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BKDad

macrumors regular
May 16, 2011
186
164
This triggered a flashback <left eye twitches>. At the risk of being pedantic (or the certainty)... Once upon a time, when Pluto was still a planet, I had a problem like this. The issue turned out to be "Calculate Folder Sizes" in Finder preferences, which caused savage latency in large, deeply nested, directories. The setting was toggled on when I did an OS update, and took me hours to recognize.

That sounds like a possibility, except... I don't see that option in Finder preferences for Ventura. (Somebody, please show me wrong.) I even checked the plist file for Finder. It may be set on by default or just be fixed on entirely.

Somebody - maybe the same Somebody as above - might have a path through Terminal to adjust this.
 

ipaqrat

macrumors 6502
Mar 28, 2017
290
311
With a finder window open, under View Menu > Show View Options > Calculate All Sizes.

Seems like a bit of a reach, given how different MacHFS+ is from previous AFS (Apple file system). But at least you can eliminate it from the puzzle quick.
 

svenmany

macrumors demi-god
Jun 19, 2011
2,037
1,319
With a finder window open, under View Menu > Show View Options > Calculate All Sizes.

Seems like a bit of a reach, given how different MacHFS+ is from previous AFS (Apple file system). But at least you can eliminate it from the puzzle quick.

Note that the option is only available in list view.
 
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titaniumdoughnu

macrumors newbie
Feb 23, 2011
25
15
Calculate All Sizes seems to be set per folder, and it is off on all folders in question that I checked. Now, could there be a bug under the surface that is treating that as on? Perhaps!
 

BKDad

macrumors regular
May 16, 2011
186
164
Calculate All Sizes seems to be set per folder, and it is off on all folders in question that I checked. Now, could there be a bug under the surface that is treating that as on? Perhaps!

My mistake was not being in List view. But, like you, it was checked to be off in the folder I tried.
 

ipaqrat

macrumors 6502
Mar 28, 2017
290
311
Maybe Apple is hashing every file in real time, checking for reverse engineered schematics, chip-pairing software, CSAM, or something... no paranoia here (thesearenotthedroidsyourelookingformovealong)
 
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ipaqrat

macrumors 6502
Mar 28, 2017
290
311
"Calculate All Sizes" when off makes no difference.
Well, that's sorta good news. Back in the day, that issue was rooted in mechanical hard drive read speed, and I can't recall if AFS was a journaling file system like NTFS, like the one I still have in my 10 year old windows machine <left eye twitches>.

Speaking of which, sorry if I missed it, but what did disk utilities have to say about the version and health of the file system? Have you tried pumping the payload to a new drive, just to see if there's some sort of fragmentation or catalog corruption? I'm sure it's not a "FAT" formatted disk, but by any name, there is still a file allocation table in there somewhere.
 

BKDad

macrumors regular
May 16, 2011
186
164
Well, that's sorta good news. Back in the day, that issue was rooted in mechanical hard drive read speed, and I can't recall if AFS was a journaling file system like NTFS, like the one I still have in my 10 year old windows machine <left eye twitches>.

Speaking of which, sorry if I missed it, but what did disk utilities have to say about the version and health of the file system? Have you tried pumping the payload to a new drive, just to see if there's some sort of fragmentation or catalog corruption? I'm sure it's not a "FAT" formatted disk, but by any name, there is still a file allocation table in there somewhere.

I am not the original poster, but I have observed the exact same problem as she or he did. Here is my history and set-up.

Up until early July of this year, I was using a 2015 27" iMac with an i7 processor, a 1Tb internal SSD, and lots of memory. This was attached to two external storage peripherals via Thunderbolt. One was a 4 bay RAID drive using spinning hard drives. The system was formatted as HFS+ in three volumes. The other was a dock that allowed me to plug in nude SAT drives, either 2.5" or 3.5" size formats. I used the latter for a pair of SSDs used for Time Machine backups (they get swapped every week or when macOS gives me the 10 day reminder) and to back up not only the iMac internal SSD with Carbon Copy Cloner onto an SSD but also the RAID system onto separate drives for each RAID volume.

With that system, when I looked at one of the larger folders on the RAID drive through a Finder window, the content population was almost instantaneous. Same for when I wanted to Save As or Export as PDF from Safari. No complaints at all from me. Large meaning perhaps 1500 folder items.

Then, I replaced the iMac with an M2 Mac Studio. Lots of memory, and the same 1 Tb size internal SSD. This came with Ventura.

