MP 7,1 Most won’t be able to afford a new Mac Pro

[Zellio]

Me too, and I'm also adept at sorting issues, the point is other people aren't and it's not a skill they are inclined to acquire.



Remember we're talking about commercial environment here, most will have on-site support, and if too small for that a support agreement with a local company, yes you may have to wait for them to come on site but the chance of an issue (note issue, not necessarily failure) with a verified and supported setup is lower in the first place.



So now we're also assuming that not only do they have the skills to diagnose the issue, but they have to keep a stock of spare parts for their self-assembled machines? Or are they having to wait for new parts in the post or travel to a store to get them (and hoping they diagnosed correctly)?

This kind of things i fine for a hobbyist or a techy, it is not fine for a commercial setting. Building and supporting your own machines is great, but it's not a productive use of time or money in this environment for anyone except the edge cases.

Maybe not for a large commercial setup, but for a small one it's far better

Or for one you own

You guys keep acting like building your own takes a long time and only hobbyist do it, and you can't be a businessman if you build your own. A little bit ironic considering the company you guys follow was founded by people who made a business by building computers don't you think?

 

[amedias]

You guys keep acting like building your own takes a long time and only hobbyist do it, and you can't be a businessman if you build your own.

No I think it's just that when you can do it you assume others can. For most people it's knowledge and skills they don't have, and frankly don't want to have. They might be able to learn, as you say it's not difficult, but it is time consuming the first time round, and you then need the inclination to want to do it and to keep supporting it.

Those are hours and effort that they could otherwise put into other tasks, whether that be money making tasks at work, or time at home with family.

Also, don't under estimate the fact that many many people are adept at using computers to get their work done, but couldn't tell you which bit was the ram, and which the CPU if you took the cover off, you don't need to understand how a computer works or fits together to use it to produce something.

For the vast majority the extra few £/$ spent up front when buying kit is a worthwhile price to make it "someone else's problem", especially when you get some extra level of verification and support, building yourself you simply can't do the same level of testing and verification that an OEM can, and that does have value.

 

[Zellio]

No I think it's just that when you can do it you assume others can. For most people it's knowledge and skills they don't have, and frankly don't want to have. They might be able to learn, as you say it's not difficult, but it is time consuming the first time round, and you then need the inclination to want to do it and to keep supporting it.

Those are hours and effort that they could otherwise put into other tasks, whether that be money making tasks at work, or time at home with family.

Also, don't under estimate the fact that many many people are adept at using computers to get their work done, but couldn't tell you which bit was the ram, and which the CPU if you took the cover off, you don't need to understand how a computer works or fits together to use it to produce something.

For the vast majority the extra few £/$ spent up front when buying kit is a worthwhile price to make it "someone else's problem", especially when you get some extra level of verification and support, building yourself you simply can't do the same level of testing and verification that an OEM can, and that does have value.

Alright I agree to that (Well maybe not the 'you need to keep supporting it' line. It's just another pc in the end. They all use the same parts today except for things like ecc. You buy quality stuff it lasts a long time). TBH it's just a suggestion and it goes back to hedt. Maybe instead of build your own I should've just said 'Dude go buy a dell?'

For me personally, if something goes wrong I fix it. I can take apart and fix cars, I can weld, I know basic electrical knowledge (by basic I mean I could easily be hired for most tasks), I know plumbing... All of this was done by fixing up my house myself and the fact that I spent my childhood taking things apart. I built my home gym, I upgraded my house, I hate calling people for something when I can do it myself. In the end it's yours. It's something to be proud of. You can pick out stuff to refurnish your house at lowes, but you can't have the satisfaction of doing it yourself. I can, but I suppose not everyone has a chain saw (both large gas powered and small electrical), electric circular saw, milter saw with table attachment, electric pole saw (although it's made by poulan pro, as in you keep pullin, it's not exactly the company with the best reputation, so lets see how long it lasts....), electric reciprocating saw, and oscillating saw, and that's JUST my collection of power saws......

