Agreed. I almost considered the Cintiq Companion but need to wait it out since I'm a graphic artist myself. I'm still happy with my Intuos 4 hooked to the iMac for the time being. But yes, Apple needs to offer something like that in relation to pressure sensitivity and increased specs for the stylus use which is vital for precision work.
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'Modbook Pro X' Tablet Based on 15-Inch Retina MacBook Pro Debuts on Kickstarter
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Agreed. I almost considered the Cintiq Companion but need to wait it out since I'm a graphic artist myself. I'm still happy with my Intuos 4 hooked to the iMac for the time being. But yes, Apple needs to offer something like that in relation to pressure sensitivity and increased specs for the stylus use which is vital for precision work.
That seems to be it. Not really a bad thing since people are getting something most of the time.
They "steal" Mac sales?
Maybe Apple could start actually COMPETING for sales instead of just monopolizing them. OS X is more than competant enough to stand on its own and frankly, Apple hardware has left a lot to be desired in recent years with absolute crap GPUs, few included ports, no internal expansion with no model with PCI slots any longer, few options for optical drives for those that need/want them and very high prices. I think some actual hardware competition would do the consumer a LOT of good in those regards. And no it is NOT "competition" to say go buy a Windows machine. That's like telling someone to buy an electric vehicle that wants a gas powered one just because it has heated seats and car they're looking at doesn't.
Yes, I heartily agree, there are way too many devices that are called "tablets". Some even look similar but they all have completely different purposes. The confusion caused by this haphazard labeling is evidenced by the comments in this thread. Someone needs to put their foot down and define things once and for all (not just for this thread but for the entire world)! Here are my suggestions: devices that have desktop processors, no keyboard, and screen input (you'd have to specify which kind: either pen-input, touch-input, or both), like the Modbook and the Motion Computing M1400, be called "slate computers"; pen-input devices with no screen, like the Wacom Intuos, be called "digital drawing pads"; screen pen-input devices like Wacom Cintiq be called "pen-enabled monitors"; portability-focused, touch screen devices with non-desktop processors, like the iPad, be called "tablets" (we'll let them have the name); and laptop-tablet hybrids, like the SP3 and Lenovo Yoga, be called "laptop-tablet hybrids". (Did I miss anything?) Some of the names are not sexy from a marketing standpoint, but at least they're somewhat clear, dang it. And none of the names overlap unless they're meant to. I'm gonna start referring to them in this manner, and if anyone wants to join me they can!
I don't think this particular device is meant to bridge the gap between laptop and tablet or anything like that. It simply adds drawing functionality to the rMBP for serious digital artists. The keyboard was only shed because it gets in the way of drawing. So though it LOOKS like a tablet, it's really a heavy duty laptop (with the keyboard buttons taken off and the screen mounted to the body), and it's meant to be used mainly in heavy duty laptop type scenarios--at the desk, on the lap, or held for a very short length of time. That's why it doesn't have a touch screen, because even if it had a touch UI like iOS, it would be too heavy to use as in that manner. Touch UI is mainly beneficial on a device that you're holding, but for most people, for general use, a slate 15" rMBP would be much too heavy. I think for Apple it always comes down to those keywords "most people" and "general use". As all we know, they only cater to the general use cases of the masses (which is why they won't even give artists a pen-enabled laptop, and specialized services like the Modbook have to exist). In my opinion, the closest thing to what you're looking for is the Surface Pro 3, besides it obviously running Windows. It comes with size and performance sacrifices, but with current technology, it's the closest you can get to an all-in-one device for the masses. I think at this point the best you can hope for is Apple making something similar to it, but even that is highly unlikely knowing Apple.
They "steal" Mac sales?
Maybe Apple could start actually COMPETING for sales instead of just monopolizing them. OS X is more than competant enough to stand on its own and frankly, Apple hardware has left a lot to be desired in recent years with absolute crap GPUs, few included ports, no internal expansion with no model with PCI slots any longer, few options for optical drives for those that need/want them and very high prices. I think some actual hardware competition would do the consumer a LOT of good in those regards. And no it is NOT "competition" to say go buy a Windows machine. That's like telling someone to buy an electric vehicle that wants a gas powered one just because it has heated seats and car they're looking at doesn't.
