MacRumors Giveaways... Why are they only open to U.S. residents?

[Sheza]

THIS!

Unless you have really deep legal budget pockets and running international contests is your main focus then simply ignoring international law is playing Russian roulette. Doing all the research for 196 countries is expensive so I can understand when a site like MR does basic due diligence and decides where they will draw the line.

Another person afraid of the boogeyman!

Guys, my posts go through this in detail. I'll summarise:

1. There is no need to spend the time and money to research giveaway laws in every single country, you can just do it; and
2. If you do it, there is hardly any risk, due to the large series of 'ifs' that have to be jumped through before you even get to being found liable by a court of competent jurisdiction. Let alone the likely minuscule fine that would be levied on you.

It's clear that many similar sites and channels have accepted points 1 and 2 and continue to provide international giveaways to their fans, members, and subscribers.

Macrumors are well within their rights to refrain from doing international giveaways, but I'm pointing out why their fears are so heavily over-estimated.

 

[millerj123]

Well now, I’m convinced! Thanks!

I love this thread:

Do it
No
Do it
No
Do it....

 

[Plutonius]

If you do it, there is hardly any risk

Wouldn't you agree that it's the owners decision if they should take the risk ?

 

[cmaier]

Another person afraid of the boogeyman!

Guys, my posts go through this in detail. I'll summarise:

1. There is no need to spend the time and money to research giveaway laws in every single country, you can just do it; and
2. If you do it, there is hardly any risk, due to the large series of 'ifs' that have to be jumped through before you even get to being found liable by a court of competent jurisdiction. Let alone the likely minuscule fine that would be levied on you.

It's clear that many similar sites and channels have accepted points 1 and 2 and continue to provide international giveaways to their fans, members, and subscribers.

Macrumors are well within their rights to refrain from doing international giveaways, but I'm pointing out why their fears are so heavily over-estimated.

You’re very brave with other people’s money

 

[Sheza]

Wouldn't you agree that it's the owners decision if they should take the risk ?

Do take the time to read the last sentence of my post.

 

[ApfelKuchen]

Another person afraid of the boogeyman!

Guys, my posts go through this in detail. I'll summarise:

1. There is no need to spend the time and money to research giveaway laws in every single country, you can just do it; and
2. If you do it, there is hardly any risk, due to the large series of 'ifs' that have to be jumped through before you even get to being found liable by a court of competent jurisdiction. Let alone the likely minuscule fine that would be levied on you.

It's clear that many similar sites and channels have accepted points 1 and 2 and continue to provide international giveaways to their fans, members, and subscribers.

Macrumors are well within their rights to refrain from doing international giveaways, but I'm pointing out why their fears are so heavily over-estimated.

One may obey the law solely out of fear of being caught/penalized. One may also obey the law out of respect for the rule of law.

Maybe I'm wrong, but perhaps part of the subtext of "the burden of complying with international laws is too great" is that MR's management believes in voluntarily following the law.

 

[Clarkk]

Well now, I’m convinced! Thanks!

I love this thread:

Do it
No
Do it
No
Do it....

And then after all, it goes yes

 

[Plutonius]

I noticed that the latest giveaway that ends April 3rd is back to the original language and just mentions the 50 US states (not Canada).

Has MacRumors reverted to the previous guidelines of just the 50 states or is it just for the current give away ?

 

[WildCowboy]

I noticed that the latest giveaway that ends April 3rd is back to the original language and just mentions the 50 US states (not Canada).

Has MacRumors reverted to the previous guidelines of just the 50 states or is it just for the current give away ?

It's a one-time change at the request of Jackery.

 

[Plutonius]

It's a one-time change at the request of Jackery.

I figured that with the prize being a battery and the limitations of shipping batteries.

 

[djgamble]

Has MacRumors reverted to the previous guidelines of just the 50 states or is it just for the current give away ?

LOOOLz back to the USA and all of Canada aside from the oddity that is Quebec.

It's hilarious that they assume the rest of the world and Quebec are one and the same simply because they got a breach notice saying 'HEY!!! THIS ISN'T IN FRENCH!!! OUR LAW SAYS ALL DETAILS NEED TO BE IN BOTH LANGUAGES!!!'

Commonsense says:
- Quebec's weird... it's just them and their weird hang-up about not wanting to lose dual French/English labelling.

MR says:
- OMG WE NEED TO BLOCK OFF THE ENTIRE WORLD RIGHT NOW!!!

---

FWIW this came up during COVID-19 when countries gave Canada safety equipment. Quebec was like 'HOW DAAAARE THEY SEND ALL THE INSTRUCTION IN ENGLISH!!!! WE SPEAK FRENCH!!! WE ARE SPECIAL!!!!'

People basically laughed it off and were like 'loool we are GIVING you safety equipment and COVID-19 tests!!! JUST TAKE IT AND SHUT UP OR WE WON'T SEND IT AT ALL...'

