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Morky

macrumors regular
Jul 8, 2002
201
157
NYC
More on Power4

This is a quote from macosrumors.com posted this morning:

"Also, Apple sources have recently told Rumors that when Apple ships computers branded as PowerMac G5s next year, they will almost certainly not include Motorola PowerPC 8500 processors, which are the G5 as we know it today -- they will be IBM-built chips based on its Power4 architecture, and may even include multiple cores on a single chip. More on this after Macworld...."

Very interesting...
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
Originally posted by Pants
hmm...apple did a way good job of selling Altivec to you guys eh? ;)

I hate to be a heretic, but Im not sure why everyone is so hung up on it - yes, at the time it was a better implementation of what was around, but other manufacturers have caught up. Not only that, but its hardly been used by any software since it was introduced. I wouldnt be exactly unhappy to see it disappear and be replaced by a similar set of extensions, and a better FPU.

Well OSX makes full use of Altivec......... pretty much all the software I use is Altivec aware....... (most of the software that requires intensive processing requires it) the only people that don't really require are the ones that think demanding tasks involves emailing, word processing and having a moochy around the net......... I'd always take a new G4 over a new G3 anyday of the week.......
 

nickgold

macrumors regular
Jul 17, 2001
115
0
Dropping Altivec? I doubt it.

It would certainly be a pisser if future versions of Gx chips drop Altivec support. As the above poster said, just about all intensive software makes use of the technology these days, as does Mac OS X itself. I can't see them just dropping it, after so many companies took a while to implement support into their products. I can see Apple perhaps _adding_ functionality beyond Altivec, but that doesn't mean they have to drop Altivec altogether. At least keep it around during the interim, while software companies incorporate its (possible) follow-up.
 

ZoodTube

macrumors newbie
Jul 8, 2002
8
0
Austin, TX
Re: just in...

Originally posted by 3G4N

How long is it, typically, between the time when a chip has
been "tapped out" and when PowerMacs ship? A month?

3G4N: Tape Out is a term (dating back to when mainframe computers/servers still used large tape drives) in the semiconductor industry that indicates that a final layout design has been verified and approved and has been copied to "tape" so that it can be delivered to the mask writing shop. The next step in the process is creating the mask set used for production of the wafers. Usually, it takes several months from the time of tape out to first silicon. So, I wouldn't expect working silicon to be available from this particular design for at least several months.
 

Marianco

macrumors member
Mar 18, 2002
44
0
Altivec Rules!

Getting rid of Altivec will cripple the PowerPC CPU compared to the Athlon and Pentium4. Without Altivec, the PowerPC cannot compete against the Athlon's and the Pentium4's version of Altivec. Most of the Pentium4's multimedia power comes from it's own implementation of Altivec!!! The Pentium4 is known to have a crippled floating point unit.

Remeber: Having Altivec is the similar to having multiple parallel CPUs when you are processing multimedia data. A single great floating point unit cannot match up to multiple parallel floating point units - which is what Altivec is, when you are crunching video or sound or other data which can be chunked into several pieces. When you encrypt data, for example, Altivec can be 16 times faster than a floating point unit. Quicktime greatly benefits from Altivec. The software DVD player greatly benefits from Altivec.

The Power4 processor is a great server processor, probably the best for now. But it cannot do multimedia as well as a single Athlon or Pentium4. The Power4 processor is similar to having 2 PowerPC G3 CPUs with a very fast bus. With the Athlons and Pentiums evolving to include very fast data busses, for multimedia data, the Power4 is going to be outstripped.

It is better for Apple to have a G5 processor which includes Altivec. If anything, Altivec should be improved so that it includes double-precission floating point. With double-precission floating point, Altivec can then be used to greatly speed up more scientific and engineering programs - expanding the market and blowing away the Athlon and Pentium4.
 

GPTurismo

macrumors 6502
May 4, 2001
275
1
Montgomery, AL USA
I have to agree. Dropping Altivec would be idiotic.. It's 128 processing and MOSX really needs it to run at max power :\

Also the power series chips are all corporate/enterprise level chips. To run corrctly it needs all that cache and power. To power it down is like having a ferarri with a 50 horsepower motor.

