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Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
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Mar 15, 2015
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I believe some thing like 10% or 5% of city population lives in apartments not counting Toronto or Vancouver which would be much higher there. And is well the same has the US but the US builds lot of 1 to 5 story apartments. So Canada does not have more apartments than the US and the US does not have more apartments than Canada.

I believe Canada build lots of 6 to 10 stories mid rise apartments in the 50s but than the 60s, 70s, 80s lots of apartments any where from 10 to 20 stories in that time period.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
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I’m discussing the public transit infrastructure laid into place before WWII. Until, basically, the 1970s and 1980s, low-income households tended to be left behind in expressway-gutted, white-flight-drained cities, or relegated to old, rural housing in poor repair. From the 1950s to the early 1990s, the suburbs were being built for people in the middle class (the North American meaning of the term) or working class. This began to shift after the recession of the early 1990s and, in no small part, was linked to the shuttering of manufacturing and industrial activity.

So there was no apartment or houses build for low income and the poor in the US? From 1950 to 1970?
 
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Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
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Mar 15, 2015
933
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I’m discussing the public transit infrastructure laid into place before WWII. Until, basically, the 1970s and 1980s, low-income households tended to be left behind in expressway-gutted, white-flight-drained cities, or relegated to old, rural housing in poor repair. From the 1950s to the early 1990s, the suburbs were being built for people in the middle class (the North American meaning of the term) or working class. This began to shift after the recession of the early 1990s and, in no small part, was linked to the shuttering of manufacturing and industrial activity.

Interesting you talking about LA in south central an area mostly built for low income and the poor mostly low rise apartments and very small houses.

Where in Toronto they moved lot of the poor and low income to Jane and Finch putting them in high rise apartments a very contrast difference of the two cities going down a very different path.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
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Mar 15, 2015
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The second was a lot of cities, including Vancouver (I’m name-dropping that for a reason, hold tight), were building these high-rise towers along where municipal- and provincial-level transportation planners were foreseeing where they would be razing neighbourhoods full of large, but mostly dilapidated, semi-empty houses, to make way for expressways. For a time, many cities expected this to be the new way of city building, and zoned land for high-rises adjacent to potential, high-vehicle-use throughways. This idea was modelled after Le Corbusier’s utopian (but really, just plain dystopian) vision of the modern city, ca. 1926.

But by the time Jane Jacobs left NYC for Toronto, there was strong backlash against this planning trend (one mirroring, in part, what was happening with the Eisenhower Interstate Highway system in the U.S.), as razing entire neighbourhoods and communities, typically non-white, absolutely shattered the social fabric and brought in a lot of airborne lead pollution.

In Toronto, one of those expressways was halted by 1971. To this day, one can still see several high-rise and tall mid-rise 1960s-era apartments built along Spadina Road, where the Spadina Expressway was slated to be built…

Why would high rise apartments be encouraging highways and sprawl? You would think low rise apartments would do that more if they wanted to really sprawl out with highways.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
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A way to do this is to buy disused one- and two-storey houses (either left sitting empty for years or the cost to renovate would far outweigh the value of the structure), and to re-purpose the lots for three- and four-storey apartments or town homes which do run taller than the tallest of adjacent of the older, two-storey houses, but make much better use of that land and preserve access to core amenities (like groceries and fixed-rail transit stops).

But there’s this thing called NIMBY, and that’s a whole other conversation about two conflicting, irreconcilable principles which have made the current housing shortage so severe.
From what I understand it is way more expensive to build high rise apartment so they build lots of low rise apartments to house the poor and low income.

But for some strange reason some how it was cheaper in Canada to build high rise apartments to house the poor.

There also culture where there may be more sigma for the middle class to be in apartment in the US or the American dream of owning a house. So in the US apartments are normally for the poor and low income. And it is too expensive to house the poor and low income in high rise apartments in the US.
 
I believe some thing like 10% or 5% of city population lives in apartments not counting Toronto or Vancouver which would be much higher there. And is well the same has the US but the US builds lot of 1 to 5 story apartments. So Canada does not have more apartments than the US and the US does not have more apartments than Canada.