They took it and shut up.

 

[darkarn]

I find it strange that this thread gets linked to every giveaway

Every time this is done, it seems as though that these rules might be changed if we argue about it enough here but at the end we only get told that the rules won't be changed anytime soon etc.

Why repeat this cycle again when the decision is already firm since years ago? Why not just include a statement about this at the very beginning of each (new, not those already posted of course) giveaway article that explains this decision and which areas can have it (I understand that not all times Canada can have the giveaway)?

To be exact, that

Due to the complexities of international laws regarding giveaways, only U.S. residents who are 18 years or older and Canadian residents (excluding Quebec) who have reached the age of majority in their province or territory are eligible to enter.

paragrah should be at the top so that we can see at first glance whether to continue with the article since some of the giveaway articles do show cool stuff that we may want to buy in the future (which is the actual point of the giveaway), or to simply move on as yes, I think the main issue here isn't the laws per se but rather the "getting your hopes high over an item you are interested in but then getting your hopes shot down after 5 paragraphs" effect

 

[Plutonius]

I find it strange that this thread gets linked to every giveaway

Every time this is done, it seems as though that these rules might be changed if we argue about it enough here but at the end we only get told that the rules won't be changed anytime soon etc.

Why repeat this cycle again when the decision is already firm since years ago? Why not just include a statement about this at the very beginning of each (new, not those already posted of course) giveaway article that explains this decision and which areas can have it (I understand that not all times Canada can have the giveaway)?

To be exact, that

paragrah should be at the top so that we can see at first glance whether to continue with the article since some of the giveaway articles do show cool stuff that we may want to buy in the future (which is the actual point of the giveaway), or to simply move on as yes, I think the main issue here isn't the laws per se but rather the "getting your hopes high over an item you are interested in but then getting your hopes shot down after 5 paragraphs" effect

I believe that whomever is supplying the product to MacRumors for a give away is doing it primarily to advertise the product.

Putting the statement up top would probably be counter productive to the prize supplier's goal of having people read the five paragraphs.

 

[JustAnExpat]

How about a competition open to the world. How hard can it be to sort out the legalities and postage of a prize to people worldwide? Make us log in with Facebook to enter or something if it'll help.

VERY hard! To my understanding, it may fall under international law (think WTO). This website does not have the legal staff to run a giveaway.

 

[laptech]

The thing is, if Macrumors promotes itself as an 'international' site then the giveaways could be seen as being discriminatory because all countries excepet the US and Canada are exclude from the giveaways. BUT if Macrumors promotes itself as US site which allows people from other countries to register then thats OK only as long as the site makes it specifically clear that the site is for US residents but allows people from other countries to register.

 

[Sheza]

VERY hard! To my understanding, it may fall under international law (think WTO). This website does not have the legal staff to run a giveaway.

Oh no! International law!!

What do you honestly think is going to happen?

 

[darkarn]

I believe that whomever is supplying the product to MacRumors for a give away is doing it primarily to advertise the product.

Putting the statement up top would probably be counter productive to the prize supplier's goal of having people read the five paragraphs.

Ah that makes sense too

 

[TiggrToo]

The thing is, if Macrumors promotes itself as an 'international' site then the giveaways could be seen as being discriminatory because all countries excepet the US and Canada are exclude from the giveaways. BUT if Macrumors promotes itself as US site which allows people from other countries to register then thats OK only as long as the site makes it specifically clear that the site is for US residents but allows people from other countries to register.

Oh, please. Really?

You really think that this is somehow ‘discrimination’?

Good luck finding anyone who’ll want to take that on!

Want to show exactly which international trade law you feel is being broken here?

 

[laptech]

Oh, please. Really?

You really think that this is somehow ‘discrimination’?

Good luck finding anyone who’ll want to take that on!

Want to show exactly which international trade law you feel is being broken here?

It does not come under any trade laws but gambling/gaming/giveaway prize laws

The EU in particular is very specific about prize giveaways in that if a forum advertises it self as 'international' then prizes must be open to ALL countries. If Macrumors advertises itself as an 'international' forum then it's giveaways break EU law but if it states that it's a US/Canada forum then it doesn't.

 

[TiggrToo]

It does not come under any trade laws but gambling/gaming/giveaway prize laws

The EU in particular is very specific about prize giveaways in that if a forum advertises it self as 'international' then prizes must be open to ALL countries. If Macrumors advertises itself as an 'international' forum then it's giveaways break EU law but if it states that it's a US/Canada forum then it doesn't.

Please quote the exact law in question so I can reply with a more complete response.

 

[I7guy]

It does not come under any trade laws but gambling/gaming/giveaway prize laws

The EU in particular is very specific about prize giveaways in that if a forum advertises it self as 'international' then prizes must be open to ALL countries. If Macrumors advertises itself as an 'international' forum then it's giveaways break EU law but if it states that it's a US/Canada forum then it doesn't.