ALso, 64 bit processing is still very expensive. Itanium boxes are still in the 5 digit range, and the Itaniums 2 are gonna cost even more. When you start talking enterpriese level equipment, you are talking 15 grand at least, and unfortunately, 64 bit is enterprise level. If you want to see powermacs sore in price again, keep praying for them to drop a 64 bit chip within the next year. As we can all see, price point is the most important aspect for the GENERAL public to buy a machine. And a 5000$ bare bones mac would only be the final nail in the coffin at this time.
 

Brent Turbo

macrumors member
Jan 24, 2002
69
0
Boston, MA
Lets-a go!

Originally posted by GPTurismo
When you start talking enterpriese level equipment, you are talking 15 grand at least, and unfortunately, 64 bit is enterprise level.

Does this mean I can sell my Nintendo 64 for $15k? Might be hard to get rid of without the rack ears....
 

Wry Cooter

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2002
418
0
Don't think of it as dropping altivec, as much as dropping Motorola, who can't seem to hit yeilds or deadlines for beans.

Also remember that IBM has its very own altivec core clone which could be completely compatible and extend the code more.

A third option- Apple could buy Altivec from Moto and have it applied to other chip designs by other manufacturers.

Altivec is used more commonly that a lot of people realize. Watched any Quicktime lately? Ripped any MP3s in iTunes? Played with iMovie? These are all much slower without altivec helping with the codecs. Altivec is used for more than simply a photoshop filter or two, and it will probably have to be included in future chips that Apple may use, in one form or another.

If it were not for altivec, Motorola may already have been out of the picture for a couple of years now. It bought them time to become a more conscientious vendor for Apple; who is to blame if they haven't been able to put that time to better use towards this end?
 

gbojim

macrumors 6502
Jan 30, 2002
353
0
Say what?

Also remember that IBM has its very own altivec core clone which could be completely compatible and extend the code more.

Do you have a link to any info on this?
 

Pants

macrumors regular
Aug 21, 2001
194
9
Originally posted by iGAV


Well OSX makes full use of Altivec......... pretty much all the software I use is Altivec aware....... (most of the software that requires intensive processing requires it) the only people that don't really require are the ones that think demanding tasks involves emailing, word processing and having a moochy around the net......... I'd always take a new G4 over a new G3 anyday of the week.......

well it does, but thats more a reflection of the (sluggish) state of the g4 than a ringing endorsement for Altivec. Photoshop uses it yes, but coding for it is a pain - few compilers are even aware it exists, let alone be able to optimise code for it. an example - anyone remember iD's 'fun' with codewarrior and altivec? Yes, you and i would take a g4 over a g3, but again, is that a ringing recommendation or like saying "Id rather a cold than measles"? ;)

If anyone here thinks that Altivec is the only SIMD implementation around they are very much mistaken - 3dnow? MAJC? even the playstation2 has one! . As for the g4's '128 bit' processing....ahem....hardly - if it were, why bother with a g5? ;)
 

Silver Dragon

macrumors member
May 7, 2002
45
0
Minneapolis
Couple of posters have hit this right on.... But let's clarify a few points.

1 - a 64 bit processor does *not* mean that it's faster. It means that the processor can address more memory. In most cases a 64 bit processor will slow down 32 bit applications; however, it looks like the 8500 series will actually be able to run 32 bit apps at full speed. THAT's what is so cool about the 8500. Just because 64 is bigger than 32 does not mean that it's bigger and better.

2 - Altivec is actually pretty cool, but it also ties us to Motorola. Motorola can come up with some very cool concepts and designs, they just can't seem to produce these designs in bulk. Remember how we were stuck at 500MHz forever and a day? I blame that on Motorola. Now let's talk about IBM. IBM has some *very* cool production facilities and has taken the PowerPC architecture to the extreme :::echo, echo, echo:::. It would be a beautiful day if IBM took over the PowerPC fulfillment for Apple instead of Motorola... What would be even nicer is if IBM and Motorola had rights to produce all chips for Apple. Now I'm just dreaming. Point is, Altivec is cool, Motorola can't produce the chips (in the quantities that we demand) with Altivec on it. IBM can produce the chips, but then we loose Altivec. Perfect world, Apple buys Altivec and allows both Motorola and IBM to produce chips. This would re-create the alliance that the PowerPC was supposed to bring. Sorry, I rambled here.

3 - We will not see the Power4 in a consumer Macintosh. That chip is not designed for consumer computers. It's a server chip plain and simple. We *might* see Power4 technology in a Macintosh, but not the chip itself.

