MP 1,1-5,1 MacPro 5.1 & high capacity hard drives

[vsc]

I know from discussions with OWC that they are struggling to keep business operations open. It was said that they only have a very limited number of individuals working the stockroom and it would appear that their ability to respond to this issue is debatable. I suggested they compare their sleds to OEM Apple sleds, but I never received a response. It appears the vast majority of their employees are working from home, doing their best to respond to customer needs.

I concur that the "cover plate" is too far out. Could it be that their choice of aluminum thickness (e.g. too thick) threw away any design tolerance they might have enjoyed?

I do have a 3D printer and was not aware of the sled design before ordering the OWC sleds. That said my first reaction when I saw that idea in this thread was wow, I wonder if the plastic will holdup under the temperature in the MacPro where failure would likely destroy the SATA connector. That said while it's not summer temperatures the drives are showing ~40C (perhaps 45C at most). That is well away from the temps that of a concern for say PLA or PET.

Perhaps I could fire up the printer and print an example. It's not like sitting at home that I can't find a few moments to get it started...

Sad to hear that. Have you contacted OWC about it?
If everybody who's experienced this tells them this they can't say it's only Vsc who's making it up. Also sending them photos like what's been done here will be helpful.

Has anyone reading bought those OWC sleds and experienced the opposite -that they fit like the original Apple sleds? The plastic 3D printed ones posted in this thread are tempting (though I don't have a 3D printer -I assume there are companies around where you can send them the files and buy the finished product), but for "critical" parts such as this I prefer something more sturdy: metal.
Of course with plastic it would be easy to enlarge the existing holes if they aren't perfect.

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If you look back in this thread you will find the discussion, but I went with a Seagate ST16000NM001G 16TB enterprise drive.

Questions that came up were if the drive would spin up at power up and stay usable after a warm boot where some drives required taping pin 3 to get them to spin up. The Seagate doesn't implement that change to the SATA interface, thus no tape is required. Additionally on a warm boot (or even after standby), the drive remains mounted without issue. I have been using it for more than a week now with no issues. And given work from home, my Mac Pro is getting a lot of use at this juncture.

With respect to noise, while idle (just spinning) it is quieter with respect to an older Hitachi 4TB drive. Seeking... Well you know its there but I don't think it is any louder than alternatives, such as a Western Digital Red.

Which specific model did you go for?

 

[kohlson]

So any opinions on

The articles on this make something very clear - manufacturers are not very forthcoming on this, to say the least. I think the best path would be 1) read a few actual reviews and 2) buy from a seller that you can communicate with beforehand ("Is this an SMR drive?") and that has a good return policy.

 

[macstatic]

If you look back in this thread you will find the discussion, but I went with a Seagate ST16000NM001G 16TB enterprise drive.

Questions that came up were if the drive would spin up at power up and stay usable after a warm boot where some drives required taping pin 3 to get them to spin up. The Seagate doesn't implement that change to the SATA interface, thus no tape is required. Additionally on a warm boot (or even after standby), the drive remains mounted without issue. I have been using it for more than a week now with no issues. And given work from home, my Mac Pro is getting a lot of use at this juncture.

With respect to noise, while idle (just spinning) it is quieter with respect to an older Hitachi 4TB drive. Seeking... Well you know its there but I don't think it is any louder than alternatives, such as a Western Digital Red.

Is the Seagate ST6000NM021A the 6 TB equivalent? Your drive seems to be a good alternative without the problematic issues discussed earlier and hopefully it'll last for a long time. An "enterprise" drive is supposed to handle more use than a "desktop" drive, hence last longer, right?
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The articles on this make something very clear - manufacturers are not very forthcoming on this, to say the least. I think the best path would be 1) read a few actual reviews and 2) buy from a seller that you can communicate with beforehand ("Is this an SMR drive?") and that has a good return policy.

Yes, researching beforehand is definitely something to do, so this thread is great for that. Someone should really create a list of "approved for Mac Pro" drives and likewise a "blacklisted hard drives" list (those that are falsely advertised (SMR drives) and those which have brought with them new standards which aren't obvious but cause issues with Mac Pros, and of course those drives that are just bad quality).

