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Do you have Time Machine HD failures with Big Sur 11.5.2?
- Thread starter vett93
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Update from my experiment #2:
CCC backup completed
Got a Finder error message re improperly ejecting the HDD, plugged back in
FirstAid passes
observation: TM backup for the same amount of data (just under 3TB) was quite a bit faster than CCC
next experiment will be to erase/reformat with HFS+ and CCC
CCC backup completed
Got a Finder error message re improperly ejecting the HDD, plugged back in
FirstAid passes
observation: TM backup for the same amount of data (just under 3TB) was quite a bit faster than CCC
next experiment will be to erase/reformat with HFS+ and CCC
Can you use Disk Utility to check your backup drive's format? I formatted it as HFS+ as well. But after a TM backup, it became APFS.
It’s still HFS+. I’l post a screenshot when I get back to my computer. A drive doesn’t just change format, you have to first initiate and allow it to happen.
Can you use Disk Utility First Aid to verify again on the Seagate HDD? In my experiments, some disks would pass first but only fail again later on.While you 'can' format a traditional HDD to APFS, it is much better suited to SSD drives, as that was Apple's original intention. The way the 2 types of drives read/write and handle data is in fact vastly different.
I've read a few explanations as to why APFS on an HDD is not the best idea since sliced bread, with any version of macOS since it (APFS) came out with High Sierra. Here's one:
APFS (Apple File System) May Not Be a Good Choice for All Disk Types
APFS (Apple File System) improves performance on SSDs but might not work for all your drives. Find out which disks are candidates for APFS.www.lifewire.com
View attachment 1824837
But to answer the original question; No TM backup disk problems on Big Sur 11.5.2, on an M1 Air.
However, I have a Samsung SSD T7 external formatted to APFS which contains my 700GB / 105k image Photos library, it is lightning fast, no problems. Then using Time Machine, I back that drive up to my regular 5TB Seagate HDD which is formatted mac os journaled (HFS+). Again, no problems.
This is my Seagate 5TB HDD, format HFS+:
This is my external Samsung T7 SSD, format APFS:
I have 2 external SSD drives and they both pass First Aid check reliably. It is only HDDs that fail. I think it is the particular release of APFS and HDD that don't work well.
What OS version were you on when you first started using that drive for TM? I've read in some posts that if you come from pre-Big Sur (meaning you have used the particular HDD for TM before upgrading to Big Sur) it does not change the format.
IF you start using a disk for the first time for TM when on Big Sur, TM WILL change the format to APFS case-sensitive. I've seen that a few times while I was texting out my HDDs
I had stepped away from the iMac for a couple hours, so just ran FirstAid again on that drive - FAILURE! and funny enough, the drive does not show up in Finder anymore and there was no Finder error message popping up ...
Plugging it back in, FirstAid PASS (running 3 tests on the disk, container and partition)
I will keep the HDD plugged in for now, have some more things to do and will come back to the iMac in an hour or 2 and repeat above.
And in Energy Saver, put HDD to sleep when possible is NOT checked ...
coming back about another 1.5 hrs later and scenario described above repeats itself
changing my plan and will now attach this drive to my M1 MBA running the latest Monterey beta and perform TM backup
Plugged HDD into MBA and erased/formatted with HFS+
Started TM
Ran into a known beta issue, rebooted, and then TM completed
Ran FirstAid: Pass on the disk, Pass on the container, Fail on the partition
Eject drive, plug back in, run FirstAid: Pass, Fail, Fail
So, Monterey has not (yet) fixed anything regarding this issue ...
At this point I'm not sure I want to spend anymore time on this issue.
I changed my backup strategy to just NOT use TM anymore. I have 2 SSDs connected permanently for CCC backup #1, 2 separate HDDs for CCC backup # 2 and 3 and I've uploaded my document folder and my photos to OneDrive.
Thanks for testing, jz. It is disappointing that Apple cannot get something this basic done reliably. I also use Cloud backup for my documents and photos. My photography hobby is what keeps me using Mac computers. Otherwise, I'd switch to Linux in a heartbeat.
well, to be fair, it does not seem to be a widespread problem given your survey results and the responses. At the same token, how many folks run FirstAid on a somewhat regular basis or just out of curiosity? when there are no problems, I wouldn't ...
I wouldn't mind working with Apple to get down to the bottom of this, just not sure if that's possible with the support structure in place (thru a senior advisor vs engineering direct), and, to be honest what's to gain?
Me personally, I doubt I'll be using spinners in a couple years if even that long. SSD Pricing is in the beginnings to come down again (and of course so will HDDs), so my eyes will monitor SSD pricing ...
I just checked my two minis, both new in February.
1. My M1 has usb HD, split 3 ways, one partition used for TM, one for overflow data, etc... This disk is all HFS+ drive.
2. My i5 has two way split usb HD, all APFS, TM seems to work, but TM partition does not pass through FirstAid and reports error 65.
details:
My M1 TM was setup using HD partitioned on old mini/Catalina it was replacing. Big Sur did not change the format, may be since there are the other partitions?
My i5 HD was setup on Big Sur i5 and I may have add the second partition later for specific folder which needs to be backed up manually...
