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rdstoll

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 15, 2008
273
2
Hey All - I have a 2013 iMac and am getting more and more programs saying they will no longer do software support since I'm only on Ventura 10.15.7.

Have investigated force upgrading OSX to Big Sur or higher but looks like it's not a flawless process and comes with trouble. So is my iMac just junk at this point? It runs great and despite being 10 years old I have no reason to spend money upgrading it.
 

DeltaMac

macrumors G5
Jul 30, 2003
13,488
4,413
Delaware
OK - macOS 10.15.7 is Catalina.
Ventura is the current macOS 13.4 (3 generations beyond your Catalina)

Yes, you CAN upgrade past Catalina, to the current Ventura. You can use Opencore-Patcher to do that.

I have recently upgraded some of my home Macs to the current Ventura, with decent success, I think -- including a 2008 20-inch iMac (my oldest on the OCLP path) to a 2017 MBAir, with best results, IMHO, on a 2010 21.5-inch iMac.

If you want to continue to use your 2013 iMac -- here's one reason to upgrade (without replacing with a newer model.
Cheaper to do (if you are handy with hobby tools, and decide that you want to try) to make sure your iMac is running at its best potential by upgrading to maximum RAM. And, assuming you have either a spinning hard drive, or a Fusion drive -- you can replace with an NVME m.2 drive. I will say that it is not a job for a first-timer, but very worthwhile, ending with performance that will be beyond what you think is good now.
 
Hey All - I have a 2013 iMac and am getting more and more programs saying they will no longer do software support since I'm only on Ventura 10.15.7.

Have investigated force upgrading OSX to Big Sur or higher but looks like it's not a flawless process and comes with trouble. So is my iMac just junk at this point? It runs great and despite being 10 years old I have no reason to spend money upgrading it.

You can, in fact, throw in an NVMe m.2 SSD and drop in a 2.5-inch SATA SSD where the original spinner hard drive used to live, to use as a second internal data drive (whilst using the NVMe as your boot drive). As @DeltaMac noted, this will give your iMac new life.

Given what’s involved with getting inside your iMac (well worth it, but best to plan ahead and do all the work at once, for reasons made evident by the iFixit repair guide, as they sell the kit you’ll absolutely need for properly opening and also replacing the screen adhesive when putting it back together again), you will also want to upgrade your RAM to its maximum, if it isn’t already.

And if you‘re feeling really adventurous (and are comfortable working with the internals of electronics), with this revision of the iMac, the late 2013 models (so long as you don’t have the base 21.5-inch 2.7GHz version), you may also be able to upgrade your CPU. But for the most part, maximizing your RAM, putting in an NVMe m.2 SSD, and, optionally, a SATA 2.5-inch SSD (to replace the hard drive) will really help with system performance once you use OCLP to upgrade to Monterey or Ventura.

Your iMac is far, far from “junk”!
 

gilby101

macrumors 68030
Mar 17, 2010
2,550
1,368
Tasmania
Never mind the well meaning posts from @DeltaMac and @B S Magnet suggesting internal upgrades, just add an external USB SSD as your boot drive. Their solutions will be faster, but an external SSD is more than good enough.

And you do need OCLP to update to recent macOS. Not too hard - just need to be prepared for a few mistakes on the way. Make sure you have a good backup before you start!
 
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paardenkapper

macrumors regular
Apr 8, 2023
194
121
Germany
Just in case you decide to upgrade your hardware (an ssd upgrade is fairly easy and boost system performance immensly) you can dual-boot Catalina and Ventura for example if you add another partition.

If you're still using a spinning disk or a fusion drive be aware that they're likely to fail after 10 years of use anyway.
 
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rdstoll

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jul 15, 2008
273
2
Thank you so much for these suggestions. I'm willing to put in the sweat equity to get this done, but all my experience thus far in tweaking systems is on Windows PCs. Thanks!
 

posguy99

macrumors 68020
Nov 3, 2004
2,282
1,531
So is my iMac just junk at this point? It runs great and despite being 10 years old I have no reason to spend money upgrading it.
Why would it be junk? Does it somehow magically no longer do what you need it to do in the way you want it done?
 
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Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
28,454
12,572
OP:

The iMac may indeed be "upgradeable".
But at "ten years in", it might be time to start thinking "new Mac" before you put too much money into the existing one...
 
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floral

macrumors 65816
Jan 12, 2023
1,010
1,230
Earth
OP:

The iMac may indeed be "upgradeable".
But at "ten years in", it might be time to start thinking "new Mac" before you put too much money into the existing one...
I wouldn't start thinking "new Mac" until a new one's released.
 

