iTunes / Music question

[Tonya99]

Hi,

I apologise in advance if this question is in the wrong area or is asking a very common question.

Could someone please help me with a suggestion? Basically I use an up to date laptop for everything except music. For music I use an old 2015 iMac (it can't do anything else as it's so old) with Mojave and iTunes. I do this because my music library is too big for Music to handle and I have never found anything better for me than iTunes.

The Mac is nearly dead, it can't do anything other than iTunes. So I want to get the latest iMac but don't want to use Music. My library has over 200,000 songs and is always expanding, as well as tons of playlists. I know there is a limit on Music and I tried it when it first came out, it was just so slow it couldn't do anything.

If I move to a new Mac could I download an old version of iTunes to keep using it (12.9.5.5 is acceptable but no later) or will it not recognise it? I know there is no support function but that's fine, I don't use Apple for downloads so only have a handful of stuff that I can easily discard.

If not, what is the best solution for either an identical version of iTunes or something which exceeds it but keeps the basic functions? I tried Swinsian before but it just copied what was in the iTunes or Music library and didn't put new playlists in order but added them to the bottom (I make new playlists all the time). I don't know if it can work without them but still copy an old iTunes library across and then add new stuff via Swinsian but I'm willing to do that if nothing is more suitable.

I also still use iPod so need to update that with changes etc.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Many thanks
Tonya

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

You have several options but let's correct a few things first. Music is basically iTunes stripped of the non-music stuff. With music, it works at least as well as iTunes. Best I know, it has no "tighter" limits than any such limits that may exist for iTunes. In short: it should "just work" at least as well as iTunes. Some will argue it works BETTER than iTunes because it is stripped of all of the other media types... conceptually making it a simpler app. Even the iDevice synching is offloaded to Finder.

Music works fine with old iPods (actually that's the combination of Music for managing the music and Finder for synching to iPods.). I have an iPod Classic 5th generation still in active use with a very new Silicon Mac. No problems at all.

No, iTunes doesn't run on latest Silicon Macs. It is deprecated for Music. So if you want to step into Silicon, you need to adopt Music or seek out some third party app, which is probably NOT going to support that iPod.

Your Options:

1. Fix that 2015. Whatever is "killing" it might be repairable. Typically with 2015s, it's a dying HDD or Fusion drive. Replace that with a new drive and you can basically stick with it for this purpose. There's many videos on YouTube to show how this is done or just about any Mac-related shop will do it for you as a service. If you go this way, I suggest a fast SSD drive instead of an HDD. Then it might feel like a new iMac.
2. If 2015 is basically dead and not repairable but you just prefer iTunes, seek out a late generation Mac in the used market and let it take over this job. That should be good for another 3-5 years and you can keep using iTunes as music library manager "as is." Make sure, you can install "Mojave" on the one you choose to keep iTunes. Here's the list of Macs compatible with Mojave...
   • MacBook (Early 2015 to 2017)
   • MacBook Air (Mid 2012 to 2017, because it’s the same as 2015 model)
   • MacBook Pro (Mid 2012 to 2018)
   • Mac mini (Late 2012 to late-2018). If you want to go this way, I suggest one of these for this single use purpose. You could use a TV as monitor if you didn't already have one.
   • iMac (Late 2012 to mid-2017)
   • iMac Pro (all models)
   • Mac Pro (Late 2013, plus mid-2010 and mid-2012 models with recommended Metal-capable GPU)
3. Buy yourself a cheap Windows PC and switch to using the Windows version of iTunes. A Windows version of the Music app just came out but if one doesn't install it, they can keep using iTunes for Windows. Since there is tons of competition outside the walled garden, you could get yourself a Mac Mini-like PC with gigantic internal or external storage for all that music for MUCH less than what a storage-upgraded Silicon Mac would take... like maybe this one (twin m.2 slots inside could hold up to 16TB, else hook up huge storage to one of the ports). Bonus: you'll also have full Windows should you have any other "bootcamp-like" need that ARM Windows emulation can't handle.
4. Go Silicon and either pay way too much (relatively) for big internal storage for all that music or put the iTunes music library on an external drive and make the connection so that Music will look externally for the library. This works fine as long as the external drive stays connected while you are using Music.

 

[Fishrrman]

If you want to keep using iTunes (and NOT Music) for now, there's an answer:
"Retroactive".

Get it here:

Release Retroactive 2.1 · cormiertyshawn895/Retroactive

Retroactive only receives limited support. You should transition from Retroactive to a wide range of supported apps, many of which are built into macOS or free to download. Learn how to transition ...

github.com

(click the blue "download" button).

It's just been updated for better compatibility with Sonoma.

