MP 6,1 MacPro 2013 upgrade + external PCIe SUPERFAST SSD

[Stroudy]

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I'm extending the life of my MacPro 2013 and PCIe NVMe storage seems crazy fast... I want this. So.... will it work?​

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1. Can I use a Thunderbolt 2 (or TB3??) PCIe enclosure and install a High-Performance PCIe M.2 NVMe SSD Solution?

This is the PCIe enclouse I have in mind...
A SONNET SON-ECHOEXPSE1 - https://cvp.com/product/sonnet_son-echoexpse1

And here's the NVMe card

https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/ssd/owc-accelsior-4m2

Will I get the results I'm looking for over Thunderbolt 2?
Or can I buy the TB3 version with a TB3/TB2 adapter?
Will this work at all? i.e. will the Mac recognise the storage?


2. Also, I am upgrading the internal SSD to the OWC
Aura Pro X2 - https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/S3DAPT4MP20P/.

Are there any pitfalls with this type of upgrade?

3. Lastly, could I add USB-C capability to the MacPro 2013 by adding another PCIe card to the enclosure?


Is this a sensible way to add USB-c connectivity to the MacPro2013?
Are there any specific USB-C cards I need to buy?
Will and USb-C type drive caddy work?

Something like this? https://www.amazon.com/Express-Expansion-Asmedia-Chipset-Windows/dp/B074QGBXSP

Thank you in advance for any insights

 

[Stroudy]

Or could I simply purchase a glyph atom thunderbolt 3 external drive?

Buy - Glyph GL-A8000PRO (GLA8000PRO) Atom Pro NVMe SSD Thunderbolt 3 - 8TB

We have the Glyph Atom Pro NVMe SSD - 8TB (GL-A8000PRO2) ready to order and many other media & readers in stock. Expert advice and a full range of help and support services come as standard to all our customers. Speak to us today about your requirements.

cvp.com

Admittedly, this terminates the thunderbolt daisy chain, but I can deal with that.

Will this drive work with a thunderbolt 3/2 adapter on a 2013 MacPro?

 

[tsialex]

Or could I simply purchase a glyph atom thunderbolt 3 external drive?

Buy - Glyph GL-A8000PRO (GLA8000PRO) Atom Pro NVMe SSD Thunderbolt 3 - 8TB

We have the Glyph Atom Pro NVMe SSD - 8TB (GL-A8000PRO2) ready to order and many other media & readers in stock. Expert advice and a full range of help and support services come as standard to all our customers. Speak to us today about your requirements.

cvp.com

Admittedly, this terminates the thunderbolt daisy chain, but I can deal with that.

Will this drive work with a thunderbolt 3/2 adapter on a 2013 MacPro?

TB3 devices that are bus-powered don't work with a MacPro6,1, Apple TB2 to TB3 adapter only transmits data, no power to the device.

 

[joevt]

Can I use a Thunderbolt 2 (or TB3??) PCIe enclosure and install a High-Performance PCIe M.2 NVMe SSD Solution?

Yes.

This is the PCIe enclouse I have in mind...
A SONNET SON-ECHOEXPSE1 - https://cvp.com/product/sonnet_son-echoexpse1

Fine.
Consider the Thunderbolt 3 version enclosure for future compatibility, and because it also gives USB 3.1 gen 2 (10 Gbps)

And here's the NVMe card
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/ssd/owc-accelsior-4m2

Should work.

Will I get the results I'm looking for over Thunderbolt 2?

You are limited to the Mac Pro's Thunderbolt 2 speed of 1600 MB/s.

Or can I buy the TB3 version with a TB3/TB2 adapter?
Will this work at all? i.e. will the Mac recognise the storage?

Yes, get TB3 version instead for future compatibility and also because it adds USB 3.1 gen 2 (10 Gbps) capability.

Also, I am upgrading the internal SSD to the OWC
Aura Pro X2 - https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/S3DAPT4MP20P/.

Are there any pitfalls with this type of upgrade?

I think it should be a simple upgrade.

Lastly, could I add USB-C capability to the MacPro 2013 by adding another PCIe card to the enclosure?

Is this a sensible way to add USB-c connectivity to the MacPro2013?
Are there any specific USB-C cards I need to buy?
Will and USb-C type drive caddy work?

Something like this? https://www.amazon.com/Express-Expansion-Asmedia-Chipset-Windows/dp/B074QGBXSP

Thunderbolt 3 enclosure or dock comes with USB-C that supports Thunderbolt and USB 3.1 gen 2 and DisplayPort Alt Mode. The USB speed is 10 Gbps.