4 - G5 is just a name. What would everyone do if Apple decided to skip Generation 5 and just go to Generation 6? Would we say "WOW, this is so much better than the G5!!!" or would everyone realize that it's Marketing. Just because it's a G5 does ***not*** mean it's better.

5 - I believe that old Steve has a trick up his sleeve. See, the X86 architecture is (in my opinion) about to hit a brick wall. There's only so many times you can build upon a bad foundation before the whole house falls. That is when Apple will step in with the Uber processor. His Steveness (as per AtAT) has eluded to having a processor plan many times in financial calls. He has said not to worry, Apple has it under control. Personally, I trust that he knows more about upcoming products than I do, so I trust him.

Anyhow, that's my $3.50. Some of that info may be right, other info wrong. It happens. Hope it made sense and I didn't ramble on too long.

-SD
 

type_r503

macrumors member
Jul 14, 2002
46
0
MOT's a gonner

What may interest some of you is that Motorola was inactive for several days during the fourth of july week (trying to save money). The G4 is (let's not kid ourselfs) lagging behind in perceived speed to the AMD/Intel camp. How could apple expect someone to "Switch" from a +3Ghz to a 1.4 or 1.5Ghz. Intel has caught up to the G4 regardless of Altivec, Apple is tired of dealling with Motorola and so would I. Remember 500Mhz?


Type R503
 

gbojim

macrumors 6502
Jan 30, 2002
353
0
Originally posted by Pants


well it does, but thats more a reflection of the (sluggish) state of the g4 than a ringing endorsement for Altivec. ... If anyone here thinks that Altivec is the only SIMD implementation around they are very much mistaken - 3dnow? MAJC? even the playstation2 has one! . As for the g4's '128 bit' processing....ahem....hardly - if it were, why bother with a g5? ;)

The use of Altivec is absolutely NOT a reflection of the sluggish state of the G4. When AIM decided on the PPC architecture, they could have added a bunch of pipeline stages like Intel and jacked the clock rate, or they could opt for a different method to achieve performance which is the path they took - in this case adding vector processing, cache, etc. Apple was a big part of those decisions and is using Altivec because that was the direction they decided to go. With the differential in clock rate, a PPC CPU all by itself will never match Intel or AMD in integer performance. You may not agree with the decisions they made, so be it.

Sure there are lots of SIMD implementations. However, Altivec is the only generic one around that is being used in a desktop computer. All of the others are really designed to enhance multimedia. It is very difficult to do anything else with them.
 

Catfish_Man

macrumors 68030
Sep 13, 2001
2,579
2
Portland, OR
Altivec...

...does the same things as SSE, MMX, 3dNOW, SSE2, etc... but it does them much better, and does some things that they don't. The Pentium4 has 1 pipeline for SIMD and it's shared with the FPU. The G4+ has 4 dedicated pipelines. Altivec is the way SIMD should be. Now if only the rest of the G4 were that advanced... (specifically, I want DDR and a .13 micron manufacturing process).

To the people who constantly whine about how nothing uses Altivec: How do you know?
 

alex_ant

macrumors 68020
Feb 5, 2002
2,473
0
All up in your bidness
Originally posted by Silver Dragon
5 - I believe that old Steve has a trick up his sleeve. See, the X86 architecture is (in my opinion) about to hit a brick wall. There's only so many times you can build upon a bad foundation before the whole house falls.

Can you elaborate on this? I would love for x86 to hit a brick wall too, but haven't x86 chips evolved so substantially from their earlier days as to be fundamentally different architecturally today?
That is when Apple will step in with the Uber processor. His Steveness (as per AtAT) has eluded to having a processor plan many times in financial calls.
Links, links I want links. :)

Alex
 

Silver Dragon

macrumors member
May 7, 2002
45
0
Minneapolis
Originally posted by Pants
As for the g4's '128 bit' processing....ahem....hardly - if it were, why bother with a g5? ;)

Actually, the G4 does have 128 bit processing. I believe (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) it's as follows:

CPU: 32bit
FPU: 64 bit
Altivec: 128bit

I *think* that's right, but I can't remember. Someone smarter than I feel free to correct the above statement.