I don't use "Music.app" with Sonoma, AT ALL -- because the only thing I really used iTunes for was the free internet radio channels, and Apple REMOVED them from "Music". By using iTunes, I get them back...

 

[Tonya99]

You have several options but let's correct a few things first. Music is basically iTunes stripped of the non-music stuff. With music, it works at least as well as iTunes. Best I know, it has no "tighter" limits than any such limits that may exist for iTunes. In short: it should "just work" at least as well as iTunes. Some will argue it works BETTER than iTunes because it is stripped of all of the other media types... conceptually making it a simpler app. Even the iDevice synching is offloaded to Finder.

Music works fine with old iPods (actually that's the combination of Music for managing the music and Finder for synching to iPods.). I have an iPod Classic 5th generation still in active use with a very new Silicon Mac. No problems at all.

No, iTunes doesn't run on latest Silicon Macs. It is deprecated for Music. So if you want to step into Silicon, you need to adopt Music or seek out some third party app, which is probably NOT going to support that iPod.

Your Options:

1. Fix that 2015. Whatever is "killing" it might be repairable. Typically with 2015s, it's a dying HDD or Fusion drive. Replace that with a new drive and you can basically stick with it for this purpose. There's many videos on YouTube to show how this is done or just about any Mac-related shop will do it for you as a service. If you go this way, I suggest a fast SSD drive instead of an HDD. Then it might feel like a new iMac.
2. If 2015 is basically dead and not repairable but you just prefer iTunes, seek out a late generation Mac in the used market and let it take over this job. That should be good for another 3-5 years and you can keep using iTunes as music library manager "as is." Make sure, you can install "Mojave" on the one you choose to keep iTunes. Here's the list of Macs compatible with Mojave...
   • MacBook (Early 2015 to 2017)
   • MacBook Air (Mid 2012 to 2017, because it’s the same as 2015 model)
   • MacBook Pro (Mid 2012 to 2018)
   • Mac mini (Late 2012 to late-2018). If you want to go this way, I suggest one of these for this single use purpose. You could use a TV as monitor if you didn't already have one.
   • iMac (Late 2012 to mid-2017)
   • iMac Pro (all models)
   • Mac Pro (Late 2013, plus mid-2010 and mid-2012 models with recommended Metal-capable GPU)
3. Buy yourself a cheap Windows PC and switch to using the Windows version of iTunes. A Windows version of the Music app just came out but if one doesn't install it, they can keep using iTunes for Windows. Since there is tons of competition outside the walled garden, you could get yourself a Mac Mini-like PC with gigantic internal or external storage for all that music for MUCH less than what a storage-upgraded Silicon Mac would take... like maybe this one (twin m.2 slots inside could hold up to 16TB, else hook up huge storage to one of the ports). Bonus: you'll also have full Windows should you have any other "bootcamp-like" need that ARM Windows emulation can't handle.
4. Go Silicon and either pay way too much (relatively) for big internal storage for all that music or put the iTunes music library on an external drive and make the connection so that Music will look externally for the library. This works fine as long as the external drive stays connected while you are using Music.

Hi,

Thanks for all the info and taking the time to respond. You'll be able to tell that I'm not really a regular here and it is best to assume I have no technological experience or knowledge than assume anything.

Firstly, I tried Music on the Mac and it was just so damned slow it couldn't do anything, which is why I kept Mojave and iTunes and, even with the large library and playlists it still basically works fine. So something about Music just upset the Mac and I read a few people saying Music was terrible for speed and large libraries when it first came out. Something about Apple thinking not many people would have large libraries.

For your options:

1. I've tried everything to fix it, nothing worked. The only way I can get it to function now is to only use it for iTunes and nothing else (so no Safari, other apps, MS office, gaming etc). It runs fine if I do just that. However, it is old and I'm ok upgrading to a brand new Mac if I can get it to last a few years. If I can't use iTunes on it, nor fix the Music issue then I'll need to find an alternative. I use laptop for other stuff but even that is getting slower now. If Music does indeed work well, or even better, than iTunes with large libraries then I may just do that. It could be the library was corrupted slightly or when I tried it Music was still having teething problems (it was when Music came out and iTunes no longer had support that I made the change). If I got a new iMac with 16gb unified memory would that sort speed issues out? Or would you suggest going higher?

2. I want to avoid early models if I can and just get a new one and then refurb it when the time comes. Are you sure that iTunes won't be compatible with a new Mac?

3. This actually sounds like a good idea if I use the Mac for everything else and then just the PC for music. The one you linked seems pretty good but the storage will obviously be too low at 1TB. I presume I can plug my EHD in? That's where my music is stored now by the way, on a 5TB EHD (previously a 1TB). Were you thinking I would need a separate monitor for it or partition with something else?