Using the same RAID system connected the same way it can now take up to 20 seconds to show large Finder window contents. Same effect when using Save As and Export to PDF from Safari.

At first, I thought it was because the new system was taking time to index everything. Nope. Same after a week.

Next, I suspected the RAID system. So, I tried plugging one of back-up stand alone volumes into the dock and opening a large folder in a Finder window. Same exact problem.

I even tried wiping the RAID system and starting from scratch using the back-up volumes. No change.

Since external applications like Carbon Copy Cloner can copy files at really high speed, I don't think it's a hardware problem.

The experiment of adding the large folder to the Dock and opening it from there gave me an almost instant content listing. That just further shows that it's not the hardware.

I think this shows that there was a significant change made in how external drives are handled by macOS through the Finder. Not a bug - a design change. I thought it might be for security reasons, but the folder in the Dock experiment kinda invalidates that thought. Then I considered that maybe it's an HFS+ versus APFS issue. Again, the folder in the Dock experiment nullifies that.

I don't think that Apple is much interested in revisiting decisions they made in their process based on customer wishes. Their history of late is that they only respond to problems that might trigger warranty repairs (iPhone 15 overheating) or give really bad press and maybe lawsuits. They only move forward in the directions they chose internally. Yeah, maybe I'm being cynical or negative, but I know that these are smart people. They HAD to have known what effects their change would cause. This isn't a subtle effect caused by some weird combination of hardware and apps not of their making. This is an operating system methodology.
 

HDFan

Contributor
Original poster
Jun 30, 2007
6,652
2,894
but what did disk utilities have to say about the version and health of the file system? Have you tried pumping the payload to a new drive, just to see if there's some sort of fragmentation or catalog corruption? I'

Happens on multiple drives, attached and network. Didn't bother with disk utility.

there was a significant change made in how external drives are handled by macOS through the Finder. Not a bug - a design change

I don't think that Apple is much interested in revisiting decisions they made

Certainly there was a change. I was told that they acknowledged it as a bug and they are working on it. There were improvements in Sonoma. Default Folder X would show the same delays when displaying its menus. Now the menus appear instantly.
 

BKDad

macrumors regular
May 16, 2011
186
164
A strange event took place this morning...

I updated to Ventura 13.6.1 and Safari 17.1. Security updates always seem like a smart idea.

Now, the large folders in the external RAID drive show their contents very quickly. An 865 item folder populated in the Finder in about 3 seconds. And... When I opened that same folder later, it was instantly populated.

Coincidence? No way to tell. But, that's the only change I made since yesterday when showing a large folder's contents took 15 seconds or longer.

Let's see if it sticks.

Now I'm even less interested in upgrading to Sonoma. I can wait until things really settle down on that front.
 

ipaqrat

macrumors 6502
Mar 28, 2017
290
311
Good news! After all our mulling and rumination, it became pretty clear it was not user error, or configuration settings... Which left Apple as the culprit and then we'z all, like... 🎶
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with Tim
 

monokakata

macrumors 68020
May 8, 2008
2,038
585
Ithaca, NY
I upgraded to 13.6.1 and indeed there's a dramatic improvement in Finder speed on a big external with thousands of image files. Still a bit laggy, but lots better. Thanks for the tip DKDad.
 

arcamedia

macrumors newbie
Jul 20, 2008
9
0
Hi All, I have a 1 year old Mac Pro that has Monterey on it. I have a large OWC raid and a couple lacie raids on it as well. When I upgraded to Ventura it was a disaster. All raids loaded slow. Especially ones with thousands of files in a folder. Those folders could take up to ten minutes to load fully and then still they would load fairly quick once cached until next restart and then same delay. Playing multiple video streams of of these HFS+ formatted raids was horrible. In Monterey i could not max it out - maybe as many as 10-14 streams at once (HD to 4K) but in ventura that dropped to a lame 3-4 streams with lots of frames dropping and occasional slow downs that appear like you are locked up as the drive works with the OS to catch up.

So I scoured the web a couple months ago when I did this and only found a few other higher end users complaining about it but now I found this thread and am wondering. Is it fixed? I dont really enjoy the process of updating to ventura and then working with a bootable flash drive of Monterey to downgrade if it does not work. Has anyone really pushed this update with large folders with tons of files in it (like 10,000 plus) and with video streams to see if it really is back to the normal as it should be? It seemed to me like every solution to this issue that I found involved reformatting all drives to APFS which is not a great idea for a raid with spinning drives in it. The other solution was to be using an apple chip and not an intel one. Supposedly Apple silicon does not show the issue. Indeed I did tests with the same raids on my MacBook pro with Ventura and an M2Max in it and it worked fine. No issues - folders loaded normally and premiere was happy as a clam.