As I have stated time, and time, and time again... 64 bit does not mean it's faster. In most cases if you have a 64 bit CPU, your 32 bit applications will run slower. Let me say that again. If you have a 64 bit CPU, in most cases your 32 bit applications will run slower. The nice thing about Motorola's 8500 series... It's a 64 bit processor that allows 32 bit applications to run without a speed hit. The advantage? The processor can address much more memory without slowing down your current apps. Twice as fast? Nope. Will you notice a speed difference? Probably not (based on equal processors, but one being 64 bit instead of 32 bit.) Let's get off this 32 vs 64 thing and focus on what would really increase performance!!!

Just my $1.75.

-SD
 

Silver Dragon

macrumors member
May 7, 2002
45
0
Minneapolis
Originally posted by alex_ant

Can you elaborate on this? I would love for x86 to hit a brick wall too, but haven't x86 chips evolved so substantially from their earlier days as to be fundamentally different architecturally today?

Links, links I want links. :)

Alex [/B]

Simple...
x86, has had a long life. It is now to the point where they are pulling any rabbit out af the hat they can to make those chips seem faster. Are they faster? Yeah, a wee bit, but not much. More and more it's a bigger number with no performance gain. So I look at it like the chips have hit the end of their life. Notice how AMD and Intel are not churning out as many speed bumps as before? There are a couple of reasons for this, but one of them is the inability to do what they want the chips to do (I must applaud the engineers though, I never thought they would get as far as they did... ) The chips have changed... a lot. The problem is that the end result has to be a x86 based instruction. You can translate it as many times as you want, Windows only understands X86 (well, kinda. Theer was that PPC version of Windows, and then there is SSE and such... But we will ignore that for now.) Again, this is opinion and I may be wrong.

As for Steve having a trick up his sleeve... Listen to the old financial calls from Apple. Go to the end where there is a Q&A session. This happens on a few of them. Someone will ask about processor speed, and his Steveness will always come back with "Don't worry, we have a plan in place. It's under control. Just wait for what we have to offer down the road". Not a direct quote of course, but you get the idea. Not sure where to find the financial results anymore (QuickTime stream) but search Apple's site. Go back about year and start listning. I *highly* suggest everyone listen to these calls live when they happen. You get more insite into Apple in that hour than with all the rumor sites combined... At least I do :)

Remember, this is all opinion. I don't claim to have a crystal ball nor am I saying that any of this is fact. I'm just listning to what Apple has to say and using commom sense.

-SD
 

Marianco

macrumors member
Mar 18, 2002
44
0
G5, Power4, Altivec, Etc.

In comparing the G4, Speculated G5, Power4, Athlon, and Pentium 4, processors, there are three factors which determine speed of the CPU: 1) SIMD/Altivec, 2) Pipeline length, and 3) Bus speed. The G4, Athlon, and Pentium 4 all have implementations of SIMD (which is Altivec on the G4). The Pentium 4 has the weakest floating point unit, the Athlon the strongest floating point unit. The Pentium 4 has the longest pipelines, the G4 the shortest. Pipelines allow you to work very fast serially with data, while SIMD units allow you to work very fast with data in parallel fashion. Pipelines allow you to speed up the clockrate of the CPU. The Power4 is the only CPU with a super speedy bus speed. It is capable of transferring 25 gigabytes of data a second. The other CPUs are limited to single gigs of data a second.

The limitation of SIMD units is that your data must be able to be chunked up in pieces to be useable and worked on in parallel. Data which are great for SIMD units include video, sound, data to be encrypted, genetics data. For these, an SIMD unit is like having several CPUs working in parallel. If the data cannot be chunked, then you have to use the CPU's integer or floating point units. The Pentium 4 is slower than a Pentium 3 at the same clockspeed when it's SIMD unit is not used.

The strength of a long pipeline is that as you crank up the speed of the CPU, the speed of processing data through the integer and floating point units increases as well. The limitation of a pipeline is that if the program you are working with makes frequent decision changes, such as with random data, you have to reload the pipeline from memory, wasting a lot of time.

The weakness of using the G4 is that many programs rely on serial processing of data (i.e. work using the integer or floating point unit), not parallel processing. This includes database work, word processing, games, etc. These programs work faster with a higher speed CPU, such as the Pentium 4. In games, the Graphics Processing Unit does the heavy SIMD work, relying mainly on the integer unit on the CPU to get things done.