So maybe not everyone has a full garage worth of power tools or the knowledge or skill to repair things. Maybe people haven't done it since they were children like me. I still think if you believe you can do that it would be a good idea. It saves money, it makes you more independant, it makes you the boss. Otherwise I guess we agree to disagree.

 

[amedias]

I don’t disagree with the concept, like you I build and maintain my own stuff, but it’s just remembering that not everyone is like that and so it’s not always appropriate.

Part of being in IT is understanding your users needs, not just the technology they need but how they use it and the environment they use it in.

One of the guys I support could save thousands if I/he built his computers from parts, but he literally has no idea how computers work, he just needs (a powerful) one to do his work and has no inclination to learn how to build or fix one as it’s of no interest to him. He is quite typical of commercial users, even at the high end.

 

[Zellio]

I don’t disagree with the concept, like you I build and maintain my own stuff, but it’s just remembering that not everyone is like that and so it’s not always appropriate.

Part of being in IT is understanding your users needs, not just the technology they need but how they use it and the environment they use it in.

One of the guys I support could save thousands if I/he built his computers from parts, but he literally has no idea how computers work, he just needs (a powerful) one to do his work and has no inclination to learn how to build or fix one as it’s of no interest to him. He is quite typical of commercial users, even at the high end.

Well again it's just a suggestion. It's always my first. If you can, do. Sure if you're gonna **** it up I wouldn't suggest it. But this isn't brain surgery.

Anyway I suppose if you need to use osx my next suggestions would be the used market for 5.1 and 6.1. The 2013 base mac pro seems to go for a 'good' price of around $1000, and it's pretty easy to upgrade to a 12 core on that. And the 12 core processors can be had for $200 and up! That honestly has me tempted a tad... If only this ****ing keyboard diDN'T SUCK SO MUCH HOLY **** WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS BUTTERFLY **** APPLE

 

[William Payne]

I know some incredibly skilled people who I wouldn't trust with a screwdriver.

 

[Zdigital2015]

Well again it's just a suggestion. It's always my first. If you can, do. Sure if you're gonna **** it up I wouldn't suggest it. But this isn't brain surgery.

Anyway I suppose if you need to use osx my next suggestions would be the used market for 5.1 and 6.1. The 2013 base mac pro seems to go for a 'good' price of around $1000, and it's pretty easy to upgrade to a 12 core on that. And the 12 core processors can be had for $200 and up! That honestly has me tempted a tad... If only this ****ing keyboard diDN'T SUCK SO MUCH HOLY **** WHY DID YOU MAKE THIS BUTTERFLY **** APPLE

I worked as the Project Manager of a small group of designers, but being a small company, I also had to do hardware and software repair and tech support. I could have built Hackintoshes, but I just didn't want the headache of keeping up with them, because I had staff who would break them within a day software-wise. Downtime was non-billable and I had no time to troubleshoot things unless it ground them to a halt. I have built my own PCs, you're right it is not rocket science, but for me now, it isn't 30 minutes to build, its a couple of hours. And that couple of hours gets in the way of taking care of clients needs, because my primary job is Project Manager...and so while I would say that you cannot compare a list of parts you put together yourself to a finished Mac Pro that you take out of the box and set up, the added cost is a no-brainer if it means that I spend just 2-3 hours every 30-36 months setting up a new Mac, transferring files from old to new and that designer just keeps on going. At their hourly billing rate, a Hackintosh would be a disaster and they are not Windows people at all, ever...its just a complete non-starter.

I know some incredibly skilled people who I wouldn't trust with a screwdriver.

AMEN!!!

Or to make sure the gas range is turned off!