I believe Canada build lots of 6 to 10 stories mid rise apartments in the 50s but than the 60s, 70s, 80s lots of apartments any where from 10 to 20 stories in that time period.

If you’re going to enter a conversation on planning and built form, you need to come in with the citable references to back the figures you’re making.

Why would high rise apartments be encouraging highways and sprawl? You would think low rise apartments would do that more if they wanted to really sprawl out with highways.

Nope, this is the inverse of what happened and what I described. Cart before horse.

Intracity expressway plans were announced by the province during the early 1960s. This included the Spadina Expressway.

Firm plans and concept drawings were released publicly by the province. It all looked like a done deal because on paper, it was a done deal. Developers/land speculators snapped up parcels expected to be situated alongside the new expressway. Some started razing old houses and building modest new apartment towers, anticipating the density of an expressway being so close to downtown.

Then, even as a portion of the expressway had been started (the Allen Road, south from the 401), the premier hit the brakes in 1971 and nixed the expressway. Further razing and development of that highway halted once it reached Eglinton West. All points south of Eglinton were spared, and those apartment developers much further south, on Spadina, didn’t get quite the return they were expecting.

In a contemporary context, there’s a provincial highway project being proposed by the current Ontario government called Highway 413 (for folks outside of Ontario, 400-series highways are the provincial equivalent of a U.S. interstate).

There’s tremendous resistance against its entire purpose. The premier leading the 413 effort has been challenged by local residents, planners, and Ottawa, all objecting to his opening up 413-adjacent deals to developers, even as no road has been finalized and no ground has been broken.

Moreover, this route is proposed in an area which was designated over twenty years ago as a green buffer between city and agriculture (and also to manage water quality and access for communities which depend on water from rivers and watersheds impacted by the planned highway route.

If there are developers brazen enough to begin development right now — whether high-rise condos, tract housing, and/or power centres — next to roads slated to be intersected by the 413, and they break ground before the fate of the 413 is settled, they could find themselves in the same situation as developers in the 1971 who broke ground and built along the proposed Spadina Expressway which never came to be.
 
From what I understand it is way more expensive to build high rise apartment so they build lots of low rise apartments to house the poor and low income.

But for some strange reason some how it was cheaper in Canada to build high rise apartments to house the poor.

There also culture where there may be more sigma for the middle class to be in apartment in the US or the American dream of owning a house. So in the US apartments are normally for the poor and low income. And it is too expensive to house the poor and low income in high rise apartments in the US.

I’m not sure if you’re taking this discussion seriously; if you’re actually thinking critically about what I wrote; or if you’re trolling.

What I would advise is for you to do the basic background review of what’s out there in published reports and papers. I would also advise you to do more active listening/reading and asking relevant questions on what you’ve read and processed. Do these before opining with unfounded assumptions which run roughshod over what others, myself included, have shared voluntarily here with you.

Cheers.
 

bousozoku

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Jun 25, 2002
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I dont remember the mayor of Boise saying that directly (I'm not ruling it out either) but unfortunately, there is a very large amount of the local population who are most unhappy about all of the people moving here from California. I personally dont have a problem with it but, they came here with a TON of cash in hand and bought up all of our cheap housing and then boom, everything quadrupled in price almost overnight. For now, Idaho's cost of living is still relatively low and our utilities are I think some of the cheapest in the nation but when you factor in the cost of housing, plus how low Idaho employees are paid, there is a massive imbalance in terms of what locals can afford and what out-of-towners can buy.
People from Silicon Valley did the same thing here in Central Valley.

In 2014, my two bedroom, slightly-renovated apartment was $835/month. Now, I rent a room for $725/month. The low income/affordable one bedroom apartments are probably slightly more right now, but the pandemic made a mess of things, also.

We've had people from several San Fran Bay Area counties move out here because the most wealthy bought all the cheap properties.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
933
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If you’re going to enter a conversation on planning and built form, you need to come in with the citable references to back the figures you’re making.



Nope, this is the inverse of what happened and what I described. Cart before horse.