The other thing I learned was that using another tool like transmit to navigate the large folders was realtime. It was the finder that was super slow. A clue that it was all on apple. Anyway would love to hear feedback from others on if this 13.6.1 ventura update really does fix it or sorta fixes it or does not at all fix it. Honestly I was considering just buying a new Mac Pro with Apple silicon as my fix (a very pricey fix) - so seeing apple actually fix it would make me super happy. NOTE also I called this in with Apple and got no where. I currently have a case open with my local Apple store business group also still no answers yet. Thanks all and thanks macrumors!
 

monokakata

macrumors 68020
May 8, 2008
2,038
585
Ithaca, NY
Hi All, I have a 1 year old Mac Pro that has Monterey on it. I have a large OWC raid and a couple lacie raids on it as well. When I upgraded to Ventura it was a disaster. All raids loaded slow. Especially ones with thousands of files in a folder. Those folders could take up to ten minutes to load fully and then still they would load fairly quick once cached until next restart and then same delay. Playing multiple video streams of of these HFS+ formatted raids was horrible. In Monterey i could not max it out - maybe as many as 10-14 streams at once (HD to 4K) but in ventura that dropped to a lame 3-4 streams with lots of frames dropping and occasional slow downs that appear like you are locked up as the drive works with the OS to catch up.

So I scoured the web a couple months ago when I did this and only found a few other higher end users complaining about it but now I found this thread and am wondering. Is it fixed? I dont really enjoy the process of updating to ventura and then working with a bootable flash drive of Monterey to downgrade if it does not work. Has anyone really pushed this update with large folders with tons of files in it (like 10,000 plus) and with video streams to see if it really is back to the normal as it should be? It seemed to me like every solution to this issue that I found involved reformatting all drives to APFS which is not a great idea for a raid with spinning drives in it. The other solution was to be using an apple chip and not an intel one. Supposedly Apple silicon does not show the issue. Indeed I did tests with the same raids on my MacBook pro with Ventura and an M2Max in it and it worked fine. No issues - folders loaded normally and premiere was happy as a clam.

The other thing I learned was that using another tool like transmit to navigate the large folders was realtime. It was the finder that was super slow. A clue that it was all on apple. Anyway would love to hear feedback from others on if this 13.6.1 ventura update really does fix it or sorta fixes it or does not at all fix it. Honestly I was considering just buying a new Mac Pro with Apple silicon as my fix (a very pricey fix) - so seeing apple actually fix it would make me super happy. NOTE also I called this in with Apple and got no where. I currently have a case open with my local Apple store business group also still no answers yet. Thanks all and thanks macrumors!
As I posted just above, 13.6.1 did improve things -- but after some time I've noticed that it's really not all that much better. And to answer you about Apple silicon -- I'm seeing the problem with my Mac Studio M2.

Today or tomorrow I'll do a simple thing -- connect my Akitio TB3 external to my MacBook M2 running Sonoma, and see what happens. And report.
 
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cadec

macrumors newbie
Feb 7, 2020
22
6
Hi All, I have a 1 year old Mac Pro that has Monterey on it. I have a large OWC raid and a couple lacie raids on it as well. When I upgraded to Ventura it was a disaster. All raids loaded slow. Especially ones with thousands of files in a folder. Those folders could take up to ten minutes to load fully and then still they would load fairly quick once cached until next restart and then same delay. Playing multiple video streams of of these HFS+ formatted raids was horrible. In Monterey i could not max it out - maybe as many as 10-14 streams at once (HD to 4K) but in ventura that dropped to a lame 3-4 streams with lots of frames dropping and occasional slow downs that appear like you are locked up as the drive works with the OS to catch up.

So I scoured the web a couple months ago when I did this and only found a few other higher end users complaining about it but now I found this thread and am wondering. Is it fixed? I dont really enjoy the process of updating to ventura and then working with a bootable flash drive of Monterey to downgrade if it does not work. Has anyone really pushed this update with large folders with tons of files in it (like 10,000 plus) and with video streams to see if it really is back to the normal as it should be? It seemed to me like every solution to this issue that I found involved reformatting all drives to APFS which is not a great idea for a raid with spinning drives in it. The other solution was to be using an apple chip and not an intel one. Supposedly Apple silicon does not show the issue. Indeed I did tests with the same raids on my MacBook pro with Ventura and an M2Max in it and it worked fine. No issues - folders loaded normally and premiere was happy as a clam.