The ASMedia ASM1142 is only 8 Gbps. There are better options.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/usb-3-x-pcie-cards-for-classic-mac-pro.1501482/

Or could I simply purchase a glyph atom thunderbolt 3 external drive?

Buy - Glyph GL-A8000PRO (GLA8000PRO) Atom Pro NVMe SSD Thunderbolt 3 - 8TB

We have the Glyph Atom Pro NVMe SSD - 8TB (GL-A8000PRO2) ready to order and many other media & readers in stock. Expert advice and a full range of help and support services come as standard to all our customers. Speak to us today about your requirements.

cvp.com

Admittedly, this terminates the thunderbolt daisy chain, but I can deal with that.

Will this drive work with a thunderbolt 3/2 adapter on a 2013 MacPro?

It won't work with the Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter because the drive requires more power than the adapter supplies. You can connect a powered Thunderbolt 3 device using the Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter, then connect the Glyph Atom to that.

If you are running Big Sur, then you could connect a Thunderbolt 4 hub or dock which have 3 downstream Thunderbolt 4 ports that you can connect Thunderbolt devices to, or USB devices. All USB devices will share a 10 Gbps connection because Thunderbolt 4 hubs/docks usually do not include more than one USB controller and port (they use a USB hub for USB devices). Thunderbolt 3 docks that can be connected to USB-C (non-Thunderbolt) are similar in that regard. Older Thunderbolt 3 docks like the CalDigit TS3+ or the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock have multiple USB controllers but only the USB controller of the Thunderbolt 3 controller has the max performance.

 

[ManitobaSky]

What jovet said, you are never going to get faster then TB2 can support. l’m looking at doing something similar, here is what I’m looking at.
1 Sabrent TB3 dual nvme enclosure with TB3 to TB2 adapter, this enclosure has its own power supply so no issue with using the adapter.
2 Already using a sin tech adapter and intel 660 ssd, cheaper just as easy and drive can be repurposed when the Mac Pro is retired.
3 TB3 to TB2 adapter and TB3/4 dock, not likely doing this as I don’t need extra ports or USB C at the moment.

 

[joevt]

1 Sabrent TB3 dual nvme enclosure with TB3 to TB2 adapter, this enclosure has its own power supply so no issue with using the adapter.

I haven't seen dual NVMe before. Each is running with 2 lanes (1500 MB/s) instead of 4 lanes (2800 MB/s).
OWC has a Quad NVMe enclosure where each NVMe is using only 1 lane (800 MB/s). Fill it with the slowest NVMe's, SoftwareRAID them together, and you can still get like 2800 MB/s (at least for sequential read/write)
Consider performance vs capacity tradeoffs in each of the 3 cases. Can you get the required capacity with fewer NVMe at a price similar to that of multiple lower capacity NVMe?

Already using a sin tech adapter and intel 660 ssd, cheaper just as easy and drive can be repurposed when the Mac Pro is retire.

Yes, definitely future proofing your purchases is a good idea - so don't buy Thunderbolt 2 or Apple NVMe when you can buy Thunderbolt 3 and normal NVMe (with appropriate adapters).

 

[Stroudy]

@joevt - This is the most concise and comprehensive answer I could have hoped for. Thank you so much.

@ManitobaSky - the Sabrent TB3 dual nvme enclosure looks like the way to go. I imagine no fans, so quieter than the PCIe enclosure route too.

So I could get 2 x M.2 2TB Samsung 980 PRO NVMe PCIe 4.0, but I'd still only get 1500 MB/s over TB2? What's is the bottleneck here?

@joevt - my priority is random access as its primary use is in a music digital audio workstation streaming audio sample libraries (many many small audio clips being triggered randomly) - would the raid setup hinder this? With mechanical drives, this was the case, for sure.

 

[KeesMacPro]

streaming audio sample libraries (many many small audio clips being triggered randomly) - would the raid setup hinder this? With mechanical drives, this was the case, for sure.

The max Thunderbolt 2 speed ~1500MB/s is fast enough for this purpose.

 

[joevt]

So I could get 2 x M.2 2TB Samsung 980 PRO NVMe PCIe 4.0, but I'd still only get 1500 MB/s over TB2? What's is the bottleneck here?

Thunderbolt 2 = 20 Gbps = 2500 MB/s
but Thunderbolt 2 uses PCIe 2.0 x4 = 5 GT/s x 4 x 8b/10b = 2000 MB/s. With PCIe overhead, you can expect to get about 80% of that. PCIe is just one of the inputs to the Thunderbolt controller. The Thunderbolt controller also has two DisplayPort inputs. The rest of the Thunderbolt 2 bandwidth can be used by DisplayPort (priority is DisplayPort, then PCIe can use whatever is left over up to its max).