Intracity expressway plans were announced by the province during the early 1960s. This included the Spadina Expressway.

Firm plans and concept drawings were released publicly by the province. It all looked like a done deal because on paper, it was a done deal. Developers/land speculators snapped up parcels expected to be situated alongside the new expressway. Some started razing old houses and building modest new apartment towers, anticipating the density of an expressway being so close to downtown.

Then, even as a portion of the expressway had been started (the Allen Road, south from the 401), the premier hit the brakes in 1971 and nixed the expressway. Further razing and development of that highway halted once it reached Eglinton West. All points south of Eglinton were spared, and those apartment developers much further south, on Spadina, didn’t get quite the return they were expecting.

In a contemporary context, there’s a provincial highway project being proposed by the current Ontario government called Highway 413 (for folks outside of Ontario, 400-series highways are the provincial equivalent of a U.S. interstate).

There’s tremendous resistance against its entire purpose. The premier leading the 413 effort has been challenged by local residents, planners, and Ottawa, all objecting to his opening up 413-adjacent deals to developers, even as no road has been finalized and no ground has been broken.

Moreover, this route is proposed in an area which was designated over twenty years ago as a green buffer between city and agriculture (and also to manage water quality and access for communities which depend on water from rivers and watersheds impacted by the planned highway route.

If there are developers brazen enough to begin development right now — whether high-rise condos, tract housing, and/or power centres — next to roads slated to be intersected by the 413, and they break ground before the fate of the 413 is settled, they could find themselves in the same situation as developers in the 1971 who broke ground and built along the proposed Spadina Expressway which never came to be.

If I understand reading it right is the US build highway and this allowed for city sprawl but it was mostly low density but in Canada when they said we are going to build highway they built high rise apartments and this limit sprawl and the need for the highway stop? Can you clearly this part?

You would think with talks of building a highway they would build low rise apartments.
 
If I understand reading it right is the US build highway and this allowed for city sprawl but it was mostly low density

For many American metropolitan areas, this is what happened.

That said, the construction of the Eisenhower Interstate system was engineered, first and foremost, as a network of limited-access highways (freeways) to connect together military bases and strategic ports and rail terminals — with connections through cities serving both the mobilization of military in, say, an imminent national emergency, and also as a way for civilians and commercial interests to travel from city to city in their private vehicles.

(This is also what all but ended passenger railway companies by 1970, with the federal government consolidating those into what is now known as Amtrak, and to continue serving towns and cities not served by interstate highways.)

For deeply established American cities, like New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., and even Minneapolis-St. Paul, sprawl came about more slowly due to regional planning policies investing on neighbourhoods and housing within the cities.

But yes:

Arising from the goal of building barracks-styled, single-family tract housing for returning WWII vets on the GI Bill (and bilding them both cheaply and quickly), the expansion of these tract houses — bungalows, ranch houses, etc. — in suburban subdivisions, and the roll-out of the interstate system happened concurrently, and together, they facilitated an acceleration of American sprawl. The aforementioned GM/Firestone/Standard Oil conspiracy also was like adding kindling to that sprawl fire.


but in Canada when they said we are going to build highway they built high rise apartments and this limit sprawl and the need for the highway stop? Can you clearly this part?

In the historical example I shared, that was the case.

Other high-rise apartments, in several medium and lager Canadian cities, were built adjacent to established major transit routes and main streets, such as urban concession line roads. The reasoning was both a function of how official city plans permitted such housing and also to take advantage of pre-existing infrastructure (like water-sewage, hydro lines, telecom lines, and so on).

Canada, with exception, didn’t sprawl like the U.S. because Canada didn’t have “interprovince” freeways or lax development policy on unincorporated lands. In Canada, enforcement of official regional and municipal plans has, historically, been stronger than in most parts of the U.S. A lot of this stems back to structures of constitutional governance being very different from the U.S.: provinces have the constitutional power to dictate, at will, the welfare of every municipality within its border. Regional official plans, therefore, tend to be overseen by the province. And even if a city, in their own official plan, has a vision for how to build within its city limits, the province still has the ministerial power to override the city.