I don't have any strong opinions about the validity of Hackintoshes, so I won't argue with you there. But from a sales standpoint, it's hard to deny that using an unlicensed Mac OS on non-Mac hardware takes away a potential Mac sale from Apple, which is why Apple opposes Hackintoshes and not the Modbook. That's all I was saying.
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sorry I missed this.
Yes definitely worth it. there's not much I can say other than you might get tired if you don't have a properly levelled desk and proper chair.
Yes, I heartily agree, there are way too many devices that are called "tablets". Some even look similar but they all have completely different purposes. The confusion caused by this haphazard labeling is evidenced by the comments in this thread. Someone needs to put their foot down and define things once and for all (not just for this thread but for the entire world)! Here are my suggestions: devices that have desktop processors, no keyboard, and screen input (you'd have to specify which kind: either pen-input, touch-input, or both), like the Modbook and the Motion Computing M1400, be called "slate computers"; pen-input devices with no screen, like the Wacom Intuos, be called "digital drawing pads"; screen pen-input devices like Wacom Cintiq be called "pen-enabled monitors"; portability-focused, touch screen devices with non-desktop processors, like the iPad, be called "tablets" (we'll let them have the name); and laptop-tablet hybrids, like the SP3 and Lenovo Yoga, be called "laptop-tablet hybrids". (Did I miss anything?) Some of the names are not sexy from a marketing standpoint, but at least they're somewhat clear, dang it. And none of the names overlap unless they're meant to. I'm gonna start referring to them in this manner, and if anyone wants to join me they can!
I don't think this particular device is meant to bridge the gap between laptop and tablet or anything like that. It simply adds drawing functionality to the rMBP for serious digital artists. The keyboard was only shed because it gets in the way of drawing. So though it LOOKS like a tablet, it's really a heavy duty laptop (with the keyboard buttons taken off and the screen mounted to the body), and it's meant to be used mainly in heavy duty laptop type scenarios--at the desk, on the lap, or held for a very short length of time. That's why it doesn't have a touch screen, because even if it had a touch UI like iOS, it would be too heavy to use as in that manner. Touch UI is mainly beneficial on a device that you're holding, but for most people, for general use, a slate 15" rMBP would be much too heavy. I think for Apple it always comes down to those keywords "most people" and "general use". As all we know, they only cater to the general use cases of the masses (which is why they won't even give artists a pen-enabled laptop, and specialized services like the Modbook have to exist). In my opinion, the closest thing to what you're looking for is the Surface Pro 3, besides it obviously running Windows. It comes with size and performance sacrifices, but with current technology, it's the closest you can get to an all-in-one device for the masses. I think at this point the best you can hope for is Apple making something similar to it, but even that is highly unlikely knowing Apple.
I don't have any strong opinions about the validity of Hackintoshes, so I won't argue with you there. But from a sales standpoint, it's hard to deny that using an unlicensed Mac OS on non-Mac hardware takes away a potential Mac sale from Apple, which is why Apple opposes Hackintoshes and not the Modbook. That's all I was saying.
I'd argue that hackintosh users wouldn't buy a mac just for the OS in the first place.. it's not taking sales away from apple. if anything it's boosting the platform user base if only by a fraction, exposing users that wouldn't have otherwise have access to it, and maybe they'll consider investing in the future in apple products.
And it still takes a lot of knowhow to hackintosh a computer or build one from scratch. plus seems like most apple users buy macbook pros anyway, hackintoshing a laptop is a pain in the ass and most of the time something will never work, most people don't want to deal with that.
I like the concept, but by the time you drop $4000 you might as well get a Surface Pro 3 and call it a day.
What besides the few Mac OSX only apps could this thing run that a fully loaded Surface Pro 3 couldn't?
Not to mention . . . . . it's $4000!
What besides the few Mac OSX only apps could this thing run that a fully loaded Surface Pro 3 couldn't?
Not to mention . . . . . it's $4000!
