the Northern Virginia area and they didn't show up, unsurprisingly -- I would have recognized the name.

District Camera -- love 'em, they're going to see me on their doorstep again in another month or so when I'm ready to move to the Sony A1 -- is a company which is multifunctional, doing a lot and offering a lot of things in the photography market -- everything from taking a roll of film and printing Grandma's 4x5 prints from her now kind of old P&S camera to selling someone a professional-level high-end digital camera and/or lens, with lots in-between. My guess is that they probably ship out their film processing to someone else rather than doing it in-house, but I honestly don't know since I haven't had that particular need. Definitely it would be worth talking to them about it, either on the phone or in the store itself. Actually, I think you can also email them, too.....
 

mollyc

macrumors 604
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Aug 18, 2016
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No, I think they develop in house. Maybe at only one location, but I think they do it themselves.
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
As I said, I don't really know since it hasn't been something in which I've been interested, especially once I went digital...... Definitely ask them a few questions, tell them what you would like and would expect and see if they can indeed offer those services.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
64,141
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In a coffee shop.
Terrific thread.

@mollyc: Have you bought your Nikon F100 yet?

I ask merely because I used to shoot with that camera (mine was purloined, feloniously removed, stolen over a decade ago in the Caucasus).

A fantastic and wonderful camera, forgiving and excellent - with one slight caveat (and prior to that, I used to have a Nikon F75, and before that, two different Pentax cameras, the first of which was a lovely little Pentax ME Super, and the second of which was the terrific Pentax P30T. Both Pentaxes did a lot of travel with me, as did the Nikon F100.)

The only (yes, only) caveat is, that it is heavy (well, heavy for a small, short, middle aged woman); when I was a keen photographer, I used to do a lot of streetscape, or urban photography, and loved walking around cities for hours on end, especially if such cities had old or atmospheric quarters; anyway, I found the F100 uncomfortable on long exploratory prowls, - I like to walk, and explore, cities, - whereas my current Leica M6 is perfect, ergonomically extraordinarily perfect, yet still incredibly robust.
 
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mollyc

macrumors 604
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No I have not bought one yet. ? Soon though. I have been price shopping and researching serial numbers for various known problems. There is one at my local store and I know of a private seller who has reached out to me.

Plus I am coordinating with my husband. Aka “capital committee.” ?
 

mollyc

macrumors 604
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Aug 18, 2016
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I bought my F100 today!

C83A3B67-B2D0-4C01-817E-98110F270FF0.jpeg
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,321
6,398
Kentucky
Excellent! Excited to see results!

Did you grab film also?

Just as a suggestion, the easy first stop is a roll of C-41 film. You can save the good stuff for now-even Kodak Gold or Fuji Superia is good stuff. Most labs now will develop and scan either as part of their standard cost or for a little extra. I'd suggest getting prints also, though, just because they're such a change from how most people view photos now and can be a lot of fun the firest time(as an adult or more than a happy snapper).
 
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mollyc

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Excellent! Excited to see results!

Did you grab film also?

Just as a suggestion, the easy first stop is a roll of C-41 film. You can save the good stuff for now-even Kodak Gold or Fuji Superia is good stuff. Most labs now will develop and scan either as part of their standard cost or for a little extra. I'd suggest getting prints also, though, just because they're such a change from how most people view photos now and can be a lot of fun the firest time(as an adult or more than a happy snapper).
Yes I bought Portra 400 and Superia 400 on the advice of some friends in a different group and will rate them at 200 for my first go round.

I also found a different camera store even closer to me that does in house processing three days a week. I am going to take them a roll my daughter shot yesterday and see how it goes. I bought her an old waterproof Minolta for $5 so I don’t have high hopes for what she captured but we’ll see. ?
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,321
6,398
Kentucky
Yes I bought Portra 400 and Superia 400 on the advice of some friends in a different group and will rate them at 200 for my first go round.

I also found a different camera store even closer to me that does in house processing three days a week. I am going to take them a roll my daughter shot yesterday and see how it goes. I bought her an old waterproof Minolta for $5 so I don’t have high hopes for what she captured but we’ll see. ?
Good call on the +1. When I shot C-41 film, this was a regular habit of mine for richer colors.

In general, C-41 film loves overexposure. If you ever shoot Ektar 100, I do recommend it at box speed, but other emulsions can tend to give richer color when overexposed. Portra films have latitude as wide as a barn door, and I've seen comparisons over a range of +2 to -2 stops from box speed that show little difference in the final scan or print.
 

headlessmike

macrumors 65816
May 16, 2017
1,268
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Here are some nice comparisons on how over- and under exposing certain films can affect the results.


 
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mollyc

macrumors 604
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Here are some nice comparisons on how over- and under exposing certain films can affect the results.


thank you! these were really interesting to read. ?
 

Allyance

Contributor
Sep 29, 2017
2,038
7,530
East Bay, CA
Well I already know how to meter. I shoot manual all the time. ?
The quality of your photos shows your talent, if you are heading into B&W film photos, somethings else to consider. Your purchase of the Nikon made made me go dig out my old Nikon FM and assorted lenses. Don't know what I am going to do with it yet. My original Nikon F was stolen out of my car.
 
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mollyc

macrumors 604
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Aug 18, 2016
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The quality of your photos shows your talent, if you are heading into B&W film photos, somethings else to consider. Your purchase of the Nikon made made me go dig out my old Nikon FM and assorted lenses. Don't know what I am going to do with it yet. My original Nikon F was stolen out of my car.
start shooting! ?
 
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