Even so, Canada also has had its post-WWII sprawl. A good, 1950s example: Don Mills in North York.


You would think with talks of building a highway they would build low rise apartments.

In 2024, as there is a severe housing shortage, why would you think that?
 

Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
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Mar 15, 2015
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In 2024, as there is a severe housing shortage, why would you think that?

I should clearly I mean back than in the 50s and 60s.

But why did Toronto build Jane and finch to house the poor and low income in high rise apartments but in LA south central it is mostly small houses and low rise apartments. Why did the two cities gone down very different path what to do with the poor and low income?
 

Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
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But for some strange reason some how it was cheaper in Canada to build high rise apartments to house the poor.

Cost of the land.

It is cheaper to build 5 stories and under from a strictly construction standpoint. But if land is super expensive then it becomes cheaper to go up
 

Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
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Cost of the land.

It is cheaper to build 5 stories and under from a strictly construction standpoint. But if land is super expensive then it becomes cheaper to go up

But I’m sure land was not super expensive like it is today. We are talking about the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s.
 

bousozoku

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I should clearly I mean back than in the 50s and 60s.

But why did Toronto build Jane and finch to house the poor and low income in high rise apartments but in LA south central it is mostly small houses and low rise apartments. Why did the two cities gone down very different path what to do with the poor and low income?
Did you ever see an earthquake destroy a tall building?

Los Angeles has had enough earthquakes to remodel the area several times and so has San Francisco. The Northridge and Loma Prieta earthquakes managed to destroy a lot.

How many major earthquakes has Toronto suffered?
 
I should clearly I mean back than in the 50s and 60s.

OK.

Again, road build-out policy between the two nations were very different, and in Canada, that highway planning was handled on a province by province basis. The federal government mostly stayed out of it.

But why did Toronto build Jane and finch to house the poor and low income in high rise apartments

I don’t think the original intent of developers who built apartment towers along Jane, up to Finch, were aiming for what ultimately happened.

I do think the way in which planners, during the 1950s and 1960s, conceived of how to develop on major concession routes, was shortsighted.

[Sidebar: Jane is a N-S concession; Finch is an E-W concession — with E-W concessions, like Sheppard and Steeles, each being 2km apart from Finch in either direction; N-S concessions, like Jane, were subdivided into 100m, though many N-S concessions are side streets.]

Their shortsightedness came from a belief that suburban development, at and near major intersections (as Jane and Finch were then), would favour car usage. There was TTC bus and even, I believe, electric trolley bus service (though trolley buses were gone by the late ’80s, with Weston Road being one of the last to operate). But this was during a time when explosive growth in car ownership and cheap fuel, even in Canada, would favour building high rises near major road intersections, albeit with more “green space” between plots than downtown Toronto. There was also significant popualtion growth in post-WWII babies entering adulthood, as well as new Canadians, and a housing plan was needed (with units of fewer bedrooms than the typical post-WWII suburban house in the area).

The “green space” idea was borrowed, in part, from Ebenezer Howard’s Garden Cities; a lot from Le Corbusier (which I linked to earlier); and Frank Lloyd Wright’s Broadacre City planning concepts. These were shortsighted on the planners’ and developers’ behalves: none was thinking about human connections, how people use space, or community cultivation.

Lastly, the private developers who built in these areas (along with social housing being built by the province), believed these ventures would be successful.

But what happened was once residents moved in, many found themselves completely cut off from the city: you couldn’t really walk anywhere any longer. You couldn’t ride a bike. There were no walk-up grocery store or supermarkets (or, later, when there were, they were designed with giant, American-styled parking lots). It was basically like Regent Park, “except make it all high-rise and out in the middle of (then) nowhere.”

Planners back then, whether city, region, or province, were all white men. The uniformity of the “profession”’s makeup was its giant blind spot.

The planners hadn’t considered usage-integration.

They were thinking on the lines of monoculture: housing in one place; shopping in a second; school in a third; and work in a fourth. They were thinking like people who were accustomed to owning one or even two cars in their households.

