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Stryker

macrumors member
Original poster
Aug 31, 2001
33
0
FYI

John123, just read this article from Middle Eastern International and BEFORE you try to reply to my earlier statements try to UNDERSTAND and LEARN its meaning. You tell me that I and others are quick to get angry or judge or react, etc. but you are to quick to reply to things of which you most likely have no actual knowledge. I will not reply any further, if you still don't get it then I guess I am talking to a stone.

======
""Islamic fundamentalism" may be defined as a political ideology which aims at islamizing or re-islamizing law, institutions and government. It wants to set up an Islamic state with a constitutional framework and political organisation solely based on Islam with the Sharia or Islamic law as its sole legal reference.

The modern form of Islamic fundamentalism appeared at the turn of this century both as a reaction against modernist movements trying to westernize the Muslim world and as a resistance movement against colonial empires, particularly the British.

Two tendencies surfaced:

* the reformist or evolutionary (salafiyya) tendency, which was a SMALL MINORITY [empahsis added], advocated a return to the original model of Islamic society which had generated the splendid Arab culture and civilisation. The Sharia is therefore considered as a system of universal reference which must be interpreted and adapted to the realities of today through the opening of the fates of idjtihâd;

* the FUNDAMENTALIST tendency advocate going back to the roots of Islam and reject all interpretation of the Sharia which, in their view, should be applied litterally to all fields of life.

Although all Islamic fundamentalist movements share the same objective (the creation of an Islamic state) they have different views on the strategies, structures and socio-political organisation of this type of state.

[Read this part carefully, John] The radical movements think that the Islamic state must be created from the top downwards and if necessary through violent action. They do NOT [empahsis added] want to wait until society gradually becomes Islamic and do not want any compromise with existing regimes (this is the case with the Gamaat Islamiya in Egypt and the GIA in Algeria).

* * *

As far as the Arab world is concerned, Islamic fundamentalism developed at different periods in time, particularly in the 18th century in the Arabic Peninsula (see Wahabism) and in the 20th century in Egypt (see Muslim Brothers) and in other countries in the seventies and eighties (see FIS, Hamas and Hizbollah) as a reaction to specific challenges. The Iranian revolution (although belonging to Shia Islam) and the war in Afghanistan (see Afghans) played an important role in spreading Islamic fundamentalism. "
========

I have all along only been referring to this "radical, fundamentalist" movement; and I stand by my statements.
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,588
1,589
Re: Pot calling kettle black!

Originally posted by Stryker
And as far as my "anger", of course I am angry, I lost friends. Did you???!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then shut up!

Another foolish assumption that, as it turns out, is incorrect.
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,588
1,589
Re: FYI

Originally posted by Stryker

I have all along only been referring to this "radical, fundamentalist" movement; and I stand by my statements.

Then you're still a biggoted fool.

Even if one acknowledges the more violent side of the fundamentalist movement, which we have seen for a long time now in the Middle East (and which goes ignored by most Americans who are inattentive to foreign relations and everything else that is going on in the world), that doesn't exactly make your argument. There are going to be fundamentalists who disagree altogether with violence; there are going to be fundamentalists who agree with violence only against Israeli troops; there are going to be fundamentalists who agree with violence against only Israelis but no one else; and there are going to be Fundamentalists who agree with violence against Israelis and anyone who befriends the state of Israel. There are a hell of a lot of graduated distinctions which should be made here, and a naive and genocidal statement such as "DEATH TO ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS" is, as I have noted before, tantamount to the rhetoric used by Nazi Germany.
 

mymemory

macrumors 68020
May 9, 2001
2,495
-1
Miami
People don't you see the picture?

I do have a deeply respect for the US culture, even it is not that wonderful as you may think but it has a simplicity lost more than 20 years ago in my culture.

What I can tell you do not see yet is: What in hell your government was doing all these years out side your frontiers to deserve this? Why is a plane crashing against NY and not to Caracas, Berlin, Sidney, etc. and is not one plane, it was THE plan against your country.

What your government is doing to deserve so much hate?

I've been in the US for 3 years and I can tell you live in a fairly tail some times. You just got a bit of reality; well I can say too much reality.