Just from what I’ve gathered, it seems like there are at least 3 types of scenarios in which people use Hackintoshes (assuming they work decently):
1. Someone who doesn’t know Mac OS well and wants to try it out.
- That’s definitely not a lost sale if they decide to continue using it and follow through and buy it. It’s likely that in some cases it would actually be a GAINED sale IF that person would never have decided to buy a Mac otherwise. But since there are an infinite number of ways someone could get introduced to Mac OS, who really knows how often that's the case.
2. Someone who likes Mac OS but Macs are too expensive.
- I believe this is true: if something is absolutely not available unless you pay a certain price for it, and you don't have that price, but you still want it, your mind will creatively search for NEW ways to pay for it. What didn't seem like a possibility before, becomes a possibility, because otherwise you are CONSISTENTLY faced with the reality of doing without that thing. This was always the case before the digital format (and piracy), but now no longer. Since we already have it for free, we aren't put into a situation that constantly encourages to think of new creative ways to pay for it. (*See below for a story about my friends as a real life illustration.) So at best, it's neutral, not a lost sale--which may not be the case as often as one might first think. And at worst, as I'm sure is at least sometimes the case, it is a lost sale.
3. Someone who likes Mac OS, but Mac hardware doesn't float their boat.
- Under first sale doctrine, you could argue (and I personally agree with this) that you should be able to install any software you buy on any hardware you buy (if you have the know how). However as we know, the problem is Apple packages Mac OS and Macs together so that you can’t buy one without the other. You could see this as crafty or shrewd, but in either case it's a legitimate strategy universally accepted in all kinds of trade (all sellers do it). So the only way to install Mac OS onto non-Mac hardware without a loss of sale, is to "strip" the OS from a previously purchased Mac. Otherwise, if they somehow get an illegal copy without buying a Mac, it’s a lost sale.
The original question was whether or not hackintoshes cause lost sales, which is all I'm trying to address. I don't go so far as to say whether or not the lost sale itself is justified. That would be a whole other topic that I don't really have an opinion about. But it still seems to me that overall, Hackintoshes would cause more lost sales than gained sales. Just my take.
A real example of my friends that illustrates uncreative vs. creative thinking:
I have a good friend, we’ll call him John, who started downloading pirated music a long time ago during college. At the time he argued that it was all music that he would never buy anyway because he was a poor student. Our other friends and I didn't really believe him but didn't care enough to argue. It wasn't provable either way, anyway.
During the same time, our other good friend, we’ll call Bobby, was also a poor college student that loved music, except he was not very tech savvy and wasn’t too aware of the whole downloading music for free thing. But Bobby really liked music. His roommate told us he would go so far as to use his financial aid money that he should have been using to buy textbooks and food to buy a new CD every week.
I believe both of them loved music equally. But the difference was John had an “out” with pirated music, and Bobby didn’t. John assumed he would never choose to buy music, and to him that justified downloading it illegally. He was never forced to find out if his claim was true or not because he already had what he wanted. But because Bobby didn’t know about the “out”, he eventually came up with an "out of the box" way to pay for what he wanted (even though he went way overboard).
Epilogue: about a decade later John makes a decent living and buys all sorts of nice things, but has yet to start paying for music. -_- Bobby also eventually found out about downloading pirated music and has since stopped paying for music. -_-
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Yes, I heartily agree, there are way too many devices that are called "tablets". Some even look similar but they all have completely different purposes. The confusion caused by this haphazard labeling is evidenced by the comments in this thread. Someone needs to put their foot down and define things once and for all (not just for this thread but for the entire world)! Here are my suggestions: devices that have desktop processors, no keyboard, and screen input (you'd have to specify which kind: either pen-input, touch-input, or both), like the Modbook and the Motion Computing M1400, be called "slate computers"; pen-input devices with no screen, like the Wacom Intuos, be called "digital drawing pads"; screen pen-input devices like Wacom Cintiq be called "pen-enabled monitors"; portability-focused, touch screen devices with non-desktop processors, like the iPad, be called "tablets" (we'll let them have the name); and laptop-tablet hybrids, like the SP3 and Lenovo Yoga, be called "laptop-tablet hybrids". (Did I miss anything?) Some of the names are not sexy from a marketing standpoint, but at least they're somewhat clear, dang it. And none of the names overlap unless they're meant to. I'm gonna start referring to them in this manner, and if anyone wants to join me they can!