Aethelwulf

macrumors newbie
Jul 2, 2014
4
2
I have a late 2012 27" iMac that is stuck at Catalina. It still runs everything I really need, although won't update to the newer versions of some software. The most intensive thing i ask of it is post processing astrophotographs, but it's hobby stuff not commercial , so speed isn't crucial. However, the fusion drive is going to go someday, and the USB buss is getting wonky. If there was a new 27" iMac, I'd buy it today. I'll probably plunk for a Mac mini and a studio monitor someday soon. Or maybe I'll buy a new telescope and wait for the iMac to break.
 
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raziel101

macrumors regular
Sep 20, 2010
178
171
Vancouver, Canada
I have a late 2012 27" iMac that is stuck at Catalina. It still runs everything I really need, although won't update to the newer versions of some software. The most intensive thing i ask of it is post processing astrophotographs, but it's hobby stuff not commercial , so speed isn't crucial. However, the fusion drive is going to go someday, and the USB buss is getting wonky. If there was a new 27" iMac, I'd buy it today. I'll probably plunk for a Mac mini and a studio monitor someday soon. Or maybe I'll buy a new telescope and wait for the iMac to break.
I have the late 2012 27" iMac as will with the 720gb SSD. I upgraded the RAM to 32GB and this machine still runs incredibly fast that I can't justify a new iMac..... but stuck at Catalina so need to figure out how I can try to get Ventura on it.
 

JCBenson

macrumors newbie
Mar 9, 2024
8
2
I also have a Late 2013 27 inch iMac that was having software (Turbotax) incompatibility problems a year ago prompting me to upgrade the OS to Big Sur (11.7) using "Patched Sur". I've again got the same software problem with Turbotax and additionally Office 2021 with MS saying they will not run or support upgrades beyond three OS versions (back to Monterey). I'm looking at upgrading to Ventura using "OpenCore Legacy Patcher" to solve these problems, but am concerned about it working with my previous upgrade to Big Sur using "Patched Sur". Do I have a problem?
 
I also have a Late 2013 27 inch iMac that was having software (Turbotax) incompatibility problems a year ago prompting me to upgrade the OS to Big Sur (11.7) using "Patched Sur". I've again got the same software problem with Turbotax and additionally Office 2021 with MS saying they will not run or support upgrades beyond three OS versions (back to Monterey). I'm looking at upgrading to Ventura using "OpenCore Legacy Patcher" to solve these problems, but am concerned about it working with my previous upgrade to Big Sur using "Patched Sur". Do I have a problem?

No, you don’t. What you do is you add a partition for the new version of macOS you’re planning to add.

When you run OCLP for the version of macOS you want to add to your Mac and to prepare the USB drive from which the OCLP-patched installer will be, you will still go through with booting from the USB drive. But as with other macOS installers, there are additional tools from the menubar (either under “Window” or “Utilities”, depending on which version of the macOS/OS X installer one uses).

One of those tools is Disk Utility. Open it. On the left of Disk Utility’s screen, click on the physical hard drive in your iMac. You should see the existing partition with the patched Big Sur nested within it. That’s one such partition (an APFS partition).

So what you’ll do is select your physical hard drive, then use the “partition tool” (one of the main Disk Utility tool buttons) to add a partition. It means, of course, that you have ample space on your hard drive (SSD) to add in a second OS (check into that before you begin all of this andif needed, move personal data files from your desktop/downloads to a separate drive). If you have, for instance, a 1TB SSD, and Big Sur and all the data on there only take up, say, 300GB, then you should still have around 700GB free on the hard drive.

If you were partition the drive with the partition tool to make two partitions, as half-and-half (500GB for each partition), the Big Sur partition will be resized down to 500GB, giving it about 200GB of free space. The new partition (which also needs to be APFS) will also be 500GB.

Once the partitioning is done, you can quit Disk Utility, which brings you back to the installer welcome screen. Now you can install an OCLP-patched Monterey/Ventura/Sonoma to the new, second partition, and it will not affect your first partition with patched Big Sur on it.
 