Here's a question: Can a Thunderbolt 3 device connected to a Thunderbolt 2 host perform better than a Thunderbolt 2 device connected to the same host? The Thunderbolt 3 device will be using PCIe 3.0 so maybe it can use more of the Thunderbolt 2 bandwidth? Probably not, since the host is still limited to PCIe 2.0. So here's a slightly different question: Can a Thunderbolt 3 device connected to a Thunderbolt 3 host at 20 Gbps perform better than a Thunderbolt 2 device connected to the same Thunderbolt 3 host? Maybe, since there's a PCIe 3.0 connection at either end and a 20 Gbps connection between them which is less than PCIe 3.0 x4 but greater than PCIe 2.0 x4.

@joevt - my priority is random access as its primary use is in a music digital audio workstation streaming audio sample libraries (many many small audio clips being triggered randomly) - would the raid setup hinder this? With mechanical drives, this was the case, for sure.

Raiding the drives might make more sense for a Thunderbolt 3 host, but since you have a Thunderbolt 2 host, the PCIe 3.0 x2 connections (8 GT/s x 2 x 128b/130b = 15.75 Gbps) can each almost fill the PCIe 2.0 x4 connection of the Thunderbolt 2 host (16 Gbps).

If random access is what you want, then ignore RAID. Things will be simpler that way anyway (less chance of failure, easier to upgrade/replace/etc). But you should always verify. The AmorphousDiskMark benchmark has a sequential test and a random test so try them out when you get your dual NVMe drive. The ATTO Disk Benchmark can do multiple disks at the same time so you can see how bandwidth is shared without making a RAID but it doesn't have a random access benchmark.

 

[Stroudy]

The max Thunderbolt 2 speed ~1500MB/s is fast enough for this purpose.

Loading times are equally important, but I'm sure that speed would be fine. Certainly a major step-up from the mechanical raid array I have. Ooff.

@joevt - I've just discovered The AngelShark Carrier board which allows me to add (yes, add, not replace the stock apple SSD) two NVMe cards.

So my question is... do I get a greater overall read/write performance from reading multiple files from multiple devices, or would it be equal to reading multiple files from a single location?

To clarify, if supposing I'm reading MAX ~1500MBps from the internal NVMe AND MAX ~1500MBps over TB2 another external drive, do I get ~3000MBps overall reading performance, or is the whole system capped at ~1500 anyway?

 

[Stroudy]

Sabrent TB3 dual nvme enclosure with TB3 to TB2 adapter, this enclosure has its own power supply so no issue with using the adapter.

Have you confirmed this? This looks ideal, but I need to make sure of compatibility. For an enclosure, it's quite pricey.

 

[KeesMacPro]

Loading times are equally important, but I'm sure that speed would be fine. Certainly a major step-up from the mechanical raid array I have. Ooff.

Absolutely, and as suggested by @joevt , I wouldn't install the blades in RAID.

 

[joevt]

@joevt - I've just discovered The AngelShark Carrier board which allows me to add (yes, add, not replace the stock apple SSD) two NVMe cards.

There are a few thread that discuss the AngelShark Carrier.

So my question is... do I get a greater overall read/write performance from reading multiple files from multiple devices, or would it be equal to reading multiple files from a single location?

Maybe a slight increase. If the second file is queued up before the first is done. Or if the first is doing random access the second can do work during that time.

To clarify, if supposing I'm reading MAX ~1500MBps from the internal NVMe AND MAX ~1500MBps over TB2 another external drive, do I get ~3000MBps overall reading performance, or is the whole system capped at ~1500 anyway?

If Thunderbolt and internal NVMe have different root ports then you could get 3000 MB/s using one Thunderbolt controller and the flash drive together.

There's a motherboard block diagram at https://egpu.io/forums/desktop-computing/late-2013-mac-pro-system-block-diagram/
It shows the Flash Storage is connected to the PCH at PCIe 2.0 x4 (≈1600 MB/s)
while the three Thunderbolt 2 controllers (each PCIe 2.0 x4) are connected to the CPU via a PCIe switch with PCIe 3.0 x8 upstream connection.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/pcie-ssds-nvme-ahci.2146725/post-29459039

Maybe you can get 5500 MB/s by raiding three Thunderbolt controllers and the flash. You can use the ATTO Disk Benchmark to test the shared bandwidth without making a raid.
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...r-board-storage-upgrade.2092108/post-29583877

 

[Stroudy]

Just wanna say, big thanks for all the help here... I'll try to report back with my solution.

I think I'm going to spread the load over 2 drives, storing the sample libraries evenly across them.

One thing's for sure... it'll thrash the hell out of my mechanical raid