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Is Apple using BIOS?
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Don't you love the vagueness of a statement like the Quote in there? "We can't tell you yet ... but we will as soon as we reasonably can." It does appear to indicate (at least leaning towards) that the new systems will not be configured anywhere near the transition boxes. JMO <though I guess it also leaves open the possibility that the present BIOS in the transition boxes MAY actually be in the shipping computers ... LOL>Macrumors said:
What is BIOS?
[Note from the moderator: This question is answered later in the thread. Do not post further answers to this question.]
[Note from the moderator: This question is answered later in the thread. Do not post further answers to this question.]
I would think we'll probably have motherboards very similar to what we have now, with that same open firmware, with just an X86 instead of a powerpc, plus all the bus changes that need to go along with that. But wtf do I know, I would have bet my life apple would never move to x86...
BIOS can burn in hell. Open Firmware is a million times better...
Option on Startup -graphical view of all possible ways to start up. (may take a bit). Can use mouse.
F3 on Startup -no startup sound
C on Startup -force startup from CD
X on Startup -Force startup into OS X (on dualboot system, is not permanent)
T on Startup -FireWire Target Disk Mode
Command+Option+P+R on Startup -Zap PRAM
Command+S on Startup -Single User Mode
Command+V on Startup -Verbose Startup
Command+Option+N+V on Startup -Open Firmware prompt
Eat that BIOS!
Option on Startup -graphical view of all possible ways to start up. (may take a bit). Can use mouse.
F3 on Startup -no startup sound
C on Startup -force startup from CD
X on Startup -Force startup into OS X (on dualboot system, is not permanent)
T on Startup -FireWire Target Disk Mode
Command+Option+P+R on Startup -Zap PRAM
Command+S on Startup -Single User Mode
Command+V on Startup -Verbose Startup
Command+Option+N+V on Startup -Open Firmware prompt
Eat that BIOS!
Not really, it's looking more likely we will be getting something that basically ends up being an Apple PC.l008com said:
But not something like you can buy from Dell, this will be something using parts from Intel's next generation parts bin.
Though you probably wouldn't know it since your next iBook x86 will look and feel a lot like your current iBook G4.
This isn't bad, since Apple can use more industry standard parts than they do now and integrate new technology much quicker also.
And no more daily calls to IBM/Freescale to see if they are going to actually deliver chips this week.
Relax, none of those things depend on Open Firmware. OF is just a programming toolkit, and other OF-based BIOSes (yes, Open Firmware is just a BIOS!) don't have those features. In other words, Apple added the coolness. They can add that coolness to whatever toolkit they want. Remember, they're Apple, they worry about these things.Mechcozmo said:
And besides, is somebody who gets this worked up over Calculator really going to allow a cheesy boot ROM?
I doubt the final firmware will be a Phoenix BIOS -- there is no real need for it, as OS X does not depend on the presence of an IBM PC compatible BIOS like Windows does. Remember that on all Apple products except the Power Mac, a custom logic board will pretty much be a necessity if present product quality and functionality is to remain; there's simply no way to make something as desirable as an iMac G5 or a Mac mini with no custom electronics. The return of OF or something next-gen coming out of Intel is highly possible.
Unfortunately, "Macintosh computers using Intel microprocessors do not use Open Firmware."
from: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/universal_binary/universal_binary.pdf page 47
from: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/universal_binary/universal_binary.pdf page 47
Maybe the specific things mentioned (the key combos on boot) can be added to a standard PC BIOS, but something like the plug-and-play capability that can be provided for PCI cards on OF systems sure as hell can't be. Check out some of the posts in the thread linked in the story.iMeowbot said:
iMeowbot said:Ah, yes, a boot ROM is going to be worthless if you can't write games in Forth with it
It was an example... sheesh... last time I checked, more features without getting in the way+slowing down was a GOOD THING.
Like that F3 startup thing. Do you know HOW MANY TIMES in class I've been interrupted by a ****ing ~dong dong dling dling diiiing diiing ddeeeeeeiiiiing ddeeiingng aaaeeeiiiiinnnggg~ noise? Far too many. I just press F3 and no noise! None! All quiet! Yes, this is a rant because I HATE THOSE NOISES and then the ~BVVVRT~ of each and every anti-virus program starting and the other "helping" applications staring each with their own beep... it is really annoying.