The desire to live in these green moats waned fast for the first round of new residents. Demand fell, so prices came down by the 1980s. It became, in effect, privately-owned “affordable” housing, mixed with social housing which, again, lacked human connections. It was a way for a lot of first-gen Canadian families to get a foothold and dwelling in the metro. But that entry came with the cost of a pre-engineered isolation which none of those planners and developers would ever have to experience in their daily lives.

Developers were, as developers do, thinking about their return on investment. They mostly managed to recoup construction costs, but within twenty years, it was clear all of this was a hot mess — in no small part due to the planners (who weren’t North York planners, but provincial-level Ontario Housing Corporation planners).

Ever since then, communities have worked and striven to find ways to bridge those chasms with in-fill development and with community centres. So many people have died due to that 1960s-engineered, planned isolation from the rest of the metro and city. People who moved there found themselves in the nations’s biggest city, but they were not of or with the city through no fault of their own. They were sequestered, out of sight, out of mind, and nope, the car was not the answer to tying Jane and Finch to the rest of the city fabric.

And at long last, after being halted by a now-deceased, self-absorbed mayor in 2010, the fixed-rail LRT to Jane and Finch — the Finch West LRT — is finally (finally) being built. It’s opening over ten years late. It will connect to the Finch West subway station (which opened six years ago). And some sixty years too late, Jane and Finch will no longer be cut off from the city. There’s a whole lot of work still to be done.

Next up: getting Rexdale and Malvern better connected through fixed rail connections.

but in LA south central it is mostly small houses and low rise apartments. Why did the two cities gone down very different path what to do with the poor and low income?

In L.A., segregation, by force of law, was law of the land in the U.S. until, well, 1964. As noted earlier, L.A. developed a lot of “missing middle” low-mid-rise housing, but at the same time, the way L.A. became L.A. was unique to L.A. and no other city on the continent.

It started as a bunch of small towns and villages, some going way back to Spanish colonization, which, as the petroleum industry took off (the Miracle Mile); entertaiment moved into the village of Hollywood; and a sea port was built, councillors, mayors, and developers/land owners/prospectors — all white men — envisioned a stitching together of all these hamlets into one large city. Or, if not a single city, then a metropolitan area.

From the 1920s, these hamlets were stitched together with paved roads and highways. In 1928, L.A. passed the first enforceable jaywalking ordinances and in 1920, put in the first permanent traffic signals (red/green; red-amber-green happened also in 1920, but in Detroit).

Then, they developed land with low-mid-rise and mid-high-rise apartments to house newcomers coming in with the new economies. They were built alongside modest-sized, single-family bungalows for mostly working-class white people making good money at the wells and the ports.

Still, there were shanty towns dating back to the days of the prospectors — areas which would bcome light industrial/warehousing zones and also the enforcable segregation of Black and Chicano Los Angelinos into these oldest, most run-down housing in the newly-stitched city: South Central, Compton, East L.A., and so on.

So L.A. was unique in how it came together.

Toronto developed much the way a city like Chicago developed: from the very start, it was a place where rail, marine shipping, and routes intersected, bringing in raw materials from the “hinterlands” — with many of those routes and lanes built atop the same trading routes and trails which had been established and used for generations by (in Toronto’s case) the Six Nations of the Haudenosaunee (or Iriquois). Tkaronto signified a meeting place for different first nations communities to meet seasonally to trade and commune. Geographically, the Toronto area has long lent itself to being an especially hospitable place for routes and paths to, literally, intersect at a natural harbour.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
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Mar 15, 2015
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I don’t think the original intent of developers who built apartment towers along Jane, up to Finch, were aiming for what ultimately happened.

I do think the way in which planners, during the 1950s and 1960s, conceived of how to develop on major concession routes, was shortsighted.

So those high rise apartments where built to house white middle class people but than some how poor and low income people later on?

Was the high rise apartment deign for car parking or did they think lot of people would take public transit?
 