1. My M1 has usb HD, split 3 ways, one partition used for TM, one for overflow data, etc... This disk is all HFS+ drive.
2. My i5 has two way split usb HD, all APFS, TM seems to work, but TM partition does not pass through FirstAid and reports error 65.
details:
My M1 TM was setup using HD partitioned on old mini/Catalina it was replacing. Big Sur did not change the format, may be since there are the other partitions?
My i5 HD was setup on Big Sur i5 and I may have add the second partition later for specific folder which needs to be backed up manually...
You know what, (when I was at home) I think I actually used my 2011 MBP running High Sierra to format the drive to HFS+, I then made a backup of that computer on that drive. I then took that drive, connected it to my brand new Big Sur M1 (never upgraded the OS on that), and made a backup of my new machine. The drive stayed HFS+.
However, I'm not at home right now, I'm 2000km away on holiday, and have only 1 TM HDD drive with me. When I get home in a few months, I have 3 other TM HDD's there. If I remember, and if anyone still cares to know, I'll check those drives. I might even format one and will attempt a brand new backup with my Big Sur M1 Air, without ever connecting it to my old 2011 machine.
I've been doing some research, and yes, it would seem Apple are changing things faster than I, and a lot of people can keep track of. It looks like if you start a brand new backup with a Big Sur Mac, on any type of drive, it 'will' format it to APFS. What is not clear is exactly how that will happen. Will Time Machine automatically do the formatting? Will Disk Utility magically open and do the formatting? Do you have any kind of choice? I honestly don't see why you can't choose, because if I can backup a Big Sur Mac to a HDD using HFS+, why can't anyone, even with a brand new backup.
The below article is from 2017, round about when APFS first came out, so I'm not sure if it's still relevant today, but it could still be interesting and might explain why using APFS on a HDD is maybe still not the best idea. It's very technical.
Using APFS On HDDs ... And Why You Might Not Want To
After 16 months of using and testing APFS—Apple's new file system—I’ve come to the conclusion that you probably don’t want to use it on HDDs (disks with rotating platters).
eshop.macsales.com
Moral of the story: I would suggest using only HFS+ on HDD's. While APFS will initially work on a HDD, the article above explains why after a period of time it may well end up slowing your drive down, and even leading to errors like the ones in this thread.
I just attempted to erase my current Time Machine Seagate HDD, with my Big Sur M1. It defaulted to APFS, and it would have formatted it to that, but there was a drop down menu that offered HFS+, and ExFAT etc. I fail to see how/why Time Machine would just switch that to APFS when, to be bluntly honest, it doesn't have to.
Big Sur Macs can and do backup to HFS+ HDD's, a reliable combination that has been working fine for some 30 years now. I fail to see how backing up with Time Machine to an APFS drive is of any extra benefit. I backed up 1.3TB of data on one external formatted to HFS+ on this Time Machine external also formatted to HFS+, with my M1 Air. Took just 4 hours.
I've also run a few more 1st aid tests, and run some more backups. No problems with my backup drive whatsoever.
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Good to know! I only formatted this HDD as APFS to use the new and faster snapshot-based Time Machine system. I'll surely leave my other HDDs formatted in HFS.
I'm slowly weeding out HDDs generally, but I can't quite stomach the price of a 5TB SSD to run Time Machine backups
Over the years I've had plenty of problems with HFS+ formatted Time Machine drives -- sometimes with the OS just telling you it straight up needs to start over. From what I've read (mostly here) the new system is less likely to get corrupted over time.
That said, if it's really just not working well with HDDs that's quite a problem, as they're good, affordable backup drives.
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but I can't quite stomach the price of a 5TB SSD to run Time Machine backups
Me neither.
A faster laptop with better battery life in the form of an M1 Air, best money I ever spent, but my Time Machine speed requirements have not changed in 10 years since I got my first Mac.
HDD's are so cheap compared to SSD's. The wife and I have a few for Time Machine, just in case, and I still haven't spent what SSD's of the same total capacity would cost. Right now I have a total of 25TB storage for Time Machine on HDD's. How much would that cost on SSD's? Rhetorical question....
Sure, if someone wants to try sell me APFS on an SSD for Time Machine, go right ahead
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Maybe not today, but the prices have been dropping quite a bit. For an "average" user who only has 1-2 TB of stuff, a basic external SSD is no longer the massive expenditure it once was. I'm using a super basic one (a 1 TB SATA SSD in a cheap USB enclosure) to back up my 256 GB MacBook Air and it truly flies through the task. Overkill, probably, but eventually these will get cheap enough to replace all the HDDs.Sure, if someone wants to try sell me APFS on an SSD for Time Machine, go right ahead
Dropping, sure, but not fast enough. I would rather have multiple TM backups on cheaper HDD's which are then kept in separate locations than 1 SSD backup in the same location as my computer.
As I mentioned earlier, where we did spring for an SSD was for a Samsung T7 - 2TB, for €280, for a huge Photos library that now flies, which was otherwise unusable on a regular HDD. Time Machine can always run in the background, or while I sleep, so quite frankly, it can take as long as it likes, just as long as it finishes, which it always does. Sometimes old school is still cool.