I will join you, your suggestions are very well thought out!
Thanks, I shall put this on my Christmas list, haha!
Which is why Apple should sell/license the OS for use on other hardware or at the very least license a single company to make the types of "models" that Apple doesn't want to make themselves such as the "X-Mac" or blade servers, etc. Then they'd get an OS and license sale for every Mac sold and perhaps a lot more people that might otherwise switch to Windows to get the kind of hardware they NEED would stick with the Mac platform instead. I know I've been tempted many a time for gaming alone to build a Hackintosh since Apple seems to think they don't need to provide decent GPUs at a reasonable price point. You can get a great gaming PC for $1200. For $1200 on a Mac, you can get a Mini (when they keep them up to date which isn't often enough) with plenty of ram and drive space, etc. (e.g. my Server has a 2TB RAID 0 drive and 8GB of ram) but the GPU is still piddly. Now Intel GPUs ARE improving, but they're still way behind and not updating models like the Mini as often as Macbooks mean desktop gaming will NEVER even have a CHANCE of taking off in OS X. There's just no reason the Mac couldn't be a viable gaming platform other than Apple's refusal to offer appropriate hardware, drivers and an up-to-date OpenGL.
Its easy to argue the hypothetical when its someone else's $ on the line.
Perhaps you're right, perhaps Hackintosh will actually generate them more sales. Or perhaps if they let the top of the bottle the genie will escape and they'll never get it back in. It could be that Apple pursuing Hackintosh merchants legally is keeping it niche and difficult. But if they stopped, the market would grow, the "products" would mature and all of a sudden every man and his dog starts to use Hackintosh' instead of Macs :/
Put yourself in their position, would you (honestly) take that risk when you're making money hand over fist?
Restricting use of standalone copies of the OS is far more of a grey area then "upgrade" copies. Fair use comes into play. Once you've let me buy a full copy of the software who are you to tell me how to use it. Whereas if I only provide the software with my hardware, but then periodically provide updates for my customers, anyone that's never purchased my hardware is "stealing". Its obvious the latter is a far stronger position, I make not comment on wether it is right or wrong though. As an analogy, consider if you built a digital watch and then went to the Seiko site, downloaded a software update they have for their customers and used that on your watch.
Also, They currently control the hardware and build the OS for it. Who builds the software support in the OS for the new hardware if they open things up? If they're just going to "license a single company" to presumably make a few additional bits of hardware, why not just make it themselves? They do class themselves as a hardware company first and foremost, after all? On the other hand, if its going to be a free for all, do they want to wake up and find they're Microsoft (not meant in a derogatory way)? It seems to me, if anything Microsoft has inched a bit more Apples way, rather then the other way around.
The issue with discussions like this is the skewed perception we have when it comes to valuing things. We're accustomed to valuing something we can see and touch, like hardware. Where as software isn't really something you can touch or see, so it must be trivial or not as costly to create. From Apples current position it would be a long and arduous road to become a MS type software vendor supporting a myriad of hardware (just as MS is finding in the other direction).
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You used to be able to buy it on a disc so it was less of a moral issue, at least. I won't get into licensing law, etc. Personally, I only care to be able to get the tasks done with a computer I want to get done and Apple lack of certain models can be a PITA regardless of whether fanatics on here think many other people would want a gaming Mac or XMac or whatever.
I'm just saying it would be nice to be able to get the hardware I WANT rather than what Apple feels like selling. With most computer manufacturers this is largely not an issue because they make generic cases that you can populate with whatever hardware choices you desire. Apple has not really done that since the PowerMac (Mac Pro is really a different market, but at least it was an option before if you really wanted it; now it's pretty much priced into the stratosphere and no longer has useful upgradable features anymore anyway). I do a LOT of different things on my computers and so saying something like "Mac users don't game" is absurd. Of course, I game. My Windows machine is getting a bit long in the tooth, though. I have gotten a lot of games for my Mac Mini, but it has its limits, even if you install Windows.