 

[Zellio]

I worked as the Project Manager of a small group of designers, but being a small company, I also had to do hardware and software repair and tech support. I could have built Hackintoshes, but I just didn't want the headache of keeping up with them, because I had staff who would break them within a day software-wise. Downtime was non-billable and I had no time to troubleshoot things unless it ground them to a halt. I have built my own PCs, you're right it is not rocket science, but for me now, it isn't 30 minutes to build, its a couple of hours. And that couple of hours gets in the way of taking care of clients needs, because my primary job is Project Manager...and so while I would say that you cannot compare a list of parts you put together yourself to a finished Mac Pro that you take out of the box and set up, the added cost is a no-brainer if it means that I spend just 2-3 hours every 30-36 months setting up a new Mac, transferring files from old to new and that designer just keeps on going. At their hourly billing rate, a Hackintosh would be a disaster and they are not Windows people at all, ever...its just a complete non-starter.



AMEN!!!

Or to make sure the gas range is turned off!

Well yeah, if it goes into hackintosh realm I'd definitely call that 'hobbyist territory', a simple update to the os can brick it after all...…. And that's not even talking about how long it takes to get it working.

But for me it's all about having my own thing. It's like customizing a car. I suppose most don't but if you can take it apart and repair various parts or simply upgrade them you feel good.

Anyway, I still suggest the used market for those wanting mac pro parts and not having 6 grand for parts you'd need to replace (ahem, the small ssd and the ram would eventually get replaced)

 

[flygbuss]

Maybe not for a large commercial setup, but for a small one it's far better

Or for one you own

You guys keep acting like building your own takes a long time and only hobbyist do it, and you can't be a businessman if you build your own. A little bit ironic considering the company you guys follow was founded by people who made a business by building computers don't you think?

It's not about saving money, it's about earning it. I want to keep maintenance and setup time as low as possible.
Sometimes it's too much hassle with setting up additional audio hard and software in the studio already.
If I'm looking then for help it's just way more easy if my hardware is not too much customized.
I work with Avid hard- and software and they give me exact specs about which hardware they support.
I don't wanna install any asio drivers or think of possible incompatibilities between my DAW and a virus scanner.

Hackintosh is great. But nothing I would use for my business since it's not licensed.

 

[Zdigital2015]

I beg to differ ... the future is doing more with less - in this regard, I feel satisfied because I'm not doing less with my Mini vs my old setup - I'm doing more. That 600hp Bentley (MacPro) doesn't phase me because I have no roads suitable to drive on.

Without wading into the whole Pro vs PRO debate, not knowing your situation, I am guessing that the 2014 Mac mini would not have had enough horsepower for you to do your Pro work. It would not have for mine, while the Late 2014 27" Retina 5K iMac may have been enough horsepower and the 2013 Mac Pro enough horsepower and then some depending on the configuration.

My point being that the 2014 mini had almost zero overlap with the 2014 5K iMac and the 2013 Mac Pro, while the 2014 5K iMac and 2013 Mac Pro had overlap to a point, at least in benchmarks, and until you moved to the 8- or 12-core, you might not have felt left out of the party doing work on the iMac versus the MacPro? Sorry to make it complicated.

With the introduction of the 2018 Mac mini, all three tiers have enough horsepower to be faster than the 2017 27" iMac and overlap heavily with the 2019 27" iMac, at least until you hit the Core i9. In fact, all of the CPUs used in the 2018 Mac mini are also in the 2019 iMac by default or as a BTO option (i7-8700/B), which was something that had been sorely lacking for the past 4 years after the 2012 was replaced.

Plenty of people have viable 5,1 Mac Pros that will last a few more years, but certain PRO workflows have had massive increases in the requirements, so that a 1080p/30 8-bit workflow that was possible on an older Mac Pro 5,1 has been replaced with a 4K/60 10-bit HDR workflow that brings some modern computers to their knees and puts a stake through the old 5,1.

With the Mac Pro 5,1 and 6,1 now being outclassed by the Mac mini, the bar for entry ($$$) into a lot of Pro workflows was lowered the day Apple introduced the 2018 mini.

