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Technerd108

macrumors 68030
Oct 24, 2021
2,945
4,150
Buying a new pc laptop with new 15” MacBook monitor size, resolution, thickness, would cost around the same anyway. If M series allows native Linux would be a good choice for using it like 14 years instead of 7 years. Computer is so fast nowadays that I don’t see why buy a new one every 7 years or 5 years except you are into top tier gaming or video editing that kind of professional work.
That is certainly not true. Have you looked at a 15" windows laptop lately? You can find a decent one well under $1k and more like $800 and I am talking i7, glass screen with high resolution, 16gb ram and 512gb ssd.

And the point is that m series chips do NOT offer native linux support and might never.

If you are the kind of user who can get buy using the same thing for a long time with no noticeable difference to you then that is awesome. I am no one to criticize.

I just don't agree that with the pace of technology that you will enjoy using a 14 year old computer no matter how fast the tech is now. I have helped people with old computers and it is painful how slow things get after 5 or more years. Everyone is different though and has their own tolerance and patience.
 

drugdoubles

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 3, 2023
430
355
That is certainly not true. Have you looked at a 15" windows laptop lately? You can find a decent one well under $1k and more like $800 and I am talking i7, glass screen with high resolution, 16gb ram and 512gb ssd.

And the point is that m series chips do NOT offer native linux support and might never.

If you are the kind of user who can get buy using the same thing for a long time with no noticeable difference to you then that is awesome. I am no one to criticize.

I just don't agree that with the pace of technology that you will enjoy using a 14 year old computer no matter how fast the tech is now. I have helped people with old computers and it is painful how slow things get after 5 or more years. Everyone is different though and has their own tolerance and patience.


I go to US Lenovo website, search within all laptop, 4k with at least 15” sceeen, cheapest one is $1639 usd.
 

MacProFCP

Contributor
Jun 14, 2007
1,220
2,932
Michigan
1. Apple doesn’t build machines to run others OSs. Yes, they had Boot Camp, which was cool, but Apple expects their customers to use Max OS.

2. Mac OS market share keep rising and is now over 30% in the US and over 20% worldwide. Linux is a niche product at under 2% and barely 3% respectively.


4. Microsoft is very interested in running on Arm. I expect Microsoft will developer their own Arm based processors within 5 years.
 
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bogdanw

macrumors 603
Mar 10, 2009
5,710
2,748
4. Microsoft is very interested in running on Arm. I expect Microsoft will developer their own Arm based processors within 5 years.
Running on ARM since 2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_(2012_tablet) :)
and still running https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/w...windows-11-22h2-supported-qualcomm-processors
The third processor developed with Qualcomm - Microsoft SQ3 with Neural Processing Unit
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/business/surface-pro-9#techspec
 
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unrigestered

Suspended
Jun 17, 2022
879
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who knows, maybe the EU will mandate that computers (or better their OS) will need to be supported for at least 10 + x years.
 

Arctic Moose

macrumors 65816
Jun 22, 2017
1,467
1,938
Gothenburg, Sweden
Buying a new pc laptop with new 15” MacBook monitor size, resolution, thickness, would cost around the same anyway. If M series allows native Linux would be a good choice for using it like 14 years instead of 7 years. Computer is so fast nowadays that I don’t see why buy a new one every 7 years or 5 years except you are into top tier gaming or video editing that kind of professional work.
Yeah, but then you will need to run Windows, Linux, *BSD or some other alternative that is not macOS.

Do you not feel that the features and characteristics of Apple's hardware or the ability to run macOS are worth the trade-off? Go ahead and get a PC laptop instead. This isn't difficult.

Me, personally? I'd rather chop off my little finger than use a different desktop operating system, so I'll happily replace my hardware at least every five years. Besides, during any previous five year period Apple has always introduced some new capability or improvement that I want, and I do not expect that to stop.

(On top of that, as previously mentioned, not being able to run the latest OS release does not automatically make your computer useless. My children are using Macs from 2010 that fulfill their current needs.)
 
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drugdoubles

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 3, 2023
430
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The first i7 4 cores 8 threads was released in 2008. Even after 15 years now you cannot feel the difference between this old i7 and latest crazy many cores retail cpu if you don’t get into top tier gaming or video editing that kind of professional stuff.
 

okkibs

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2022
915
872
Computer is so fast nowadays that I don’t see why buy a new one every 7 years or 5 years except you are into top tier gaming or video editing that kind of professional work.
I had a 2015 MBP, it received Monterey in 2021 and until actually just a week ago I was still on Monterey on a newer Mac. So that Mac works perfectly well with MacOS after a full 8 years have passed. And for non-professional use it will still be fine on Monterey for another few years.