4. This was the original idea, if I just get the latest iMac with 16GB unified memory and then refurb when the time comes a few years later. Are you confident Music will work well with my library and playlists though? As I said, it didn't work before on the existing Mac but it might just have been my timing. This would be the easiest and I know it's an expensive option but I prefer less hassle and more expense.

Thank you again for your help, it was really informative.

 

[Tonya99]

If you want to keep using iTunes (and NOT Music) for now, there's an answer:
"Retroactive".

Get it here:

Release Retroactive 2.1 · cormiertyshawn895/Retroactive

Retroactive only receives limited support. You should transition from Retroactive to a wide range of supported apps, many of which are built into macOS or free to download. Learn how to transition ...

github.com

(click the blue "download" button).

It's just been updated for better compatibility with Sonoma.

I don't use "Music.app" with Sonoma, AT ALL -- because the only thing I really used iTunes for was the free internet radio channels, and Apple REMOVED them from "Music". By using iTunes, I get them back...

Hi and thanks for the answer. So this just makes old apps (such as intel based) work with latest IOS? If so then that would solve everything. Is this reliable though and does it slow down everything else? Can it work in tandem or does it need some form of partitioning. Excuse my ignorance.
Thanks

 

[Fishrrman]

"So this just makes old apps (such as intel based) work with latest IOS? If so then that would solve everything. Is this reliable though and does it slow down everything else? Can it work in tandem or does it need some form of partitioning. Excuse my ignorance.
Thanks"

It just works.
Try it and see for yourself.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Hi,

Thanks for all the info and taking the time to respond. You'll be able to tell that I'm not really a regular here and it is best to assume I have no technological experience or knowledge than assume anything.

Firstly, I tried Music on the Mac and it was just so damned slow it couldn't do anything, which is why I kept Mojave and iTunes and, even with the large library and playlists it still basically works fine. So something about Music just upset the Mac and I read a few people saying Music was terrible for speed and large libraries when it first came out. Something about Apple thinking not many people would have large libraries.

For your options:

1. I've tried everything to fix it, nothing worked. The only way I can get it to function now is to only use it for iTunes and nothing else (so no Safari, other apps, MS office, gaming etc). It runs fine if I do just that. However, it is old and I'm ok upgrading to a brand new Mac if I can get it to last a few years. If I can't use iTunes on it, nor fix the Music issue then I'll need to find an alternative. I use laptop for other stuff but even that is getting slower now. If Music does indeed work well, or even better, than iTunes with large libraries then I may just do that. It could be the library was corrupted slightly or when I tried it Music was still having teething problems (it was when Music came out and iTunes no longer had support that I made the change). If I got a new iMac with 16gb unified memory would that sort speed issues out? Or would you suggest going higher?

2. I want to avoid early models if I can and just get a new one and then refurb it when the time comes. Are you sure that iTunes won't be compatible with a new Mac?

3. This actually sounds like a good idea if I use the Mac for everything else and then just the PC for music. The one you linked seems pretty good but the storage will obviously be too low at 1TB. I presume I can plug my EHD in? That's where my music is stored now by the way, on a 5TB EHD (previously a 1TB). Were you thinking I would need a separate monitor for it or partition with something else?

4. This was the original idea, if I just get the latest iMac with 16GB unified memory and then refurb when the time comes a few years later. Are you confident Music will work well with my library and playlists though? As I said, it didn't work before on the existing Mac but it might just have been my timing. This would be the easiest and I know it's an expensive option but I prefer less hassle and more expense.

Thank you again for your help, it was really informative.

#1 should be fine. Perhaps you were judging it too soon after switching to Music? It may need a while to update for a 200K song library. My own library is not even close to that size so I notice no difference between Music and iTunes in terms of speed.

#2 not compatible without a hack. See post #4. If me, I'd give Music a fresh try though before I go that way. That seems like a bandaid to me. I'd always have doubts of how long that can keep reaching back as macOS updates. It might work for years or it might break in the next macOS update. If it depends on Rosetta 2- which seems probable- Rosetta will almost certainly be dropped, just as the prior Rosetta 1 was dropped.

#3 just because they sell one with only 1TB doesn't mean you are limited to 1TB. There are two slots for internal m.2 storage. You could buy a "bare" one (no storage) and then insert 2 sticks of internal m.2 storage for up to 16TB. If you only need about 5TB now, maybe make that 1 stick of 8TB for now to easily accommodate Windows OS + 5TB for music with a few TB free for your next 100K songs. OR, just plug in that external HD and use it as you do now. Note that if it's a Mac format (probably), you will need to make it a Windows format like maybe ExFAT. If this, I'd get a SECOND drive and copy the music over to it, so I preserve the "as is" just in case.