Every website in the world can be considered international unless there are ip restrictions in place, that's the nature of the web.

 

[jmurphyau]

I'm not reading 15 pages, so apologies if these questions or statements are repeats:

1. why not restrict access to that particular post to only countries where the giveaway is happening? Or exclude countries (IPs) where you know it's not available.. even without a complete list and even if you know you won't be blocking that whole country - something is going to be better than nothin. Then combined with your disclaimer you can add 'we attempt to hide competitors from places where it's not available- if you're seeing this and would prefer not to, get in touch and we can look into blocking your ISP providedits complete IP range is within a country that we don't offer competitions for'

2. where are majority of your visitors from? Top 5, top 10? Have you attempted to add any other country? I hope you have tried to set this up in the top countries your viewers are from

3. if someone from a country not currently offered the competition is able to do the research and provide you enough detail (for example the relevant laws, or even an official source for the laws in that country (of which there might be more than one source, based on the areas in those countries), and maybe a way to contact each authority), will you consider adding said country? By that I mean actually research and make sure you will not be breaking any laws, or contact to the relevant authority if any pieces are unsure?

for number 3, I originally wrote 'comply with any laws', but then re-worded it to 'will not be breaking any laws' - I'm no lawyer but you would think that as long as you don't break any laws that's what you would be aiming for - not finding laws that particularly allow a certain thing.. if there's nothing that covers the source of the prize or the source of the competition, I would think that a competition and prize from anywhere in the world would apply the same as a competition and prize from the local pub. If there are no laws that mention postage, imports, transfer of prize from organisations to winner, then I would think that again a prize from the local pub vs a prize from macrumors would be the same - in both cases it's up to the competition organiser to handle (even if 'handling' is saying 'prize winner is responsible for all taxes and compliance on receipt of prize')

I woke up and read this competition and I'm still half asleep, and that's when I feel I come up with the most bul***it, so apologies if the above post (or any part of it) may fall under that bul***it category ?

 

[jmurphyau]

(note: this post is a follow on post to one I made a few minutes before it. The post before this post is currently not visible while this post doesn't have the same message. The previous post is awaiting moderation approval)

I wanted to also add: macrumors could set a precedence here.. I seen a lot of posts basically saying that all these other sites only offer to the US, or to provide examples of sites that allow it outside of the US - why should what others do matter?
You could be the first and hey why not open source it so others can do the same - create a GitHub repo with all the references to competition laws and whether you allow competitions in said country with a bit of an explanation. Allow others to contribute (via PRs), and open up the whole internet to offer competitions in a wide range of counties

if a reader is unhappy, they can go and have a look at the exact laws, then they could take that away maybe get in touch with that authority to ask some questions.. or maybe contact their local member for government, make a complaint.. even go as far as trying to get the competition laws changed to allow this type of thing.. you never know the extent your readers might go.. if it's open sourced that same person can submit to get the repo changed.. if the repo contains a list of sites/organisations with their view on offering a competition in each location, plus maybe a contact method, then any user who says 'hey you can now allow competitions in my country' can also let each organisation know

 

[Sheza]

@jmurphyau You raise a number of interesting options and ideas, although I think that most of them require more effort (and relative cost) than if MacRumors were to just.... do it. Run an international giveaway.

I am a lawyer, and you’re right: laws either prohibit something or compel someone do something. The law isn’t positively phrased - it doesn’t (often) say ‘you can do X if you want’.

But this brings me back to the concept of the legal bogeyman. MacRumors has very little to worry about. They know that their giveaway is legal in the US, the country they operate in. So we’ve already covered off the country with immediate jurisdiction over MacRumors LLC. It’s also likely that the majority of users are from the US, so that covers off a lot of the user base as well.

From there, things only get more remote. Who is likely to sue? How much is it going to cost them to bring a claim? Will it be worth it? Does their local court have jurisdiction over a US company? What will the damages amount to?

The risk is very low.

 

[TiggrToo]

@jmurphyau You raise a number of interesting options and ideas, although I think that most of them require more effort (and relative cost) than if MacRumors were to just.... do it. Run an international giveaway.

I am a lawyer, and you’re right: laws either prohibit something or compel someone do something. The law isn’t positively phrased - it doesn’t (often) say ‘you can do X if you want’.

But this brings me back to the concept of the legal bogeyman. MacRumors has very little to worry about. They know that their giveaway is legal in the US, the country they operate in. So we’ve already covered off the country with immediate jurisdiction over MacRumors LLC. It’s also likely that the majority of users are from the US, so that covers off a lot of the user base as well.

From there, things only get more remote. Who is likely to sue? How much is it going to cost them to bring a claim? Will it be worth it? Does their local court have jurisdiction over a US company? What will the damages amount to?

The risk is very low.

As was basically mentioned before: you’re very generous with other people’s risk and money.

You must be a lawyer!