So you can easily get a decade out of a Mac without having to replace it with Linux/Windows that has mediocre hardware support (shortened battery life, worse trackpad support, worse display support, possibly no proper support for XDR/HDR).

To say this in your words: I don't see why Macs are a problem if you don't buy a new one every 5 or 7 years. They don't implode when software support ends. Do they last 15 years? No, new software won't install anymore. But do they last 10 years? Yes they do, and that is honestly plenty.

In fact, Macbooks have been the longest lasting laptops I had, even with expensive high-end carbon housing business laptops I had them literally fall apart after a couple years (and after the warranty expired of course).
 

drugdoubles

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 3, 2023
430
355
I had a 2015 MBP, it received Monterey in 2021 and until actually just a week ago I was still on Monterey on a newer Mac. So that Mac works perfectly well with MacOS after a full 8 years have passed. And for non-professional use it will still be fine on Monterey for another few years.

So you can easily get a decade out of a Mac without having to replace it with Linux/Windows that has mediocre hardware support (shortened battery life, worse trackpad support, worse display support, possibly no proper support for XDR/HDR).

To say this in your words: I don't see why Macs are a problem if you don't buy a new one every 5 or 7 years. They don't implode when software support ends. Do they last 15 years? No, new software won't install anymore. But do they last 10 years? Yes they do, and that is honestly plenty.

In fact, Macbooks have been the longest lasting laptops I had, even with expensive high-end carbon housing business laptops I had them literally fall apart after a couple years (and after the warranty expired of course).

Outdated OS without update has serious security issues except you don’t event connect it to internet. Some programs cannot even install or run in outdated OS.
 

iHorseHead

macrumors 65816
Jan 1, 2021
1,307
1,575
In fact, Macbooks have been the longest lasting laptops
I disagree. I have a Dell laptop from 2007 and it still works. My brother has some HP laptop from 2003 and it still works. I don't remember what kind of a laptop my father had but it still works. It's from 2005 if I recall correctly.

Software wise PCs are much more supported than Macs. If you bought a MacBook in 2009 you'd be out of luck now, but if you bought a PC back in 2009 you'd be most likely running Windows 10 on it. Besides, in my country PCs are a lot better spaced and cheaper than MacBooks. MacBook Air 15" costs $2100 over here. For that money I even found some DREAMMACHINE RT3080Ti-15PL52 15.6" laptop, which I've never heard of before, but it has 64GB of RAM and it's as expensive as a MacBook Air 15" 8GB of RAM.

I absolutely disagree with the fact that MacBooks are the longest lasting laptops, even though I love Macs and I love my MacBook Air, but your statement is simply not true. My first MacBook got 3 OS upgrades only, which was disappointing. Nowadays it's unusable, pretty much, while you can still use some older windows laptops. Windows 7 is much better supported than Snow Leopard.
 

drugdoubles

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 3, 2023
430
355
I disagree. I have a Dell laptop from 2007 and it still works. My brother has some HP laptop from 2003 and it still works. I don't remember what kind of a laptop my father had but it still works. It's from 2005 if I recall correctly.

Software wise PCs are much more supported than Macs. If you bought a MacBook in 2009 you'd be out of luck now, but if you bought a PC back in 2009 you'd be most likely running Windows 10 on it. Besides, in my country PCs are a lot better spaced and cheaper than MacBooks. MacBook Air 15" costs $2100 over here. For that money I even found some DREAMMACHINE RT3080Ti-15PL52 15.6" laptop, which I've never heard of before, but it has 64GB of RAM and it's as expensive as a MacBook Air 15" 8GB of RAM.

I absolutely disagree with the fact that MacBooks are the longest lasting laptops, even though I love Macs and I love my MacBook Air, but your statement is simply not true. My first MacBook got 3 OS upgrades only, which was disappointing. Nowadays it's unusable, pretty much, while you can still use some older windows laptops. Windows 7 is much better supported than Snow Leopard.

Most of the pc laptop can still run Windows 11 with some manual steps. Windows 10 and 11 actual hardware requirements basically is the same.

MacBook battery replacement officially is crazy expensive, manually switch a new battery is pretty hard. Most of the pc laptop is much easier and cheaper especially older kind with switchable battery slot.
 