What I am trying to "argue", for lack of a better term, is that certain specific workflows that are either in their infancy (4K HDR) or have yet to really even start in earnest (8K) were Apple's primary targets with the 2019 Mac Pro did not exist in 2009-2012 (Golden Age of the Mac Pro) or even in 2013 (that thing everyone seems to hate) and that had they been at that time, the Mac Pros of the day (2009-2013) would have been woefully inadequate. Instead, 1080p/30p or 60p content ruled the day and was a fairly well-established workflow by then. When Apple decided to build the 2019 Mac Pro, I think they started at the high end (28c, 24c and maybe 16c) as their baseline and actually worked backwards to increase the number of Pro who could take advantage of the new Mac Pro as the original spec started at $20K and went up from there. And so, to reach as many people as they could, they pared back the configuration until they arrived at a price they thought would be palatable considering they missed about 3 generations of updates to the 2013 Mac Pro and all the consequent chances to raise the prices gradually to that level. Six years with an upgrade every two years of CPU/DRAM/GPU/SSD and they could have bumped it up in 2015 to a $4000 minimum, 2017 could have moved it to PCIe 3.0 and TB3, I think (have to double-check) and $5K base, which would have matched the iMac Pro) and finally this year, a new chassis, new CPUs, new MPX, et al and a rise in price to $6K.

Anyways, I think Apple's answer for their lack of attention to the Mac Pro since 2013 has been to increase the capabilities of the iMac and iMac Pro at the higher end and then they shored up the bottom end with a truly capable 2018 Mac mini. Now, they have returned to the higher end past the iMac Pro and to be at the cutting edge of certain specific workflows to appeal to their most eager potential customers. Just my 2¢.

 

[AlexMaximus]

The way the non pro enthusiast fan boy can afford it is to keep that pimped 5.1 for at least another 24 - 36 Month and go for a used 7.1 then.

I am real happy with that Vega VII at the moment. Mojave support will not run out anytime soon.

@Zdigital2015 I completely agree with you. It is stunning how much power the new consumer iMac has when it’s customized to the max. I am not sure if I will ever need more than that.

 

[ssgbryan]

I beg to differ ... the future is doing more with less - in this regard, I feel satisfied because I'm not doing less with my Mini vs my old setup - I'm doing more. That 600hp Bentley (MacPro) doesn't phase me because I have no roads suitable to drive on.

You don't do more with less - you do less with less - that's why it is called less.

How are you doing more when you have a thermally throttled computer?

 

[masterbaron]

How are you doing more when you have a thermally throttled computer?

My workflow in the past rarely utilized the full potential of the MacPro - the escalating cost forced me to re-evaluate my actual needs and level-set my projected needs ... surprisingly the 2012 Mini stepped in and I haven't looked back - so, in my case I'm getting more functionality per cycle with less power consumption and bling - my workflow has fully exploited my 3 Mini (s) which are still performing way past the 4 year life of my first MacPro and my second used one.

Power, speed and flexibility have traditionally experienced exponential gains with each generation of products enabling users to do more with less expensive machines in the line-up as time moves forward.

 

[ssgbryan]

That would be the difference - my workflow will take everything I can throw at it and will still ask for more.

 

[dazzer21-2]

Without wading into the whole Pro vs PRO debate, not knowing your situation, I am guessing that the 2014 Mac mini would not have had enough horsepower for you to do your Pro work. It would not have for mine, while the Late 2014 27" Retina 5K iMac may have been enough horsepower and the 2013 Mac Pro enough horsepower and then some depending on the configuration.

My point being that the 2014 mini had almost zero overlap with the 2014 5K iMac and the 2013 Mac Pro, while the 2014 5K iMac and 2013 Mac Pro had overlap to a point, at least in benchmarks, and until you moved to the 8- or 12-core, you might not have felt left out of the party doing work on the iMac versus the MacPro? Sorry to make it complicated.