I believe this to be a bug in the GUI version of Disk Utility 20.1 (1715.2). I get similar failures with File System Check exit code is 65. And File system verify or repair failed : (-69845).
Time Machine has not given me any problems, no failed backups and no ejected disks so I have no reason to believe the file system is corrupt on my Time Machine backup drive.
Command line version of diskutility works fine and reports no errors on the disk:
diskutil verifyVolume /Volumes/myTMdrive
OP I think you are having a separate issue with USB bus crashing under heavy load. The GUI version of Disk Utility is reporting issues but I think unrelated to the USB issues you are having.
You know what, (when I was at home) I think I actually used my 2011 MBP running High Sierra to format the drive to HFS+, I then made a backup of that computer on that drive. I then took that drive, connected it to my brand new Big Sur M1 (never upgraded the OS on that), and made a backup of my new machine. The drive stayed HFS+.
View attachment 1825150
However, I'm not at home right now, I'm 2000km away on holiday, and have only 1 TM HDD drive with me. When I get home in a few months, I have 3 other TM HDD's there. If I remember, and if anyone still cares to know, I'll check those drives. I might even format one and will attempt a brand new backup with my Big Sur M1 Air, without ever connecting it to my old 2011 machine.
I've been doing some research, and yes, it would seem Apple are changing things faster than I, and a lot of people can keep track of. It looks like if you start a brand new backup with a Big Sur Mac, on any type of drive, it 'will' format it to APFS. What is not clear is exactly how that will happen. Will Time Machine automatically do the formatting? Will Disk Utility magically open and do the formatting? Do you have any kind of choice? I honestly don't see why you can't choose, because if I can backup a Big Sur Mac to a HDD using HFS+, why can't anyone, even with a brand new backup.
The below article is from 2017, round about when APFS first came out, so I'm not sure if it's still relevant today, but it could still be interesting and might explain why using APFS on a HDD is maybe still not the best idea. It's very technical.
Using APFS On HDDs ... And Why You Might Not Want To
After 16 months of using and testing APFS—Apple's new file system—I’ve come to the conclusion that you probably don’t want to use it on HDDs (disks with rotating platters).
Moral of the story: I would suggest using only HFS+ on HDD's. While APFS will initially work on a HDD, the article above explains why after a period of time it may well end up slowing your drive down, and even leading to errors like the ones in this thread.
I just attempted to erase my current Time Machine Seagate HDD, with my Big Sur M1. It defaulted to APFS, and it would have formatted it to that, but there was a drop down menu that offered HFS+, and ExFAT etc. I fail to see how/why Time Machine would just switch that to APFS when, to be bluntly honest, it doesn't have to.
Big Sur Macs can and do backup to HFS+ HDD's, a reliable combination that has been working fine for some 30 years now. I fail to see how backing up with Time Machine to an APFS drive is of any extra benefit. I backed up 1.3TB of data on one external formatted to HFS+ on this Time Machine external also formatted to HFS+, with my M1 Air. Took just 4 hours.
I've also run a few more 1st aid tests, and run some more backups. No problems with my backup drive whatsoever.
View attachment 1825149
Hi E,
Just read your post - thanks so much for your time advising others on this!
I was all set to try reformatting the ext HDD to APFS - will leave it the hell alone with the HFS+ setting.
I'm not into using the latest tech. Especially with backups.
Rock solid old tech = the best tech to use for this!
Regards
Martin
Hello, I am on:
Big Sur 11.5.2
MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Late 2013)
2.6 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5
8 GB 1600 MHz DDR3
500ssd Internal
Intel Iris 1536 MB
I have 2 external drives connected;
an 8TB that contains most of my files and passes First Aid with no problems,
a 16TB (brand new) that runs Time Machine to backup the 8TB drive. It is running perfectly yet it fails First Aid every time.
I was going to call Seagate to arrange a return but first Googled the problem to see if others are experiencing the same. It seems they are and I don't know what to make of it. I considered erasing the 16TB drive and taking it off Time Machine to run First Aid again without it but I'd rather not do all that if I don't have to.
Other people may be calling Seagate for returns because of the same problem so maybe Seagate can supply an answer! 800-732-4283. It's Saturday evening so I'll try them next week.
Big Sur 11.5.2
MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Late 2013)
2.6 GHz Dual-Core Intel Core i5
8 GB 1600 MHz DDR3
500ssd Internal
Intel Iris 1536 MB
I have 2 external drives connected;
an 8TB that contains most of my files and passes First Aid with no problems,
a 16TB (brand new) that runs Time Machine to backup the 8TB drive. It is running perfectly yet it fails First Aid every time.
I was going to call Seagate to arrange a return but first Googled the problem to see if others are experiencing the same. It seems they are and I don't know what to make of it. I considered erasing the 16TB drive and taking it off Time Machine to run First Aid again without it but I'd rather not do all that if I don't have to.
Other people may be calling Seagate for returns because of the same problem so maybe Seagate can supply an answer! 800-732-4283. It's Saturday evening so I'll try them next week.
I've encountered the APFS case sensitive time machine reformat myself, but only on Big Sur, and only on HDD's.