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unrigestered

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Jun 17, 2022
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i can't speak for "high end" laptops, as slim will always be more problematic and / or fragile, but regarding normal laptops or desktops, even budget ones, i've never had problems with anything. ever. even 30+ years old stuff is still working beautifully. don't have my very first systems from the 70's anymore though, which might actually indeed not work anymore
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,563
43,544
Most of the pc laptop can still run Windows 11 with some manual steps.
MS artificially added the constraints and I'll say the majority of computer owners who are on windows 10 will not likely trying to get around the issues. They'll either sit on windows 10 and not upgrade or just buy a new PC.
 
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drugdoubles

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 3, 2023
430
355
MS artificially added the constraints and I'll say the majority of computer owners who are on windows 10 will not likely trying to get around the issues. They'll either sit on windows 10 and not upgrade or just buy a new PC.

I agree, but I am not a normal retail user.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,563
43,544
In fact, Macbooks have been the longest lasting laptops I had,
The issue is Apple stops supporting them with updates fairly quickly and plops them into legacy/obsolete rather fast so you can't ever get them repaired. Those butterfly keyboard owners are pretty much screwed as 2016 laptops are at the 7 year mark and many of those keyboards will fail. Its not like Apple replaced them with a keyboard that is not flawed, they replaced them with the same flawed design.

Anyways with no updates from apple, you're running the risk of significant security updates. Its not a question can your use a Mac for 10 years, is really should you?


I agree, but I am not a normal retail user.
That's my point, its a solution that most people won't leverage.
 
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drugdoubles

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 3, 2023
430
355
i can't speak for "high end" laptops, as slim will always be more problematic and / or fragile, but regarding normal laptops or desktops, even budget ones, i've never had problems with anything. ever. even 30+ years old stuff is still working beautifully. don't have my very first systems from the 70's anymore though, which might actually indeed not work anymore

30+ years old machine works just fine with Linux is not surprised at all.
 

drugdoubles

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 3, 2023
430
355
The issue is Apple stops supporting them with updates fairly quickly and plops them into legacy/obsolete rather fast so you can't ever get them repaired. Those butterfly keyboard owners are pretty much screwed as 2016 laptops are at the 7 year mark and many of those keyboards will fail. Its not like Apple replaced them with a keyboard that is not flawed, they replaced them with the same flawed design.

Anyways with no updates from apple, you're running the risk of significant security updates. Its not a question can your use a Mac for 10 years, is really should you?



That's my point, its a solution that most people won't leverage.

Yes, and intel based MacBook still can run Linux, M series after 5 to 7 years is just dead.
 

unrigestered

Suspended
Jun 17, 2022
879
840
They’re also working with the Amiga OS or DOS no problems. And of course my consoles on their dedicated OS.
I just find it baffling when people are trying to boast: “ wowserz, my superior Mac lasted me a whopping 10 years.“ some even add something like “i just needed to replace the logic board three times and my screen just twice“, while this actually is nothing out of the ordinary at all, unless you were extremely unlucky before.
 

iHorseHead

macrumors 65816
Jan 1, 2021
1,307
1,575
Yes, and intel based MacBook still can run Linux, M series after 5 to 7 years is just dead.
Well, to be fair M series is still pretty new.
Also, my old MacBook Pro mid 2010 was supported for 10 years from Snow Leopard to High Sierra, which received it's last update on 2020.
I'm betting there will be other distros for M1 Macs pretty soon.

Also, from what I've noticed is that Ubuntu for example is much slower on many PCs than Windows 10 and uses more resources. The main issue with Macs nowadays is the fact that you really can't upgrade them or repair them.
 

okkibs

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2022
915
872
The issue is Apple stops supporting them with updates fairly quickly and plops them into legacy/obsolete rather fast so you can't ever get them repaired.
The thread is about software/OS support, not about the hardware. Other than the solid design of the carbon x1 Thinkpad I would take a butterfly Mac over the trash that's Probooks, Dells and so on any day. Well, with the exception of the 12" Macbook of course which was truly terrible hardware and quality. I've had plenty Windows laptops, I had good reasons to switch to Macbooks. Lenovo is the only laptop manufacturer other than Apple that I'd even bother trying these days. And unless you buy their most high-end device, the rest of the lineup is underwhelming.

I had a 2016 MBP as well that had its share of issues yet it was taken care of well enough: Flexgate a couple years in, free repair outside warranty, issue did not come up again and still works. Battery works, the T keycap broke off, replaced it with a 3rd party one, otherwise no keyboard issues, one USB-C port is loose which was common for the early Apple USB-C ports, so the device only has one left. Other than that port the device works just fine 7 years down the road.