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Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
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In L.A., segregation, by force of law, was law of the land in the U.S. until, well, 1964. As noted earlier, L.A. developed a lot of “missing middle” low-mid-rise housing, but at the same time, the way L.A. became L.A. was unique to L.A. and no other city on the continent.

But that thing why did LA build lot of low rise apartments but Canada did not. I mean Canada has lot of 6 to 10 story mid rise apartments in the 50s and than some strange reason gone all high rise 10 to 20 stories in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Also Phoenix and Las Vegas has lot of low rise apartments.

So there still some culture differences of why Canada built so many mid rise and high rise apartments and why the US did not build high rise apartments.

Why did Canada hate low rise apartments unlike the US? Even mid rise apartments in Canada was not popular in the 60s, 70s and 80s or now.
 

Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
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Also Phoenix and Las Vegas has lot of low rise apartments.

Plenty of cheap, flat land. Sprawl keeps going north of Phoenix.

Even in the 60's and 70's, land was cheap on the outskirts of town. So build cheap apartments and let people drive to the city centers.
 
So those high rise apartments where built to house white middle class people but than some how poor and low income people later on?

Nope. Those high rise apartments were built to house tenants who either lived alone, lived as couples, or were just starting families. This went for both the private developers building market units and the OHC-built social housing units.

In that part of the metro in the 1950s and 1960s, there were already a scattering of families living in single-detached houses. Many were first- and second-gen Canadian families, as had been the case going back to the late 19th century.

When provincial OHC planners started setting up zoning for high rise housing, they knew the population for the area was growing rapidly, something like 40 per cent of all North York population growth in the 1960s located to Jane and Finch, as soon as housing units were opened — going from, like, 1,300 residents in 1961 to 33,000 in 1971.

Those planners were, crudely put, experimenting: they were trying to “design” a “model” suburban community for a diverse population, one embodied by new Canadians who were moving to Toronto. In the ’60s, new Canadians were arriving principally from Italy, the Caribbean, and Portugal, but also South Asian and Chinese arrivals. They were trying to design for newly built communities which didn’t yet exist in the area. They weren’t sitting down with new arrivals to the area to ask what is important for them in a local community.

But given how these planners were all white dudes in the 1960s, they were not thinking of how it might be like if they, too, were to move there and build community once apartment housing units were built and opened. They were too sure of themselves to ask questions and to admit they didn’t know what they didn’t understand (because they never bothered). To them, planning back then was about zoning for buildings and imprinting their image of what the built environment would look like, not who would have to live with their decision-making consequences. In a word, of course there was racism going on, and there was also a whole lot of paternalism going on.

(This has been a recurring problem with a lot of planners pretty much everywhere and across generations. It’s also why I have a lot of problems with the recurring patterns with urban planners doing a crappy job of placing themselves in the shoes of experiences they otherwise would not get to know know. To do that means not only listening, but also asking more questions. I also have a long list of issues with even referring to the urban planning profession as a “profession”, but I really don’t want to harp on that soap box right now. That said, there are a few planners these days, mostly in the U.S., who have been giving me hope for the future.)

For-profit developers of the market apartment towers aimed to fill all their towers as quickly as every new-build development does: with the usual, flashy promotional signs out front of the development. The OHC social housing units would not have been advertised.


Was the high rise apartment deign for car parking or did they think lot of people would take public transit?

That’s an excellent question. And I sincerely don’t know.

But now I sort of want to dig into city archives to see whether they have any metro-level files from the planning process for Jane and Finch, and whether those OHC planners from Queen’s Park did traffic and mode use field analysis. They should have, but it wouldn’t shock me if they just guessed. I’m not sure I’ve run into any Local-dot-to or Torontoist or BlogTO-like articles whose authors have delved into those archives — not yet, anyway.

Unfortunately, I’m thinking more of it will be housed at the provincial archives at the York University campus, not the city archives. Unlike the city archives and the archives at the National Library in Ottawa, trying to find fonds and collections in the provincial archives has led me to a lot of past frustration (poorly described metadata, collections not being on-site, and so on).

Still, I should see if the provincial archives have improved their search finding aids.
 
Plenty of cheap, flat land. Sprawl keeps going north of Phoenix.