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JCBenson

macrumors newbie
Mar 9, 2024
8
2
Thanks for the advise! I've got a 3.12 TB internal APFS Fusion Drive that has 2.16 TB (6.79 GB purgeable?) available. However, it has a configuration that I'm not sure how it happened or what to do about it (see graphics).
Storage.png
Fusion Drive.png
Container disc2.png
Somehow it is "shared by 7 volumes" which somehow occurred when I upgraded to Big Sur twice (reverted to Catalina troubleshooting a problem, then did it again). The two "Macintosh HD"s appear on my desktop along with "Macintosh HD - Data-1", and because they've not caused a problem, I've just let them alone . . . . until now. One of the Macintosh HDs apparently contains all of my files under my user name, while the other one contains only duplicate general folders/files, but no "users". The Macintosh HD - Data-1 doesn't appear to contain anything (all of my files in Macintosh HD - Data. Although the "Container disc2" appears to contain all of the others, I'm not sure where it and the "com.apple.os.update-0..." reside. Also, the applications folder in the "Macintosh HD" with all of my files contains the "Patched Sur" file/folder (uninstall??). Can you help with this mess?

Lastly, by partitioning the HD, I assume the intent is to be able to run either Big Sur or a later OS (Ventura). I don't think I really need to do that, as I don't know of any applications that I would lose going to a later OS (???). Again, thanks for your help!
 

JCBenson

macrumors newbie
Mar 9, 2024
8
2
OK, using "Disc Utility" I selected "Delete APFS Volume" for my extra "Macintosh HD" and "Macintosh HD - Data-1" volumes with nothing affected on my machine. The Fusion Drive now shows "shared by 5 volumes", all of which have a function. From here do I proceed with the upgrade to Ventura OS using "OpenCore Legacy Patcher", or do I need to partition my HD first and/or delete the "Patched Sur" files?
 
OK, using "Disc Utility" I selected "Delete APFS Volume" for my extra "Macintosh HD" and "Macintosh HD - Data-1" volumes with nothing affected on my machine. The Fusion Drive now shows "shared by 5 volumes", all of which have a function. From here do I proceed with the upgrade to Ventura OS using "OpenCore Legacy Patcher", or do I need to partition my HD first and/or delete the "Patched Sur" files?

Someone else ought to chime in here, just to check my work…

If you’re still running with a Fusion drive (basically, that’s a spinning SATA HDD coupled with an NVMe m.2-styled SSD blade, hence the “fusion”), it is probably not advised to try for Ventura or later (or Big Sur or later, for that matter). The reason for this has to do with the nature of APFS, which was designed from the outset to work optimally with SSDs, or solid-state drives. With Big Sur and later, APFS became the standard upon which the post-Catalina macOS builds are installed.

When I offered some tips your way earlier in the thread, I was operating under the premise you were using nothing but SSDs (whether a SATA SSD, an NVMe SSD, or both) inside your system.

That would work as an all-solid-state drive “Fusion” setup which would be perfect for your iMac, but this also means having to buy the SATA SSD (to swap out the old, spinning HDD — 21.5-inch linked; 27-inch instructions also available) and a display seal kit — 21.5 / 27 — after opening your iMac to make the fairly straightforward swapping out of the 3.5-inch SATA hard disk drive (HDD) with a 2.5-inch SATA solid-state drive (SSD). To my knowledge, Apple only configured models in the “Fusion” configuration to mate an HDD with the NVMe SSD blade — not SATA SSD with NVMe SSD.

Once that’s done, you will then have two options: stay “Fusion” and let the Mac treat the new SATA SSD and the NVMe SSD blade as a unified/Fusion drive, or to treat them as discrete hard drives (where putting macOS on the NVMe blade, and your personal files on the SATA SSD).

So, to recap:

If you plan to go from Big Sur all the way up to Sonoma, via OCLP, you will need to swap out the spinning HDD inside your iMac with a SATA SSD. You will also need a display seal kit. This does mean opening up your iMac, which is a big ask if you’re new to it, but with the help of the iFixit instructions, it is also totally doable and perfect for, say, a weekend project.

If you need some tips on the kind of SATA SSD you should consider getting for Big Sur on up to Sonoma, let us know. The main thing is that the SSD has built-in DRAM (which helps significantly to speed things up, although DRAM is typically only available on mid-price and up SSDs by the Samsungs, Seagates, WDs, SanDisks, and similar major brands).

But in the end: you’ll want to invest in all-solid-state storage to get the most and best out of your iMac once you leave the macOS 10.x era.

I’m sorry I wasn’t able to share this with you sooner.
 

JCBenson

macrumors newbie
Mar 9, 2024
8
2
Thanks again! You're right, I'm "new to it" (looked at an hour long "how to" video to swap out the HD, and not sure I want to tackle that?), but I've been running a Mac since about 1987, initially on the 9" screen Mac at work with a slightly more capable desk top machine at home (all of a 40 MB HD), and several others since. I purchased this iMac in early 2014 just before I retired, with as much capability as I could get. It's the original configuration with the exception that I've upped the RAM to 32 GB.