 

[TJT49]

I put a Seagate Barracuda 10TB in a Mac Pro 3,1. Two screws from the original 3,1 sled (those nearest the backplane) fit nicely. Two screws to the rear (toward the "handle" of the sled) do not. I used a think rubber band to hold the rear of the drive in the sled. Works fine. Plastic ties won't work — they are too thick to allow the sled to slide back into the computer.

 

[MIKX]

I put a Seagate Barracuda 10TB in a Mac Pro 3,1. Two screws from the original 3,1 sled (those nearest the backplane) fit nicely. Two screws to the rear (toward the "handle" of the sled) do not. I used a think rubber band to hold the rear of the drive in the sled. Works fine. Plastic ties won't work — they are too thick to allow the sled to slide back into the computer.

Your "thick rubber band" will eventually deteriorate and then fail.

if I were you I would buy a standard HDD drive sled for your Mac Pro.

1. Lay the ( unplugged ) Mac Pro on it's side.

2. Connect the new HDD

3. Slide the newly bought "Drive sled" in

3,1 Now maek where the current sled holes are - now work out where the correct mounting holes should be drilled
in the drive sled by marking the existing holes and then doing the math.

4. Drill the new holes.

Voila !

 

[macstatic]

Good (and cheap) suggestion!

 

[Snow Tiger]

Questions that came up were if the drive would spin up at power up and stay usable after a warm boot where some drives required taping pin 3 to get them to spin up

This feature is called Power Disable and its designed to be for a hard reset for compatible modern drives by the host computer . The installation concern is when you have certain modern HDDs connected to legacy power supplies , that conflict with what they want to do with pin number 3 of the 15 pins of the power portion of the SATA connector . Old power supplies can't deal with this feature as they expect pins 1 to 3 to have 3V of juice . New drives with the power disable feature want to use pin 3 to receive a reset request signal from the computer . Thus , the legacy power supplies supply continuous 3v of juice through pin 3 , forcing the hard drive into a continuous reset condition . Which means the drive can't be used until the juice stops flowing . When you tape pin 3 of the drive , you neuter its ability to hard reset and allow its use with legacy PSUs .

What PWDIS feature drives have :

What legacy power supplies offer :

Combine the two for a double plus unfun day .

 

[macstatic]

Thanks for a very clear and good explanation! Illustrations help ?
I suppose if there's a tight fit and tape won't do it there's always the option to carefully pull out the pin 3 wire/metal lug from the connector (and insulate it with tape, a shrinking sleeve or something -which allows re-attaching later if an older drive is to be used again).

I haven't decided on a 6-8 TB drive yet, but is "Power disable" a feature which is mentioned in a drive's tech specifications or something you just have to figure out by trial and error?

Your explanation and remedy then solves problem #1
Problem #2 with high capacity drives is the new screw mounting hole scheme, and that's also been solved (drill a new hole in the existing drive mounting sleds or buy new ones from OWC -and hope they've been made to spec).
With this in mind it looks like it's only a matter of finding a drive which doesn't use SMR technology, is fast, of lasting quality (and in my case at least) is relatively quiet running.

 

[vsc]

Printed the 3D model using PLA. While I don't know the long term robustness in the Mac Pro, it seems to be an option if you have access to a 3D printer.

Mac Pro 4,1 and 5,1 Universal 3.5" HDD Sled by hnzxdv

A replacement 3.5" hard drive sled for 2009 and 2010 Mac Pros with mounting holes for both older SATA drive mounting patterns (1.75 in, 44.45 mm) and the newer pattern (3.00 in, 76.20 mm) featured on helium-filled 6, 8, 10+ TB drives, such as the HGST Ultrastar He8. Addressing Common...

www.thingiverse.com

 

[macstatic]

Looking good! Now if they only had a 3D printer for metal

 

[vsc]

Actually printing with metal (e.g. fused metal powder) exists.

https://www.3dhubs.com/knowledge-base/introduction-metal-3d-printing/

 

[MarkC426]

Printed the 3D model using PLA. While I don't know the long term robustness in the Mac Pro, it seems to be an option if you have access to a 3D printer.



View attachment 913313

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How did the costs compare to buying a sled.....?
i.e. time spent building the model, materials etc (obviously the cost of the printer wouldn't factor in).

 

[vsc]

The material cost was ~0.60 cents. Print time was 8 hours, though one can speed that up at the risk of a less refined result. The model was found on Thingiverse.