For example, I can tell you 20 years ago there was the intention in my country to build railroads. Lots of people know that the US government "did something" to stop the plan and for us to keep buying Ford and Chevrolet trucks.

And let's not talk about the Oil, every time the US is in one those wars we have to keep the price stable for you, but there is no way the US do something about the interest of the loans we took 30 years ago. For your information we paid 60 times more in a year of what the WTC cost, just in interest. We have paid the debs about 300.000 times. And I'm not kidding and those are not rumors. I leave in a wealthy family and I know people of almost every single bank in my country and you would be amaze of the numbers. Still, we won't even think in even thought something wrong against the US people, may be the government, but not even this one.

Well, some people down here are mad against the US because of "little things like that" against our progress, but it is up to our government to be loyal to us. Imagine what the US did to the people in the Middle East?

I see there is too much hate against those towers.

Just think, if you live in a very nice house with your parents, and you father is the owner of a bank and some one came and crash his car against the living room window and shoot your dog "for no reason"... don't you think some one in your house was doing something wrong to the wrong person?

There are crazy people everywhere but some times you choose the situation.

I will definitely do something against terrorism, not only about that single case, about every single terrorist group including ETA, and then the drugs dealers. But as a North American (sorry, Americans are South Americans too, that is a defect of your school system), I will see what is really going on with my government and put an aye on that.

Today terrorism got real; tomorrow the weather is going to be pretty realistic too or who knows what.

As Richard Bach said, "the world is an Illusion", everything can change at any time for "no reason".

That Tuesday morning I was in my car going to my job and a 9:15 it was already on the news here in Caracas Venezuela. When I got to the office every body was on the TV of the cafeteria. Most of the people had their eyes wed and I shouted to shout up to a girl because she asked, " do you think the pilot is dead" (of course she was blond). That day no one could have his or her work done and after lunch the office was empty.

It was no a crime against the US, It was against humanity.

I hope no one see that as a limit, because right now putting a bomb in a car or in a school would look corny compare with that.

Work toward peace and mutual comprehension.





[Edited by mymemory on 09-15-2001 at 09:28 PM]
 

Kela

macrumors 6502
May 12, 2001
287
1
US
please

With all due respect we do have family and friends to talk about this but individuals here also have good arguments that I am interested in. So MONEKYBUSINESS, please ****.

thnkyou

- kela

p.s. I think its a good idea by the administrators to get a thread up like this since the topic is controversial and allows various insights from people of various backgrounds.
 

Kela

macrumors 6502
May 12, 2001
287
1
US
TO JOHN123

John123, Im not going to make any derogatory remarks. You have an Ivy League education right? I believe you as you articulate well. Howevever, please....is it really necessary to say "i have a nice Ivy League Education"? I mean, modesty is something im sure good Ivy league graduates advocate and furthermore, has the thought ever occured to you that others in this forum may indeed have an Ivy league education too?

- Kela


As John Milton tells Kevin Lomax in The Devil's Advocate, " Dont let them see you coming, Vanity is the mother of all sins".
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,588
1,589
To Kela

Kela,

No disrespect on other members was intended...Stryker was challenging my "credentials" to talk about Middle Eastern affairs and actually asked me whether I was qualified (see page 2 of the thread). I was just trying to respond as best I could. Sorry if that came off wrong.
 

mymemory

macrumors 68020
May 9, 2001
2,495
-1
Miami
Look guys

This are only opinions, it doesn’t matter if I'm right or you are, every one have a different educational level, differences in their values and so on.

What you can do from this treat is to refresh your point of view about the topic, not "what should we do we the terrorist or with our government or with our selves".

Do not get too personal in to this because it is a sensible topic and there are too many things to say about it.
 

mymemory

macrumors 68020
May 9, 2001
2,495
-1
Miami
Originally posted by mnkeybsness
this is getting very stupid, i thought that this was supposed to be https://www.macrumors.com, not http://www.let'sbsaboutterrorism.com. crikey...sure i think what has happened is terrible, but come on people, don't you have friends and family to talk to about all this?


Man, this is not a "gringos only" kind of problem. This was a crime against humanity. If the US is going to war, that is going to affect me directly, just because 60% of the gas you put in your car is produce in my country and 80% of the electronic equipment we buy down here (including this computer) are made in yours.