With the introduction of the 2018 Mac mini, all three tiers have enough horsepower to be faster than the 2017 27" iMac and overlap heavily with the 2019 27" iMac, at least until you hit the Core i9. In fact, all of the CPUs used in the 2018 Mac mini are also in the 2019 iMac by default or as a BTO option (i7-8700/B), which was something that had been sorely lacking for the past 4 years after the 2012 was replaced.

Plenty of people have viable 5,1 Mac Pros that will last a few more years, but certain PRO workflows have had massive increases in the requirements, so that a 1080p/30 8-bit workflow that was possible on an older Mac Pro 5,1 has been replaced with a 4K/60 10-bit HDR workflow that brings some modern computers to their knees and puts a stake through the old 5,1.

With the Mac Pro 5,1 and 6,1 now being outclassed by the Mac mini, the bar for entry ($$$) into a lot of Pro workflows was lowered the day Apple introduced the 2018 mini.

What I am trying to "argue", for lack of a better term, is that certain specific workflows that are either in their infancy (4K HDR) or have yet to really even start in earnest (8K) were Apple's primary targets with the 2019 Mac Pro did not exist in 2009-2012 (Golden Age of the Mac Pro) or even in 2013 (that thing everyone seems to hate) and that had they been at that time, the Mac Pros of the day (2009-2013) would have been woefully inadequate. Instead, 1080p/30p or 60p content ruled the day and was a fairly well-established workflow by then. When Apple decided to build the 2019 Mac Pro, I think they started at the high end (28c, 24c and maybe 16c) as their baseline and actually worked backwards to increase the number of Pro who could take advantage of the new Mac Pro as the original spec started at $20K and went up from there. And so, to reach as many people as they could, they pared back the configuration until they arrived at a price they thought would be palatable considering they missed about 3 generations of updates to the 2013 Mac Pro and all the consequent chances to raise the prices gradually to that level. Six years with an upgrade every two years of CPU/DRAM/GPU/SSD and they could have bumped it up in 2015 to a $4000 minimum, 2017 could have moved it to PCIe 3.0 and TB3, I think (have to double-check) and $5K base, which would have matched the iMac Pro) and finally this year, a new chassis, new CPUs, new MPX, et al and a rise in price to $6K.

Anyways, I think Apple's answer for their lack of attention to the Mac Pro since 2013 has been to increase the capabilities of the iMac and iMac Pro at the higher end and then they shored up the bottom end with a truly capable 2018 Mac mini. Now, they have returned to the higher end past the iMac Pro and to be at the cutting edge of certain specific workflows to appeal to their most eager potential customers. Just my 2¢.

Pretty much my take on it, too.

 

[masterbaron]

my workflow will take everything I can throw at it and will still ask for more.

Perhaps then, you shouldn't attempt to bare the burden solely yourself - off to the farms maybe ...

 

[ssgbryan]

Perhaps then, you shouldn't attempt to bare the burden solely yourself - off to the farms maybe ...

Are you offering to pay for it? For me, 3d Art is a hobby. A hobby that can only be realized on a workstation.

I can build a farm if needed. A Z-210 set up as part of a render farm (4 core/8 thread - 32gb ram) is cheaper than a video card. For the price of a top of the line video card, I can have 5 Z210 (20 cores/40 threads 160 gb ram) as well as both of my 4,1s and my 1,1.

 

[Onelifenofear]

LMAO.... I hope you aren't serious, if you are I hope you aren't the one giving others advice... Not even the 2013 mac pro sold well or even decently

I actually know for a fact it did - Apart from the ones I See everywhere as a freelancer - I have inside knowledge of Mac Sales (in Europe at least). It's not selling MILLIONS because it's not that kind of product. Dell doesn't sell millions of T9s or other workstations.

 

[gregohb]

Here is a math question. What is the next number in this sequence : 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, x?