The other thing I learned was that using another tool like transmit to navigate the large folders was realtime. It was the finder that was super slow. A clue that it was all on apple. Anyway would love to hear feedback from others on if this 13.6.1 ventura update really does fix it or sorta fixes it or does not at all fix it. Honestly I was considering just buying a new Mac Pro with Apple silicon as my fix (a very pricey fix) - so seeing apple actually fix it would make me super happy. NOTE also I called this in with Apple and got no where. I currently have a case open with my local Apple store business group also still no answers yet. Thanks all and thanks macrumors!
DEFINITELY NOT fixed on Ventura 13.6.1 on an imac intel 2020 5K. slow laggy ridiculous. worse every Ventura upgrade, in fact, since Monterey. should never have upgraded to ventura.
 

HDFan

Contributor
Original poster
Jun 30, 2007
6,652
2,894
Is it fixed?

No. Some file functions are better in Sonoma but the fundamental problem remains.

The other solution was to be using an apple chip and not an intel one. Supposedly Apple silicon does not show the issue.

Same problem exists on Apple Silicon.

t was the finder that was super slow.

Yes, seems to be limited to the finder.

I currently have a case open with my local Apple store business group also still no answers yet.

Please update us if you get any results.
 

arcamedia

macrumors newbie
Jul 20, 2008
9
0
Wow guys that is amazing your fast and detailed reply. thank you! Your results not so exciting ;) . The one thing that stands out is that you said the issue was not limited to intel and that it existed on silicon. That I did not find in my tests. I have a very new MacBook pro with the latest chip and it 'seemed' fast. Notably the load of the large folder test it passed immediately. I did not throw a lot of video at it or run a blackmagic speed test on it but I will get to that and try. My whole concept in my head was upgrade to silicon and just move on since Apple seems to ignore the problem. That would throw that crazy 'work-around' concept out the window. Good cause it will save me thousands. But what I dont get is why apple ignores this. Users with large raids and doing lots of video work are the back-bone of their power users and I thought the reason their mac pros existed. Raids just dont like being formatted in APFS and apple even suggests against it with spinning drives...odd. Sad too. I will update you on the stores powers...Lets see. I will show them this thread for sure!

Would love to know if anyone else has run premier or other editor or even video player with a bunch of streams from a silicon machine and seen a difference vs an intel chip. Does it hiccup when running from an HFS+ source? does it freeze occasionally? How long do folders with thousand of files take to load vs on ventura with a silicon chipset. Wondering also if it matters what chipset you actually have on your machine ie M1 M2 Max etc... Mostly Apple should tell us and fix it.
 
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BKDad

macrumors regular
May 16, 2011
186
164
As I posted just above, 13.6.1 did improve things -- but after some time I've noticed that it's really not all that much better. And to answer you about Apple silicon -- I'm seeing the problem with my Mac Studio M2.

Today or tomorrow I'll do a simple thing -- connect my Akitio TB3 external to my MacBook M2 running Sonoma, and see what happens. And report.

I was just thinking about this thread.

When I updated to their latest version of Ventura, things definitely sped up, as others have described. Now, it's all back to a snail's pace. I have no idea what happened. The only things that have changed in my system of consequence are the inevitable security file updates from Apple and the also inevitable cache files that get built over time.

Somebody, somewhere probably knows about those cache files and what to try, but that somebody is not me.

Overall, very discouraging!

When I heard that Apple was stopping forward progress on one of their newest operations system developments in order to chase bugs, I had to laugh. A whole week to fumigate years of bug inbreeding? I felt embarrassed for them.
 
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BKDad

macrumors regular
May 16, 2011
186
164
Update:

Within the limitations of my knowledge, I tested the cache theory.

I booted into Safe mode. Amongst other things, this cleans out some caches. The first time I tried opening my "test" folder that is located on an external HFS+ drive, Finder took a while to populate the list. Just like before the Safe mode reboot. But, guess what! The second time was much faster. It stayed at the faster speed on subsequent folder openings. I was a little happier.

That was on Friday.

This morning, I tried a different approach. I used Onyx to perform what they call Maintenance on the system. It cleans out caches and a bunch of other files. Guess what! After doing that, Finder populated the same test folder file listing almost instantly. Back to Mojave speed, pretty much. Imagine my surprise. I just opened a different folder with 2500+ files in it to check. It took about three seconds to populate the file listing. The Loading message barely stayed on screen.