This world is not just Apple computers or Quake games only. You haven't realized the dimension of this problem.

Besides, the name of my president was mention in CNN by some one in your government; together with Fidel Castro, those are not good news. I hate my president, juts imagine Don King as the president of the US, and I wish mine had half the knowledge of Don King. Just to tell you a General (down here) put fire to 2 soldiers because the came late from the weekend, they died, that general is free because is a friend of our president and he said, “I see no case here”.

If you have a spare bomb I’ll glad to tell you where you can drop it.

But just imagine, the balance is getting out of control and is going to affect us all.

Ps. The US was expecting a war like this for a long time.
 

elfin buddy

macrumors 6502a
Sep 16, 2001
608
0
Tuttlingen, Germany
To: Stryker and john123

I hope the both of you are done fighting so the forum can get on with what really matters. Did it ever occur to you that nobody in the forum outside of yourselves really gives a damn who is "qualified" to talk about the Middle East? I believe that anyone who has been touched by this horrible crime should have a say. And everyone on Earth has somehow been touched by this. I don't live in the USA but my life has been changed very much by those terrorists. And I am very angry about this. My own sister was almost killed. Thousands of people were killed on Tuesday and more people are dying from complications each day. So why are you fighting over who is better qualified? Both of you seem like intelligent individuals to me so how about putting your heads together and seeing what you can come up with. Both of you claim to have lost friends or family in this attack but thats not all you've lost. If this attack hadn't happened, do you think that you two would have been aruging over anything? I think not. This attack is causing us to fight among ourselves because we have different opinions and have no hard evidence of who to blame. Yet. Sit back and think about that.
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,588
1,589
To Elfin

Elfin, while many people are "affected" by the tragedy, and you are right to point that out, that doesn't mean that everyone should "have a say." Specifically, the problem comes from the fact that a reaction to Tuesday's events, whether it comes from just the U.S. or from an international coalition, will likely require lethal force and military action. So, the natural question is -- against whom will such force be directed?

The problem is that far too many people are uneducated and uninformed regarding current affairs and the Middle East in particular. If you had read the entire thread, you would know that Stryker and I have been arguing about who is to blame for Tuesday's attacks -- a very valid and important argument which necessarily entails a discussion of who is qualified on such matters. If we are going to strike back, I would like to make damn sure we don't commit the same heinous crime of the murder of innocent civilians that they did.
 

Stryker

macrumors member
Original poster
Aug 31, 2001
33
0
Re: To Kela

Originally posted by john123
Kela,

No disrespect on other members was intended...Stryker was challenging my "credentials" to talk about Middle Eastern affairs and actually asked me whether I was qualified (see page 2 of the thread). I was just trying to respond as best I could. Sorry if that came off wrong.

Figures, while I will no longer address our SUBSTANTIVE arguement (talking to a brick wall), I do find it totally funny(!!!!) that YOU told Kela that *I* challenged YOUR credientials and asked if you were qualified. Reread your own post. You said that unless *I* had a degree in Political Science (which I do!) and History (which I do), that, basically, I should shut up. I replied that YES, as it turns out I DO have asuch degrees (plus a law degree in case you require that too), and simply said, how about YOU since you seem to be requiring such credientials to speak in this forum. So, don't say such things as if you were MERELY defending yourself. Pathetic. But then again, since you first chimed in on this discussion you have been criticizing me instead of simply sharing your FEELINGS on the tragedy. Go find a new battle.
 

Stryker

macrumors member
Original poster
Aug 31, 2001
33
0
Re: Re: No John124

Originally posted by john123

Look, unless you have a degree in History or Political Science with a specialization in Middle Eastern affairs, you simply don't have the authority to make such broad sweeping generalizations. Simmer down and talk to an expert before you spout off.

As you can see, it was YOU who first brought up the supposed issue of qualifications to simply engage in freedom of speech... such that unless I have a B.A. or Masters (Ironic, that I do, isn't it?) in Poli-Sci that I should shut up and not "spout off". All I said was, how about you?
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,588
1,589
ha ha ha

Your posting amounted to the grown-up version of the traditional Kindergarten creed, "He hit me first."