The speculated G5 (or G4++ CPU) has a longer pipeline. This allows it to have both SIMD and a higher clockspeed. The implementation of DDR and faster bus (such as Rapid-IO or Hypertransport) will further improve on the three factors in CPU design, giving the G5 a greater ability to surpass the Pentium 4.

If you are waiting for the Pentium 4 to hit a wall - you will be waiting a long time. People have made this prediction for years. What Intel has done is to improve on the *86 architecture so that it has RISC features, has SIMD, longer pipelines, and greater bus speed. As it rose past 2.5 GHz in speed, it outstripped the Athlon (which has a slow bus speed and shorter pipelines, though better SIMD and Floating point unit).

If more pipelines and a better bus can be added to the Athlon, it would be a monster chip. Already, it is so much faster in Photoshop than the G4 (because the Athlon has a much stronger floating point unit, and a nice SIMD unit), that Steve does not compare a dual G4 to a single Athlon. The single 1.7 GHz Athlon beats a dual 1 GHz G4 in Photoshop, and is cheap to boot.

Once more pipelines (to allow higher clockrates) and a better bus and a better floating point unit are added to the G4, it will then beat the Athlon.

This leaves one matter: multiple CPUs. With Mac OS X capable of supporting multiple CPUs, the two easiest ways to improve Mac speeds are to have Quad G4 Mac with faster busses.
 

beatle888

macrumors 68000
Feb 3, 2002
1,690
0
Silver Dragon

finally we have an intelligent soul on board.
One that doesnt speak in a condescending tone.

SEE ALL YOU BRATY TEENS OR ANGRY OLD PEOPLE!
TAKE A LESSON YOUR MOMMY DIDNT TEACH YOU,
HOW TO BE HUMAN.

I like how Silver Dragon uses the disclaimer at
the end. He's obviously aware of you little twits.

sorry, just tired of all the little bitches on the site
:p
 

pgwalsh

macrumors 68000
Jun 21, 2002
1,639
218
New Zealand
Off Topic

Originally posted by Silver Dragon

Theer was that PPC version of Windows, and then there is SSE and such... But we will ignore that for now.)
I have a version of NT that supports ppc. However, I'd never to that to the ppc.
 

Marianco

macrumors member
Mar 18, 2002
44
0
Power4

The Power4 is a great server processor. It has a very fast bus to push data through. It has two processor cores (essentially two G3s) to work on the data in parallel. It does the job of pushing data very well. Having two processor cores allows you to have redundancy if one fails.

A weakness of the Power4 is that if your data cannot be worked on in parallel, then one of the processor cores is not used (half of the CPU is wasted), reducing it to a 1.2 GHz G3 processor, essentially with a fat data bus.

Another weakness of the Power4 is that if you try to use it for data which can be processed in parallel - such as multimedia, video, movies, sound, data for encryption, genetics data, bit-mapped data (such as used by Photoshop), Altivec blasts the Power4 to bits at the same clockrate. If the data is chunked in 8 bit lengths, then Altivec is the same has having 16 parallel processing units, whereas the Power4 will have only two. For this type of data, Altivec will be 8 times faster than the Power4's two processing cores.

Note that the G4 is already instruction compatible with the Power4. Thus it is really no biggie to claim that the G5 is based on the Power4. In fact, you could say that the Power4 is two G3s with an extremely fast data/instruction bus. Give the G4 an extremely fast data/instruction bus and it will destroy the Power4 when using the Altivec unit.
 

Sun Baked

macrumors G5
May 19, 2002
14,937
157
With IBM you can almost expect that a dual G5 will reside on a single chunk of silicon using a large combined cache.

Going from the 603/604 to the G3/G4 was supposed to make multiple CPUs on a single chip a reality, but they never made it - just multiple processing units (integer, fpu, altivec) for a single CPU.

The really interesting choice should be what type of bus Apple decides on for the next gen of CPU. I'd almost expect something safe like Hypertransport, but Apple could leapfrog to something much faster.
 

jadam

macrumors 6502a
Jan 23, 2002
699
2
silver dragon... your very wrong. 64 bit code IS NOT SLOWER than 32bit code. 32bit Code BEING EMULATED on a 64bit IS SLOWER. Hence the Itanium which has to emulate 32bit x86 instructions on its 64bit IA-64 ISA. The Power4 runs PPC code Natively, hence it runs it VERY FAST. 64bit code IS slower if you have a slow bus.