And for one of the worst laptops Apple ever made, if I had just the choice between that butterfly Macbook and a Windows laptop, I'd choose that Mac again. Back then the Thinkpads weren't that interesting that I'd seriously consider them, I had a T420 before that and it was just fine, but in no way equal to the Retina Macbooks of the time. Worse housing compared to unibody, much, much worse display.

Anyways with no updates from apple, you're running the risk of significant security updates. Its not a question can your use a Mac for 10 years, is really should you?
OP said non-professional use. You can do light office work and check your e-mails and calendar just fine on a 8+ year old Mac running Big Sur or Monterey, and watch some Youtube. What security issue exactly are you expecting? You will indeed lose out on XProtect definition updates, so if you are someone who downloads many new apps from random websites you are at risk of installing malware for sure. But the reality is that even the latest MacOS doesn't recognize them all, so if you enter your admin password to install some new random app you are still at risk of malware infection with the latest MacOS today.

Even if the risk is a bit lower, running the latest OS doesn't help much in compensating for such bad security habits. If there is a scam that tries to get the user to enter their admin password willingly to run malware (which is one of the most common ways that MacOS users get malware on their Macs!) MacOS doesn't stand in the way.

Many of the critical flaws that get patched regularly with MacOS are not actually affecting most users if you look closely. For example, most of them require physical access to the computer. And if an attacker has physical access to your Mac then they're probably robbing your place and you got bigger things to worry about than OS updates.

Again, we are not talking about running your business off a 10 year old device out of support or anything like that, storing confidential customer data and whatnot. That would be an entirely different beast and obviously you can't do that on such an old device and still comply with security best practices and laws/regulations.

Installing Linux doesn't actually make the Mac much safer than MacOS, the only difference is that a lot of the malware out there isn't programmed to run on Linux, that's the only benefit it has. For non-technical users Linux is actually not that benefitial, Linux expects you to know what you are doing if you have an admin account. It will happily let you rm -rf the linux OS itself if you want to do that. In that sense even an old Monterey that boots of an immutable OS snapshot has more safeguards in place than the latest Linux.

Yes, and intel based MacBook still can run Linux, M series after 5 to 7 years is just dead.
Unless you have a crystal ball you cannot know how long these Macs will run the latest apps. Again, the 2015 MB runs the latest apps on Monterey in 2023. And it will continue to run these apps for a couple more years, giving it a lifespan of 10 years and for non-professional use you can keep using it for 2-3 additional years before the software really gets out of date. And even then, even after 12-13 years, that Mac can still do simple tasks like managing e-mails, calenders, and light Office work.

If that's your definition of a Mac that's "dead" then sure, super dead. Runs all the latest apps on the fantastic retina display but clearly it's "dead".
 

okkibs

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2022
915
872
This means that a whole bunch of Macs released in 2013, ten years ago, just got a patch.
Apple doesn't promise to patch all holes though, so you are right that they got a patch, but whether that is all the patches those Macs would have needed, nobody can tell. In any case it's not really an issue because many urgent security issues require the attacker to have physical access to the computer in the first place, or it's a more involved attack to target individuals that you don't use for the masses. So "turning off the internet" isn't necessary, it's not like old computers just randomly start downloading malware when they're online.

Nobody so far came up with a single one of these "serious security issues" that are so serious that you shouldn't connect your Mac to the internet. Though in general of course it is better to be up to date with patching and if the device is used for anything important like running a business it would be ridiculous to do that with an out-of-date system. Obviously I am not saying that anyone should turn off updates or totally ignore the risk.
 
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jido

macrumors 6502
Oct 11, 2010
274
132
You can boot M series Macs with Asahi Linux, and there’ll probably be other distros soon. If you are worried about no longer getting software updates in 10 years don’t be.
 

drugdoubles

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 3, 2023
430
355
You can boot M series Macs with Asahi Linux, and there’ll probably be other distros soon. If you are worried about no longer getting software updates in 10 years don’t be.

Asahi Linux is not closed to be a fully functional distro yet.
 

Mikael H

macrumors 6502a
Sep 3, 2014
864
538
In terms of using Linux on a Mac, why would you want to do something like that-ever?
As has been mentioned, there’s rarely anything really wrong with older premium hardware. I for sure will stick an open operating system on a Mac that no longer receives updates for as long as the hardware is at all viable for one of my use cases. That doesn’t mean it’ll be my daily driver, but it’ll fill some function other than taking up space in a landfill.
 
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