Even in the 60's and 70's, land was cheap on the outskirts of town. So build cheap apartments and let people drive to the city centers.

Yah. A lot of post-1800 U.S. development has acted/moved as if land was a giant free-for-all. (Which, frankly, it was: it was a core mandate of John O’Sullivan’s Manifest Destiny — a “higher law” superseding all other provisions in the name of “annexation” — which would become a core mandate of the Polk presidency.)

There isn’t strong state-level oversight in the way there’s strong, provincial-level oversight (due to the structure of Canadian constitutional law giving provinces unusually strong powers over what localities can and can’t do).
 

Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
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Mar 15, 2015
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Plenty of cheap, flat land. Sprawl keeps going north of Phoenix.

Even in the 60's and 70's, land was cheap on the outskirts of town. So build cheap apartments and let people drive to the city centers.

But Canada was in a very different spot in the 50s and 60s they could have sprawl. I don’t think sprawl was answer to why they built high rise apartments in Canada. If sprawl was reason they would have zone more townhomes and lot more mid rise apartments and houses would be very expensive in the 50s and 60s.

There also high rise apartments in Hamilton, Kitchener, Waterloo, London Ontario even Ottawa so on. So this not Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal thing. And back than those cities would be very small population.

And some years ago I saw some high rise apartments in Nunavut and northern Ontario. This is Canadian phenomena. Yes Nunavut and northern Ontario.

For some strange reason Canada hates low rise apartments and even mid rise apartments don’t really like them much but really hates low rise apartments.

And the mid rise apartments seem to be more 50s thing by the 60s, 70s and 80s it was more high rise.
 
But that thing why did LA build lot of low rise apartments but Canada did not. I mean Canada has lot of 6 to 10 story mid rise apartments in the 50s and than some strange reason gone all high rise 10 to 20 stories in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Unlike the U.S., Canada’s urban/city population grew explosively in the 1960s. Demographers at the time were very likely imploring planners and policy makers to ramp up housing capacity as quickly as they could do it.

Not only were there boomer kids moving into their own places for the first time, and not only were there new Canadians settling in major cities, but there were also intra-Canadian migrations from places like the Maritimes, where a lot of the fishing communities had fallen on hard times. Many younger Maritimers saw no future in staying and migrated west to cities like Toronto and Ottawa and Montréal. (There’s a whole film from 1970 portraying a story based on that migration trend called Goin’ Down the Road.)

In the 1960s, Montréal also grew explosively as the Quiet Revolution (Révolution tranquille) saw a lot of migration into the city from rural parishes. Montréal, despite being better prepared to absorb the first influx of new arrivals, also had to build upward, and did so, often nearby the new STM Métro stations, post-1966. Montréal, unlike Toronto, also had a lot less land to work with, was a lot older, and had been building “missing middle” three-story apartments for almost a century. So the way the city accommodated new residents in the new high rise apartmenrs was a bit less, well, experimental guesswork, and more steady to fit in with what was already built, including walking access to greengrocers and small supermarkets.


Also Phoenix and Las Vegas has lot of low rise apartments.

Yup. Land is cheap and regulations on land-use was low for a very long time.

So there still some culture differences of why Canada built so many mid rise and high rise apartments and why the US did not build high rise apartments.

I think I’ve already answered that. Maybe not a short answer, but I’ve definitely covered it already. Give the earlier posts a re-read or quick browse.

Why did Canada hate low rise apartments unlike the US? Even mid rise apartments in Canada was not popular in the 60s, 70s and 80s or now.

“Hate” was not involved. Land-use limitations were the deciding factor — both constitutional (Canada) and national policy (U.S.).

Mid-rise apartments, as I linked to several pictures earlier, show otherwise. Mid-rise apartments built even in the 1960s were not uncommon. For a couple of years, I lived in a mid-rise apartment complex in Le Plateau area of Montréal, built in the mid-1960s — as were several other apartments in the area.