All that said getting someone to print it in ABS, or at least PETG, might be more appropriate given the higher working temperature of the plastic. From a material cost it's largely a wash, though a printer you might find at your local library is unlikely to be able to print ABS.

 

[macstatic]

I have a single (non-raid) Toshiba 10TB MG06ACA Series 3.5 " SATA drive in my Mac Pro 5,1 and I have had no issues with it.

It does require the different mounting sled for installation.

I'm running Mojave and I use the drive for backups.

I'm considering the 8 TB version of the above Toshiba for my main storage drive (the price difference between it and the 6 TB version is negligible while the 10 TB is a bit too expensive for my needs). OWC also sells them, which I take as a quality statement and a confirmation that they work in the cMP.
How do you find the noise levels and its performance in general?

I haven't decided on which 8-10 TB backup drive I should go for yet, but suppose a slower drive might be sufficient for that with the benefits of being cheaper and quieter perhaps.

 

[Plutonius]

I'm considering the 8 TB version of the above Toshiba for my main storage drive (the price difference between it and the 6 TB version is negligible while the 10 TB is a bit too expensive for my needs). OWC also sells them, which I take as a quality statement and a confirmation that they work in the cMP.
How do you find the noise levels and its performance in general?

I haven't decided on which 8-10 TB backup drive I should go for yet, but suppose a slower drive might be sufficient for that with the benefits of being cheaper and quieter perhaps.

I use the drive for time machine backups.

The noise of the drive operating is noticeable when my Mac is backing up. You can't hear it between backups.

Since I'm only using it to back up, I'm not sure of the performance. I'm assuming that the performance is comparable with other spinners.

I bought mine at OWC.

 

[kohlson]

I'm assuming that the performance is comparable with other spinners.

Drives vary somewhat. Testing just now on my cMP internal drives (SATA 2) the 7200 256MB cache drive gets about 170 MBps, while the 5400 64 MB cache gets about 105 MBps. Both are 4TB. An external USB3 8TB gets about 90 MBps. The faster internal HDD can sometimes be heard.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

The 16TB Exos gets up to 250MB/s

 

[macstatic]

I use the drive for time machine backups.

The noise of the drive operating is noticeable when my Mac is backing up. You can't hear it between backups.

You mean seek noise (tick tick...) or the constant "brrrrr"/"whooosh" of the drive spinning? I can handle the first, but not a loud second type.

Drives vary somewhat. Testing just now on my cMP internal drives (SATA 2) the 7200 256MB cache drive gets about 170 MBps, while the 5400 64 MB cache gets about 105 MBps. Both are 4TB. An external USB3 8TB gets about 90 MBps. The faster internal HDD can sometimes be heard.

Which drives are those? Desktop or enterprise?
Are those typical SATA-III HDD transfer speeds which one can expect?

The 16TB Exos gets up to 250MB/s

That's an enterprise drive, right?
I've been looking through lots of drives using online price comparison sites and considered the 8 TB version of the Seagate Exos 7E8 (I assume this is the same series as yours) but having read several Amazon reviews stating it's both noisy and running hotter than other drives I think it might not be the drive for me.

 

[Plutonius]

You mean seek noise (tick tick...) or the constant "brrrrr"/"whooosh" of the drive spinning? I can handle the first, but not a loud second type.

I don't hear the "whoosh" of the drive spinning.

The seek noise however is very noticeable during a backup.

 

[kohlson]

Which drives are those? Desktop or enterprise?
Are those typical SATA-III HDD transfer speeds which one can expect?

The faster one is a Seagate Enterprise
Well, it's what I expect from SATA-III drives connected to the SATA-II bays in my cMP.
Drive performance is the result of many things beyond interconnect speed (Sata-2 is 3Gbps, Sata-3 is 6 Gbps). Seek time and rotational latency adversely impact performance.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

You mean seek noise (tick tick...) or the constant "brrrrr"/"whooosh" of the drive spinning? I can handle the first, but not a loud second type.




Which drives are those? Desktop or enterprise?
Are those typical SATA-III HDD transfer speeds which one can expect?




That's an enterprise drive, right?
I've been looking through lots of drives using online price comparison sites and considered the 8 TB version of the Seagate Exos 7E8 (I assume this is the same series as yours) but having read several Amazon reviews stating it's both noisy and running hotter than other drives I think it might not be the drive for me.