Given Apple now gives you copies of ALL App Store software for as many computers as you own, it looks even greyer to me so long as I own at least one compatible real Mac. I own two Mavericks/Yosemite capable Macs and one PPC one so I'm able to run every version of every OS (even late OS9 from boot) ever made for the thing.
Who does it for Windows? Microsoft makes some things like Universal type drivers and coordinates licensed 3rd party drivers. Other drivers are made by the companies that sell the 3rd party hardware. I think it's a non-issue in that regard.
Obviously, because they don't "believe" there's a large enough market for that product or they don't like the looks, style or whatever about it as a "look" for official Apple products (Apple is very fashion-conscious these days it seems). Whatever the reason, the "risk" is no good for them. However, letting another company take the risk for a market segment that Apple is not interested in could still benefit them greatly. Just to give one example, a gaming Mac. Apple appears to have zero interest in making a capable gaming machine. They have always left it up to 3rd parties to make decent gaming cards for Mac Pros, etc. and they never marketed that machine that way, but they never stopped people from using it that way either (whether dual-boot or even just running Mac games faster). They probably consider gaming a lost cause in some respects or are waiting for some kind of critical mass in the App store sales or something before they consider pushing it. Regardless of their thoughts on it, if someone else wanted to take the risk of selling a gaming Mac, they could license them to do it with almost zero risk to themselves and make money there regardless then plus they gain potential customers for more of Apple's software products like Final Cut X, Logic Pro X, etc. It's a win-win situation so long as they limit the risk to those models (i.e. instead of a free-for-all "clone" situation).
Now maybe no one has approached them for some of those markets or maybe they've got other reasons, but I know I'd prefer more hardware choices. I don't care if a tower looks crappy. It sits under my desk. I'd rather be able to play a game with a crappy looking tower than not play it with some fancy looking Mini or iMac or whatever. But gaming is just one thing I like to do sometimes. It'd be just nice to have ONE machine that does it all rather than have to buy multiple machines.
You used to be able to buy upgrade discs, they never sold it as a stand alone OS. Go back to my watch analogy and think if it would be permissible for someone to make their own watch and use upgrades Seiko provide for their own watches to drive it.
Ofcourse if you'd originally bought a Mac, it broke and you chose to build a Hackintosh (instead of paying Apple to fix it) I think you'd have a very strong fair use argument. But since they only ever sell their OS with their hardware, how does one legally obtain it to use? As soon as they start selling stand alone full OS discs, they open up fair use.
You say that likes its trivial to create and maintain software which will work with any hardware. Microsoft are an OS vendor and develop their OS to work with third party hardware from the onset. Apple develop their OS to work with a few specific hardware configurations. They'd have to reconsider many aspects of how they build their OS and setup new agreements and procedures with third party's to enable them to move to a Microsoft type position. Even if they left it to third parties to deal with making their hardware work with OSX, they'd still have to consider the effects of future development of the OS on this myriad of hardware configurations.
I have no view on which model is better, both have pro's and cons. But ultimately theres no half way house, because as soon as they let the OS loose into the third party domain they start to incur some of the issues and constraints that go with that. Therefore IMO they either have to go all the way to MS's position as an OS vendor that also makes some hardware, or they may as well stay where they are.
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johnnyturbouk
macrumors 68000
agree
i had wished apple did something like this, ever since i got one of them keyboard cases for the ipad.
With the advent of saphire glass, this would be an interesting prospect
the fact that people are saying 'if you want OSX on a tablet, get an ipad' shows me that even apple worshipers have almost no idea how many uses people have for their machines. i also find it strange that people think using a stylus stops at note-taking in notability with a rubber nub. are professional artists really that much of a fringe demographic to most folks? lol
Third party warranty not on the "original" hardware... it's no different than a Squaretrade warranty really.
Now let's see if they can mod it to a Surface Pro with a transforming keyboard like you see in multifunction pocket devices. I hope it has better cooling because I don't to burn my nuts. Thats my Gaming PCs job...
Pretty much everyone who would otherwise use a pen for productive work. Artists, designers, engineers, mathematicians etc. And everyone who needs to take notes on a regular basis.
OK, how do I run Photoshop or Illustrator on that? Or a virtual machine with Windows 8?