So what if I challenged your credentials first? I never claimed that I didn't! You were making blanket (and asinine) generalizations, and I said you don't have the authority to do so. I still contend that you aren't qualified on the subject -- any person with half an ounce of common sense or understanding of international relations wouldn't be so genocidal as to say "Death to Islamic Fundamentalists!"

Since you asked for my "FEELINGS on the tragedy," I *feel* like Americans should get a little better understanding of the world in which we live and foreign relations on the whole before suggesting a course of action.

It's a darn shame that people like you -- the alleged "educated" of American society -- think with such a low level of sophistication. It bodes very poorly for our society and likely is indirectly the cause of Tuesday's events in the first place.

Anyone for a slightly different slant for anyone who's interested, there was a good article by Thomas Friedman in today's New York Times about the dangers of proceeding without sufficient caution (i.e., bombing like madmen):

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/14/opinion/14FRIE.html

And another interesting tidbit worth reading:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010916/wl/attack_coalition_world_dc_2.html
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,588
1,589
Re: Re: Re: No John124

Originally posted by Stryker
to simply engage in freedom of speech...

Actually, no, what you did wasn't freedom of speech. You should know this since you have a law degree. At the least, it's hate speech, which there are certain regulations on...

I would hope that genocidal rhetoric would have no place in the land of the free and the home of the brave.
 

elfin buddy

macrumors 6502a
Sep 16, 2001
608
0
Tuttlingen, Germany
To john123

I think you missed the point of my message. By saying everyone should have a say, I didn't mean that everyone should be able to tell the military who to attack. I simply meant that everyone has a right to think what they want and express their opinions on this matter without having someone flip on them for not having the same opinions. Opinions are just points of view and everyone has a different one. That's what makes us individuals. People who were affected by this crime should definately have an opinion about it. The fact is that not all opinions are correct. But not all opinions are wrong either. Right now it is just too early to tell which opinions are correct so as far as i'm concerned, all the opinions are right in a way. Since these are opinions, and there isn't enough information to prove or disprove many of them, your arguments with Stryker are going nowhere fast. Both of you are on the same side, so why doesn't one of you act like an adult (which I'm sure you are since you both have like 3 degrees or something...) and give it a rest so others can get on with reading what they care about. I really couldn't care less about what you and Stryker think of eachother and I would bet money that I'm not the only one. If you and Stryker want to have personal arguments, do it in your own emails or on the phone ot something. Just don't do it on my time. Since it would be hypocritical of me to keep arguing like this and just join you and Stryker, this will be my last post about you and Stryker.
 

spikey

macrumors 6502a
Apr 26, 2001
658
0
I would like to point out to u that no religion is evil, and no religion condems certain people. Islam is not at fault in this topic, it is the people that mis interprit it who are evil.
You are sad if u think that islam is the cause of this evil, because it isnt.
You cannot condemn a religion if you do not know the teachings of it.
Personally i dont agree with religion at all, in theory it works but in practice alot of hate filled people use it to justify their actions, and infact religion increases the evil inside these ppl. But i embrace people with different opinions.

You racist people out there need to realise whats right and wrong in this world. and i am right, u r wrong.
Its pathetic the way u have no sense, surely u have all listened to what john lennon said?
Come on ppl youve heard "imagine" take a hint
 

mymemory

macrumors 68020
May 9, 2001
2,495
-1
Miami
God bless us all

I just came from a meeting. This is getting more real than I thought.

1. Hugo Chavez Frias, president of my country is the pupil of Fidel Castro, every body in the latin american comunity knows that.

2. Chavez is supporting the campaing of some political candidate down in Brazil, of course, this last one have the same tendences like Castro.

3. It is VERY factible that most of the terrorist of the far east move to Venezuela and other parts of south america.

The US have to be very carefull and very fast because this may get bigger than we expect.
 

mnkeybsness

macrumors 68030
Jun 25, 2001
2,511
0
Moneyapolis, Minnesota
don't get me wrong, i love the u.s. of a., but seriously, can't we engage in something a little more on topic to this site. go find yourself another forum site about world new and shizit like that. CRIKEY
 
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