OK, that's not a completely controlled test. But, it does show that this could be something to do with some cache file somewhere. I think. That could explain why updating to 13.6.1 seemed to improve things. Given what we know about Apple's approach to dodging bug fixes, especially in last year's operating system, it's almost certain that 13.6.1 didn't address this bug. Instead, the actual fix was that the act of updating wiped out the cache file causing the problem. I guess that should've been obvious in retrospect.

There's nothing we puny humans can much do about all this, except to apply Onyx when (if?) things slow down. Maybe. Time will tell. Things could go bad for me this afternoon. I guess that would give an opportunity to further test the Onyx solution, though. But, I'd rather that the problem is actually fixed. Fingers crossed.

Now, if I can find a solution for the dopey glitches Safari causes when typing a reply to a forum like this one.
 

monokakata

macrumors 68020
May 8, 2008
2,038
585
Ithaca, NY
Update:

Within the limitations of my knowledge, I tested the cache theory.

I booted into Safe mode. Amongst other things, this cleans out some caches. The first time I tried opening my "test" folder that is located on an external HFS+ drive, Finder took a while to populate the list. Just like before the Safe mode reboot. But, guess what! The second time was much faster. It stayed at the faster speed on subsequent folder openings. I was a little happier.

That was on Friday.

This morning, I tried a different approach. I used Onyx to perform what they call Maintenance on the system. It cleans out caches and a bunch of other files. Guess what! After doing that, Finder populated the same test folder file listing almost instantly. Back to Mojave speed, pretty much. Imagine my surprise. I just opened a different folder with 2500+ files in it to check. It took about three seconds to populate the file listing. The Loading message barely stayed on screen.

OK, that's not a completely controlled test. But, it does show that this could be something to do with some cache file somewhere. I think. That could explain why updating to 13.6.1 seemed to improve things. Given what we know about Apple's approach to dodging bug fixes, especially in last year's operating system, it's almost certain that 13.6.1 didn't address this bug. Instead, the actual fix was that the act of updating wiped out the cache file causing the problem. I guess that should've been obvious in retrospect.

There's nothing we puny humans can much do about all this, except to apply Onyx when (if?) things slow down. Maybe. Time will tell. Things could go bad for me this afternoon. I guess that would give an opportunity to further test the Onyx solution, though. But, I'd rather that the problem is actually fixed. Fingers crossed.

Now, if I can find a solution for the dopey glitches Safari causes when typing a reply to a forum like this one.
Well, well, well. I ran Onyx and had the same happy result you did -- back to normal. Thanks for the tip! I do run Onyx every now and then, but hadn't run it on the new Studio.
 

BKDad

macrumors regular
May 16, 2011
186
164
I hadn't run Onyx on this relatively new Studio either. With the previous Intel iMac, it was very rarely required.

But, maybe now we're back to the past. Remember how we all routinely used to Repair Permissions? Or, before that, rebuild the Desktop? I'm thinking that a monthly run of Onyx will become part of the routine that also includes making backups of the backups. "Carbon Copy Cloner and Onyx, together on one stage!"

It would be great to know what the actual problem is. That way a script could be written to do a routine fix in the background. I suspect that we'll never know. I wonder if Sonoma has this same problem.

BTW, I just did my test again of opening the test folder on the external drive.

Guess what! It was slower than yesterday. Not as bad as before, but noticeably slower.

So, I ran Onyx again.

Guess what! Back to Mojave speeds.

I'm guessing that there is some sort of file that gets filled and bogs down the system over time. Not much time, it would seem. Anybody who tries this fix please let us know if this works the same for you.
 
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monokakata

macrumors 68020
May 8, 2008
2,038
585
Ithaca, NY
This is not working on Sonoma M2 macmini on a network share with around 500.000 pdf files.
That's a different problem than the one we're taking about, isn't it? We've been trying to solve a problem with directly-attached disks, not network shares.

But -- when I gave Forklift a try, I was astonished to find that it brought up files on my Synology 920 much faster than Finder did. Forklift 4 has a free trial. It might be worth your while.
 

Huey_Pilot

macrumors newbie
Nov 18, 2021
11
2
That's a different problem than the one we're taking about, isn't it? We've been trying to solve a problem with directly-attached disks, not network shares.
From the opening post
Demonstrated problem on 2 different external thunderbolt RAID devices as well as a thunderbolt NAS. The problem doesn't seem to happen with files on an internal SSD
 
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