That said, I've been running Big Sur for a little over a year now with no problems except for the software incompatibility discussed which you said I shouldn't be able to do. I think I do have a solid state HD (APPLE SSD SD0128F, see below graphic), or is that the "blade" you mentioned? If my "Fusion" drive is a SSD, am I then configured (see 2nd graphic) to proceed with the OCLP upgrade to Ventura (Sonoma??) without doing the drive partitioning you mentioned earlier? Delete the "Patched Sur" from my applications folder?

SATA.png

Storage 2.png
 

Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Oct 28, 2015
9,369
11,512
I think I do have a solid state HD (APPLE SSD SD0128F, see below graphic), or is that the "blade" you mentioned? If my "Fusion" drive is a SSD, am I then configured (see 2nd graphic) to proceed with the OCLP upgrade to Ventura (Sonoma??)
You have a “blade” AHCI PCIe SSD and a spinning SATA HDD configured as a Fusion Drive. This is not a “pure” SSD setup.
 
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Thanks again! You're right, I'm "new to it" (looked at an hour long "how to" video to swap out the HD, and not sure I want to tackle that?), but I've been running a Mac since about 1987, initially on the 9" screen Mac at work with a slightly more capable desk top machine at home (all of a 40 MB HD), and several others since. I purchased this iMac in early 2014 just before I retired, with as much capability as I could get. It's the original configuration with the exception that I've upped the RAM to 32 GB.

Oooh. You have the 27-inch variant. Nice! The 21.5-inch variant, the one I have, can also have RAM upgraded, but caps out at 16GB and requires opening the front glass the same way one gets at the hard disk drive (i.e., the iFixit steps linked in my previous reply). The 27-inch has that handy RAM cover on the rear which makes access a lot easier.

That said, I've been running Big Sur for a little over a year now with no problems except for the software incompatibility discussed which you said I shouldn't be able to do.

That’s impressive and interesting, honestly.

This may be a situation in which Apple devised a way to prioritize system file access/use to the SSD blade portion (more on that in a sec), and reserved the lesser-accessed files (like personal/user files) to the HDD.

I mean, this is how “Fusion” was envisioned to begin with, but Fusion also came about (the Mavericks era) well before the arrival of APFS (High Sierra and up).

I think I do have a solid state HD (APPLE SSD SD0128F, see below graphic), or is that the "blade" you mentioned?

Yes. Correct.

The late 2013 iMacs shipped with a receptacle for the Apple version of the NVMe/PCIe SSD blade (in 2014, to save costs, Apple didn’t populate the receptacle on the main board for units which were not ordered with Fusion drives, despite the contacts on the board still being present). Fusion-equipped models actually use the receptacle; models like mine, which shipped only with the HDD, have the receptacle, but is empty.

That’s the “blade” in question. The form factor of an NVMe SSD — whether the standard m.2 or the proprietary Apple-style — looks like a thin “blade”. In this case, the “blade” is 80mm (8cm) in length — or, size “2280” (they also come in “2242”, “2260”, and even a very long “22110”, with 2280 being most common).

Here’s a standard m.2 NVMe SSD form factor:

713h+shZfQL.jpg


Here’s an Apple version with proprietary connectors:

1710281952820.png



Here’s an inexpensive adapter which enables one to use a standard m.2 blade with the Apple-proprietary receptacle found on the rMBPs, MBAs, and iMacs of ca. 2013:

1710282113395.png




If my "Fusion" drive is a SSD, am I then configured (see 2nd graphic) to proceed with the OCLP upgrade to Ventura (Sonoma??) without doing the drive partitioning you mentioned earlier? Delete the "Patched Sur" from my applications folder?

View attachment 2358483

So yes, it looks like your iMac shipped with the 128GB SSD blade (more accurately, 121GB, with 7GB “over-provisioning”, which is a common feature for SSDs of all kinds) alongside a 3TB HDD. Your system reports “3.12 TB” because it has the 3TB HDD + 120GB SSD combined in “Fusion” configuration. To your system, outside of Disk Utility, your “Macintosh HD” is one logical drive.