</rant>
First, where does this ludicrous idea come from that Apple are going to use a standard PC BIOS? Of course they're not going to do that.WM. said:
Second, where does this ludicrous idea come from that Apple, a company that has produced several amazing operating systems, their share of interaally developed boot ROMs (such as in the original Mac and earlier machines), a very Apple interface atop the off-the-shelf iPod software, and on and on, is suddenly no longer able to do this?
(Big, big hint: A standard PC BIOS can't boot an HFS+ volume.)
Well, that's the whole question, isn't it? I certainly hope they don't, and I do have enough confidence in them to assume for now that what they ship indeed won't be the Phoenix BIOS in the developer transition kits.iMeowbot said:
However, we know they aren't using OF, and the Universal Binaries PDF as a whole doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence in the x86 Mac platform being very Mac-like (lots of "don't expect the firmware/processor/whatever to do X for you anymore", seems to me).
Yeah. I think it's inherent in us Mac geeks to worry that what we love most about Apple will suddenly disappear...
WM. said:
Well yeah. A lot of this isn't really about Open Firmware or a lack thereof, though. It's about no longer basing logic boards around CHRP. All the support code for that has to be written for each logic board. The OS needs to expose the hardware eventually, that's where device support is going to hook in. Apple aren't going to bother with all that for an off-the-shelf development board that isn't even going to be sold as a real model.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the missing information will magically reappear on production hardware.
Just as long as it doesn't do that lame glitch and then show info and then show code and then resize the monitor and reset it and then show more stuff and then if you are fast enough can read what key to push to enter BIOS and then some lame graphics and then a dumb windows chime and then WINDOWS no. Accessing BIOS I always thought was ugly. I like Apple's way better.
What does a BIOS apple mean for end users? Probably the most significant would be really excessive times for sleep/unsleep functions. We're talking 10-15 seconds here, more more of that sub-1 second unsleep time that you get currently when you open and close your iBook or Powerbook.
[i[That[/i] is why you wouldn't want a BIOS apple as an end user. Oh, and you'd likely lose features such as option key at boot to select the boot volume, firewire disk mode, and several others.
[i[That[/i] is why you wouldn't want a BIOS apple as an end user. Oh, and you'd likely lose features such as option key at boot to select the boot volume, firewire disk mode, and several others.
The most likely scenario for the BIOS of the Mactel computers (and future PCs) is the Extensible Firmware Interface (ESI).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface
Yep, this is far more likely than a clone of the IBM PC arrangement.IJ Reilly said:
"With the EFI model, however, manufacturers of motherboard hardware will be free to write their own driver for their own hardware the way companies making peripheral devices write drivers for the OS."
Intel have to be drooling over the possibility of having their parts driving a machine that doesn't act like it was designed in 1979. It's not just Apple fans, Intel will want these Macs to be slick and thoroughly modern too.
Mechcozmo said:
Wikipedia definition:
In computing, the Basic Input-Output System or BIOS is primitive software code embedded within a computer hardware system whose main functions are to provide a visual display of the system to a monitor on startup of the system, have basic key access to a keyboard and provide low-level communication services among hardware components
Doesn't Open Firmware fit this definition???
Isn't Open Firmware then another BIOS?
The rumor "Is Apple using BIOS?" Is like saying "Is Apple using a keyboard?"
Besides, I'm sure that if Apple had to scrap OF, they did so for technical reasons. And I'm sure that Apple will replace it with something as close as possible to what it's users are familiar with...
Mechcozmo said:
I'm sure that the new Apple BIOS will retain most, if not all of this functionality. And, don't worry, the Intel Macs will still have the gray Apple logo and that spinny progress wheel at the bottom. C'mon, this is Apple we're talking about. They'll make it good.
iMeowbot said:
That's not quite how boot works... At the risk of oversimplifying, BIOS reads the first sector and executes it, simple as that, so it is file layout independent. Afterall, filesystem is just a way of organising recycled electrons on the disk platter...
iMeowbot said:
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.p...sche.txt&sortOrder=Sort by Date&detail=medium
Thought this link was a fun read too.