#4 I'm pretty confident Music will work just fine... but that confidence is grounded in a library 1/10th the size of yours. Music readily worked with my library and preserved my playlists- no issues at all. The safe thing to do here would be to buy yourself a SECOND external drive, copy the entire music library to it and use it with the new Mac. That way you have an easy "fall back" option (to the existing drive) just in case you have any issues. Give it some time after you set it up. Perhaps it needs a bit of time to evolve the library specifically for Music (app)... thus seems slow while it does that and then is as fast when done... like how Spotlight indexing can make the whole Mac seem slow until the indexing is complete.

 

[Pakaku]

I wouldn't get a brand new mac just for music, unless you actually plan on making it your main machine. I'd try to find out what can be done to fix the current one, or find something Intel that's refurbished or second-hand. I'm still running my iTunes on a dedicated 2008 MBP, so I can say you won't need to spend much...

"Worst-case" scenario, find a Windows PC and use that version of iTunes, which is identical to the Mac version. And as far as I know will avoid the whole "can't run because of a new chipset" dilemma for the forseeable future like with Silicon

 

[bogdanw]

Basically I use an up to date laptop for everything except music.

If by up to date you are referring to an Apple Silicon Mac, iTunes 12.9.5.5 doesn’t seem to be working. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/itunes-12-6-5-3-on-macos-catalina-10-15.2184518/page-16

 

[Rychiar]

What do you mean a limit on music? Using music or iTunes Match puts your entire iTunes library in the cloud. I have hundreds of thousands of songs and it works fine and now i can listen on any device wherever i am. You could have switched from iTunes years ago

 

[Tonya99]

#1 should be fine. Perhaps you were judging it too soon after switching to Music? It may need a while to update for a 200K song library. My own library is not even close to that size so I notice no difference between Music and iTunes in terms of speed.

#2 not compatible without a hack. See post #4. If me, I'd give Music a fresh try though before I go that way. That seems like a bandaid to me. I'd always have doubts of how long that can keep reaching back as macOS updates. It might work for years or it might break in the next macOS update. If it depends on Rosetta 2- which seems probable- Rosetta will almost certainly be dropped, just as the prior Rosetta 1 was dropped.

#3 just because they sell one with only 1TB doesn't mean you are limited to 1TB. There are two slots for internal m.2 storage. You could buy a "bare" one (no storage) and then insert 2 sticks of internal m.2 storage for up to 16TB. If you only need about 5TB now, maybe make that 1 stick of 8TB for now to easily accommodate Windows OS + 5TB for music with a few TB free for your next 100K songs. OR, just plug in that external HD and use it as you do now. Note that if it's a Mac format (probably), you will need to make it a Windows format like maybe ExFAT. If this, I'd get a SECOND drive and copy the music over to it, so I preserve the "as is" just in case.

#4 I'm pretty confident Music will work just fine... but that confidence is grounded in a library 1/10th the size of yours. Music readily worked with my library and preserved my playlists- no issues at all. The safe thing to do here would be to buy yourself a SECOND external drive, copy the entire music library to it and use it with the new Mac. That way you have an easy "fall back" option (to the existing drive) just in case you have any issues. Give it some time after you set it up. Perhaps it needs a bit of time to evolve the library specifically for Music (app)... thus seems slow while it does that and then is as fast when done... like how Spotlight indexing can make the whole Mac seem slow until the indexing is complete.

Thanks again for your comments, they make sense and everything you say has helped a great deal. I think you are right that maybe I tried Music too early and should give it another shot. My Mac has so many issues I just want to get rid of it to be honest. I can't do anything on it other than iTunes, it's just too damn slow. Looking in the Activity Monitor has given no clues and if I try to do anything else it will just freeze so it is inoperable. then I have to reinstall from Time Machine. I gave up on it doing anything else last year after many, many hours spent trying to fix it.

I'm happy to go with a new Mac and try Music or, if it is still to slow, just finding an alternative or a hack to use iTunes. I don't even like Music, I much prefer the old school layout of iTunes. Just one of those people who doesn't like change I guess right?

Anyway, thanks again. I really appreciate you taking the time to help.

 

[Tonya99]

I wouldn't get a brand new mac just for music, unless you actually plan on making it your main machine. I'd try to find out what can be done to fix the current one, or find something Intel that's refurbished or second-hand. I'm still running my iTunes on a dedicated 2008 MBP, so I can say you won't need to spend much...