Since 2013, the cost of much higher capacity NVMe SSD blades have come down a lot — to the point where picking up a decent, 1TB SSD blade (with on-board DRAM), plus Apple connector-adapter, can be done for less than USD$90 (and that’s regular price, with sales being frequent). It’s very much doable. Heck, that alone might be all you’d want if you are thinking of doing a step-by-step upgrade at some point. Add in a 2.5-inch SATA SSD — available in increments of 1TB, 2TB, 4TB, and 8TB — to replace the 3.5-inch HDD, and you’d be set for the rest of the iMac’s long life to come. :)

[Yes, I’m on team “SSD everything” to eke the most — and best — performance on vintage Macs, so I admit that bias. Heck, I upgraded my PowerPC Macs with SSDs, and even on those much slower PATA buses, it made a significant difference.]


If you do, ultimately, pursue an SSD drive upgrade, pick up a copy of Carbon Copy Cloner to clone your patched Big Sur, if you want to keep your settings/configurations/etc., to an external drive drive before changing the internals.

Then, after the new SSD(s) are in place, you should be able to clone that back to internal storage. From there, you can then upgrade the patched Big Sur to Ventura or Sonoma. Or, you can install an OCLP-patched Ventura/Sonoma fresh on the new internal drive(s).

I hope I haven’t overcomplicated your options and planning here, but this kind of upgrade will be well worth your while in the long run. :)
 

JCBenson

macrumors newbie
Mar 9, 2024
8
2
Wow! A lot of information. While I'm I'm definitely interested in achieving my "iMac's long life", probably with a HD upgrade that you described, I'm a little leery of the opening the machine (removing the display) right now to achieve that. I'm not saying I won't try that later, but my more pressing need at the moment is being able to run TurboTax to meet Uncle Sam's deadline of the 15th of next month (also upgrade MS Outlook so I can again receive/send emails). So . . . . . . . , can I upgrade to Ventura or Sonoma with the iMac configured as I have it currently (using OCLP, or Patched Sur???)? Or, do I have to alter that configuration before proceeding?

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it, and your expertise relative to these type of issues!
 
Wow! A lot of information. While I'm I'm definitely interested in achieving my "iMac's long life", probably with a HD upgrade that you described, I'm a little leery of the opening the machine (removing the display) right now to achieve that. I'm not saying I won't try that later, but my more pressing need at the moment is being able to run TurboTax to meet Uncle Sam's deadline of the 15th of next month (also upgrade MS Outlook so I can again receive/send emails). So . . . . . . . , can I upgrade to Ventura or Sonoma with the iMac configured as I have it currently (using OCLP, or Patched Sur???)? Or, do I have to alter that configuration before proceeding?

I think, given your immediate situation, you might be best off doing the most conservative upgrade from Big Sur to get you to use TurboTax — namely, using OCLP to move up one macOS version to Monterey. Get that on there, do the TurboTax thing, and once that’s behind you, come back to the longer-term plans.


Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it, and your expertise relative to these type of issues!

No worries! That’s what folks on the EIM forum enjoy doing. :)
 
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JCBenson

macrumors newbie
Mar 9, 2024
8
2
Again, thanks! Just to summarize, go for OS upgrading using OCLP with the current machine HD configuration and that its running Big Sur from a previous upgrade using Patched Sur? Why to only Monterey instead of Ventura or Sonoma?
 

Amethyst1

macrumors G3
Oct 28, 2015
9,369
11,512
You can also break the Fusion Drive into the two separate drives and use the SSD on its own for the OS and applications if 120 GB is enough for you, or get an inexpensive USB 3.0 SSD and boot from that, bypassing the internal Fusion Drive. That’s what I’ve been doing for the past four years. No issues.
 
Again, thanks! Just to summarize, go for OS upgrading using OCLP with the current machine HD configuration and that its running Big Sur from a previous upgrade using Patched Sur? Why to only Monterey instead of Ventura or Sonoma?

Why?

Because a minimum of surprises is what you need at this moment if what you need right now is the ability to run a time-sensitive application (TurboTax) without needing to lose time troubleshooting issues with the OS.

Remember how a patch, no matter how good it runs, is still a patch, and there can be unforeseen surprises whenever one makes a major, multi-version jump forward, such as going from a patched Big Sur to a patched Sonoma, on hardware officially unsupported by Apple (such as the late 2013 iMacs dropped after Catalina).

That said, I wouldn’t expect anything in particular to have trouble, but you’re also relying on a mode of storage (the HDD component of Fusion) which the latest versions of macOS were not optimized to use. If all TurboTax needs is a supported macOS build, go for the minimum, least disruptive path.

After your filing work is behind you, then that’s the time to get more ambitious with upgrades.
 
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