The G3 used in the iBook 600/700 is .13u BTW. And IBM has a .1u plant in FishKilsl NY. The Power4's use 125watts because they are 2-xx cores on one chip.

Yes, and Altivec unit WOULD murder a two core Power4 processor in multimedia, but if... this dual Core Power4 had TWO 256bit AltiVec units, which a next gen chip SHOULD have, then ... well, you know the rest :).

Ohh yeah, Silver Dragon- the moto 8500's are not as good as the Power4's.

And Intel WILL NOT hit a brick wall, i mean seriously, the PIV's can have a 1.2ghz bus, probally even more, they are designed to scale up to 10ghz. probally more. And the PIV i think take up like 75 watts too. so, if you take out 30mb of L2 cache and 120mb of L3 cache from that 125watt Power4 processor then... Plus remember, they are designed to stay on for a long time, and they need more then enough juice just in case.

AND Sun sells $900 64bit Sparc stations OK
 

Silver Dragon

macrumors member
May 7, 2002
45
0
Minneapolis
jadam, I don't think I was as clear as I should have been. Please let me clarify.

I did not say that 64 bit code was slower. I said that 32 bit code on a 64 bit processor is slower. However, the 8500 changes this as 32 bit code runs just as fast as 64 bit code. That's really, in my opinion, one of the only cool things about the 8500 series. I did not really elaborate and made a few assumptions about the reader. My fault.

64 bit still does not mean it's faster. It can just allocate larger chunks of memory. Please correct me if I'm wrong. 64bit code on a 64bit process will take no speed hit, agreed. I don't believe I ever said it would, but if I implied that I apologize.

As I said about the x86 line, that's just my opinion. I have nothing to back it up, nor do I claim to have insider info. I'm just looking at what Intel and AMD were putting out vs what they are putting out today. I'm also seeing more and more problems crop up and more and more people actually looking at performance. If that's the case, they may have a problem. Again, in my opinion.

And finally, I don't remember saying that the 8500 was better than the Power4. I did say that the Power4 does not belong in consumer computers as it stands right now, which I believe to be true. Take the cool parts of the Power4 that belong in consumerville add them to a new IBM processor, call it the G5 and I'm happy. If I gave the impression that I want the 8500 in my next Mac, I'm *very* sorry. I think it's cool, but I would much prefer go back to IBM for the production of PPC chips (please note my signature.)

jadam, I think we agree on most points, but I don't think I was clear on my intent. Accept my apologies, and try re-reading my posts with the idea that I want IBM, don't really like Motorola, and think that too many people are hyped over nothing over 64 bit when they all own 32 bit applications.

Just my $2.25. Hope that clears some things up.

-SD
 

dongmin

macrumors 68000
Jan 3, 2002
1,709
5
Originally posted by Silver Dragon

x86, has had a long life. It is now to the point where they are pulling any rabbit out af the hat they can to make those chips seem faster. Are they faster? Yeah, a wee bit, but not much. More and more it's a bigger number with no performance gain. So I look at it like the chips have hit the end of their life. Notice how AMD and Intel are not churning out as many speed bumps as before?


I don't know how you can say this. AMD's processors outperform the G4 in every aspect. It used to be before, the G4 had advantages in certain areas like running Photoshop. But now... If anything, the performance gap seems to be growing, and AMD seems to have a more promising immediate future.

And I'm talking about real-world performance here, not the gigahertz gap which is a whole another animal...


As for Steve having a trick up his sleeve... Listen to the old financial calls from Apple. Go to the end where there is a Q&A session. This happens on a few of them. Someone will ask about processor speed, and his Steveness will always come back with "Don't worry, we have a plan in place. It's under control. Just wait for what we have to offer down the road".

Don't you think this is a bit of wishful thinking on your part? It's been 3+ years since we had the 500 mhz hurdle, and the PowerPC is STILL lagging in development. We can't take Steve's words at face value; he is the master of the Reality Distortion Field after all. I want to see some concrete proof that the PowerPC is going places (Moto's optimistic powerpc roadmap doesn't count).

I love my Mac. I don't think I'll ever go over to the dark side. I love the design, the OS, the community, and the ambition to be original and innovate. But I don't have any illusions about it being the most advanced or fastest hardware out there.
 
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