"Worst-case" scenario, find a Windows PC and use that version of iTunes, which is identical to the Mac version. And as far as I know will avoid the whole "can't run because of a new chipset" dilemma for the forseeable future like with Silicon

Thanks for info. I wouldn't be using new Mac just for music but as my main machine for everything. So I would probably get 16GB unified memory to avoid speed issues. I don't mind doing it this way, I'm so sick of my Mac and laptop I just want to start again and have no stress for a few years.

 

[Tonya99]

If by up to date you are referring to an Apple Silicon Mac, iTunes 12.9.5.5 doesn’t seem to be working. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/itunes-12-6-5-3-on-macos-catalina-10-15.2184518/page-16

I will get a new Mac for everything except work and use laptop for work I think. So iTunes would be on a new iMac....if I go that route and Music doesn't work again.
Thanks

 

[Tonya99]

What do you mean a limit on music? Using music or iTunes Match puts your entire iTunes library in the cloud. I have hundreds of thousands of songs and it works fine and now i can listen on any device wherever i am. You could have switched from iTunes years ago

Apparently Music has a limit of 100,000 tunes. I'm on over 200,000. I tried Music and it slowed to a grinding halt. Yes, it was when it first came out so it could have been suffering bugs or teething issues but the library is on an EHD. If I put it in the cloud that would be a pretty large fee right and dependent on being online. My music is offline. Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Fishrrman]

OP:

Again, I'm going to suggest:
Try Retroactive (URL above) to install iTunes on a new Mac.

It just... works.

 

[Rychiar]

Apparently Music has a limit of 100,000 tunes. I'm on over 200,000. I tried Music and it slowed to a grinding halt. Yes, it was when it first came out so it could have been suffering bugs or teething issues but the library is on an EHD. If I put it in the cloud that would be a pretty large fee right and dependent on being online. My music is offline. Or am I misunderstanding you?

I have more music than you and I don’t have any issues and never have. there is definitely no library cap. I add new albums every week on top of all my stuff was That was originally matched or uploaded. I used to have iTunes Match but now i just have apple music and all my old stuff is still there and i pay 5.99 a month for a student music plan which I believe is 9.99 for most people

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Tonya99, I was intuitively confident the 100K limit was not true but sure enough... you are right. However, in discovering that fact, there is much reference to it applying to iTunes too... and much about this affecting social features and iCloud features more so than being a hard limit (though there are some posts of some people saying they can't add songs at the 100K limit).

Since you have more than 100K in your own iTunes library, I have to assume Music would readily host the same volume of songs. I "THINK" I'm reading that the >100K limit applies to limiting what can be done with iCloud turned on in features like iTunes Match and similar. If you are not using iCloud/Match, I don't think you will bump into problems with a library > 100K in spite of some posts suggesting it is not possible to have more than 100K. I suspect those people have iCloud or Match "on" and are bumping into that limit (for iCloud) vs. a hard limit for iTunes or Music.

It might be helpful to know that all songs you may have purchased from iTunes Store do not count against the 100K, so if you have a LOT of those, subtract them from the 200K. I'm going to guess that much of your music is probably ripped form CDs and similar... as towards 200K at 99 cents or more would be a very passionate digital music buyer.

Since iTunes Match uploads ripped music to get songs that can't be matched with iTunes Cloud library offerings, the 100K limit is probably about managing what Apple judges as "too much" iCloud space being allocated to one persons overabundance of unmatchable ripped music.

Online information offers other options, such as segregating songs into more than one iTunes library so that each is BELOW the 100K limit. This could easily be done as a single user or by creating a second+ user on your Mac and then splitting the library into 2 libraries of < 100K songs.

Another option would be to simply PURGE the library into 2 or more based on songs you actually want to regularly listen to vs. those that you don't really care if you ever listen to again. You would still have a library of the latter, but it doesn't need to "clog up" space in the former.

In my own music collection of about 20K songs, I've created playlists of favorites from the "whole" 20K. The playlists reflect all of the music from the bigger collection that I like to enjoy, rarely playing songs beyond what is in those lists. I check the math and only about 23% of the 20K is in all of my many playlists. In other words, if my 20K was conceptually equivalent to your 200K, only about 23% of them tend to be actually enjoyed. If that happened to be true for you too, 200K times 23% could leave you with a curated "best of" library #2 of 46K songs. Maybe your percentage would be 33% or maybe it's 15% but even up to nearly 50% would yield your own "best of" library of songs UNDER the 100K "limit" if you DO want iCloud benefits too? Perhaps this has a place in your thinking?

If so, here's Apple's own article on creating and using multiple Music libraries on a Mac.