It goes for about $390:

Seagate 16TB HDD Exos X16 7200 RPM 512e/4Kn SATA 6Gb/s 256MB Cache 3.5-Inch Enterprise Hard Drive (ST16000NM001G)

Seagate brings innovative helium technology to the Exos X16 hard drive. The drive is designed for maximum storage capacity and the hiest rack-space efficiency. Features a 16TB drive in the same 3. 5-inch footprint for 33% more petabytes per rack compared to leading 12TB drives. Helium-enabled low...

www.amazon.com

You can get an iron wolf version for about 320, but I've had too many of those go bad way too fast. Now I only trust the Exos enterprise line for my NAS and time machine backups.

 

[macstatic]

Your "thick rubber band" will eventually deteriorate and then fail.

if I were you I would buy a standard HDD drive sled for your Mac Pro.

1. Lay the ( unplugged ) Mac Pro on it's side.

2. Connect the new HDD

3. Slide the newly bought "Drive sled" in

3,1 Now maek where the current sled holes are - now work out where the correct mounting holes should be drilled
in the drive sled by marking the existing holes and then doing the math.

4. Drill the new holes.

Voila !

Looking at photos of the original and OWC drive trays, it occured to me that this can pose a problem as the drive is lifted away from the tray surface, and getting longer drive screws might pose a problem (at least I haven't found any when searching), but maybe a spacer (see photo below) mounted to the HDD at the appropriate length will solve this, then mount the drive to the drive tray's new holes with normal drive screws.

 

[macstatic]

I'm having trouble deciding on a drive despite having read through numerous threads, specs and customer feedback -probably because "I want it all" (reliability, performance and low noise). It seems you can't get it all but have to choose.
So I understand I'd need to go for an "enterprise" drive if I want reliability and performance while for low noise I need to look into "desktop" type drives where reliability is a matter of luck (at least this is the impression I have from reading customer feedback on various sites).

I use my Mac Pro a lot, but it's all for non-business/non-critical use, so low noise (or as low as possible at least) is desirable. But of course I want performance as well -I'm slowly starting to use DAW software for making music, and will probably be editing home videos soon too.
Is there a middle ground? I believe an 8 or 10 TB drive will be a good investment (I was initially thinking 6 TB, but a larger drive will probably save me from buying yet another drive for a while).

A thought (after having read what's possible to do with a cMP these days) ?❓?❔?❗...
Get a good quality 6-10TB HDD (7200 RPM, large cache) and preferrably with low-noise as well, then invest in an NVMe PCIe SSD (say, 1 TB) for temporary work-storage of "performance critical files". And when done, those files will be transferred over to the HDD. That way I could sacrifice a little HDD performance if the gain is lower noise/heat (which again means lower fan noise).

 

[kohlson]

A thought

This is what I do in editing 4K video in FCPX. Working drive is a 1TB NVMe. Near-line storage are SATAs. Second-line storage is 8TB USB.
I have both desktop, NAS, and enterprise drive in SATA bays. Yes, the enterprise is noisier, but only when it's doing something. The rest of the time it sounds like all the others - very quiet. The advantage of this 7200RPM/256MB cache drive is it's 50%+ faster than the 5400/64MB NAS drive right next to t. When transferring 50-100 GB projects, this works for me.

 

[macstatic]

That's quite interesting about the noise level of 7200 drives.
So it's the drive seeking that you can hear more in enterprise drives, so you'll hear more of that "tick tick tick" sound?
I already have a 7200 drive as my main storage drive (3 TB Seagate Barracuda ST3000DM001-1CH166) and its noise level is fine with me, so something similar in terms of noise would be good.
It seems noise levels are hard to find in the specs of enterprise drives....

My apologies if you've already mentioned it and I've missed it, but is your Seagate Enterprise drive one of those in the "Exos" series that Zombiephysicist in post #221 says he has?

Sounds like a nice and well thought out setup you have there. And I'm thinking that with an NVMe "work drive" I don't have to be concerned about making it bootable either (I'll probably end up upgrading my cMP to 10.12 or 10.13 but without buying a new graphic card for now at least, which I understand means I won't have the boot ROM upgraded to 144.0.0.0.0 either which I believe is what's needed to make NVMe SSDs bootable. I already have a couple of regular 2.5" SATA SSDs which are bootable, and used for apps/MacOS).