Go back to that graph I linked a few paragraphs above (“grew explosively…”). Urban population growth halted in the early ’70s, actually fell somewhat, and didn’t really begin to recover until the early 1990s. Although I can mentally picture a handful of mid- and mid-high rise (sub-20 storey) apartment buildings in the Toronto area from the late 1970s and 1980s, they were fairly few and far between.

By the early 1990s, urban population growth bgan to recover.

I remember my first-year instructor, a former city planner, show us how the city facilitated the need for open up more higher-density housing during the middle of a recession in 1990–93. He pointed us to a 10-storey office building from the late 1950s which, through city zoning changes, had the building rezoned as residential and enabled a developer to retrofit the building for apartments instead. Developers weren’t really proposing a lot of new-build apartment units at the time, so he referred to that retrofit as an example of making do with what’s already built.

So, it ain’t “hate”. It’s a combination of economics and listening to demographers (like Statistics Canada).

As for what’s going on right now? We might as well start with a whole new thread. (I’m half-kidding. I’m quickly feeling wiped out from juggling this conversation with other stuff I’ve been working on today.)
 
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But Canada was in a very different spot in the 50s and 60s they could have sprawl.

Canada has had some! Heck, this small garage band out of Toronto made a song about the prevalence on Canadian suburban sprawl. It was called, uh, hang on… grabbing my notes… ah yes… Subdivisions”.

Ever been to the outer rim of Calgary or Edmonton? Ever been to Langley or Abbottsford or New Westminster or Surrey? Ever been to Longueuil or Beaconsfield or Kirkland? Ever been to Nepean or Kanata? Ever been to Woodbridge or Markham? Ever been to Don Mills or Oakville?

I don’t think sprawl was answer to why they built high rise apartments in Canada. If sprawl was reason they would have zone more townhomes and lot more mid rise apartments and houses would be very expensive in the 50s and 60s.

There also high rise apartments in Hamilton, Kitchener, Waterloo, London Ontario even Ottawa so on. So this not Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal thing. And back than those cities would be very small population.

And some years ago I saw some high rise apartments in Nunavut and northern Ontario. This is Canadian phenomena. Yes Nunavut and northern Ontario.

Yup. It’s more energy-efficient to design for the climate and build a single edifice with many units, and to heat those units, than to have a bunch of single-dwelling houses where there is, literally, more surface area exposed to the outdoors at the household level. This goes for Iqaluit and for Yellowknife, too.

For some strange reason Canada hates low rise apartments and even mid rise apartments don’t really like them much but really hates low rise apartments.

Stop going in circles, please! 🤦‍♀️

And the mid rise apartments seem to be more 50s thing by the 60s, 70s and 80s it was more high rise.

Confirmation bias and armchair generalizations are not useful guides.
 

Bubble99

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 15, 2015
933
232
Unlike the U.S., Canada’s urban/city population grew explosively in the 1960s. Demographers at the time were very likely imploring planners and policy makers to ramp up housing capacity as quickly as they could do it.

Not only were there boomer kids moving into their own places for the first time, and not only were there new Canadians settling in major cities, but there were also intra-Canadian migrations from places like the Maritimes, where a lot of the fishing communities had fallen on hard times. Many younger Maritimers saw no future in staying and migrated west to cities like Toronto and Ottawa and Montréal. (There’s a whole film from 1970 portraying a story based on that migration trend called Goin’ Down the Road.)


But that does not explain how LA that had explosive growth was able to do it.

19401,504,277

19501,970,358

19602,479,015

19702,811,801
19903,485,398
20003,694,820


And I’m sure LA had lot of poor and low income people not to say people coming from other countries and moving to LA Not having much money.

And other California cities had lots of growth post WW2.
 

Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
1,094
7,595
Ever been to the outer rim of Calgary or Edmonton? Ever been to Langley or Abbottsford or New Westminster or Surrey? Ever been to Longueuil or Beaconsfield or Kirkland? Ever been to Nepean or Kanata? Ever been to Woodbridge or Markham? Ever been to Don Mills or Oakville?

I know Abbottsford from Highway thru Hell (aka as Highway Heroes Canada) and dated a girl from Markham, but her family had a SFH.
 
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