I believe the pricing history was something like this
2013 Mac Pro $3k
Metal Tower $2.5k
Plastic iMac-like Mac tower $2k

The answer for apple is 6.0 as in $6k. And thats for the base amateur model. How much will the 27 core be? Probably getting close to $15k with that new. $5k monitor. You can buy a new Prius for $22k, so getting close.

And as cool as it looks in a retro way, I dread a 50 lb block of steel in my office again.

 

[pastrychef]

Here is a math question. What is the next number in this sequence : 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, x?

I believe the pricing history was something like this
2013 Mac Pro $3k
Metal Tower $2.5k
Plastic iMac-like Mac tower $2k

The answer for apple is 6.0 as in $6k. And thats for the base amateur model. How much will the 27 core be? Probably getting close to $15k with that new. $5k monitor. You can buy a new Prius for $22k, so getting close.

And as cool as it looks in a retro way, I dread a 50 lb block of steel in my office again.

I think I paid over $2000 a few times for Power Mac G4s back in the early 2000s. Those were consumer level computers that competed against consumer level PCs. Do you remember the snail?


Fast forward almost two decades. Apple still has consumer level Macs at around the same price level of those old Power Mac G4s. Heck, they even come with a monitor built-in.


The new Mac Pros are on a different level and are NOT meant for average consumers.

 

[dysamoria]

All that talk about building machines... I don't know why I would be special, but my experience with PC builds has been an utter nightmare. I'm not inexperienced. I take advise, too, where it is offered, from far geekier and supposedly more informed techies. Still, I have found PCs and Windows combos to be 100% VOODOO INSANITY.

I have watched rooms full of IDENTICAL PCs with IDENTICAL drive images boot at different speeds and suffer different inconsistent behaviors. I've watched Windows break itself countless times (Windows Update not being the only culprit). There is often no corrective measure to be had other than "wipe it out and start over", and there is almost NEVER an explanation for what caused the problem.

I actually watched PC geeks blow off spontaneous BIOS settings changes as "one of those mysteries" and then leave it. I've watched the standard answer to all Windows/PC problems be "reinstall" or "replace [insert part that should be fine here]", throwing time and money at these piles of crap endlessly. It's like there's no interest in KNOWING WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON. Worse: It might not even be POSSIBLE to know. Microsoft's knowledge base and support is the model for this mentality. There are NO ANSWERS to "why".

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me six times, NEVER EVER AGAIN will I deal with you! What's the lie? IT'S NOT ME; IT'S NOT THE USER. IT'S THE INDUSTRY.

I'd prefer to abandon computers (which are, and have always been my primary tool for everything) entirely, rather than continue to be an unwilling slave to the monstrous baby that is the Windows PC assembly. I am NOT alive to feed this narcissistic wanna-be tool. If I am not paid, it's not my job to figure out why a tool spontaneously fails to do the damn thing it's supposed to do. I don't even WANT to be paid to be a tech support person anymore; it's a miserable life of never being able to actually FIX something or stop it repeating on the users.

The sheer amount of hypernormalization around these piles of crap is astounding and terrifying. The things people will adjust to, when they have no idea what the alternative is... Or when they're inculcated into a culture of belief that "this is just the way things are"...

... and thanks to Apple's insane greed and growing market stupidity (and the Apple-religious fans all over the web making sure to bash any reasoned criticism), I may indeed be pushed to just giving up entirely.

 

[Moonjumper]

I don't need the ability to option to build my own machines, but I would like to be able to switch out storage, RAM, etc. Something the Mac Pro allows.

But a Mac Pro is more than I need, and the price much more than I wish to pay. The ability to switch components is not what makes it expensive. It could be done for something lower spec.

iOS devices are the main sales driver for Apple. Macs make the apps that help those sales. I am one of those app developers. I want the ability to switch out drives after failures to keep me productive (the HDD failed on a previous iMac and took the Apple Store a long time to fix), and to add drives if I work on a new graphics intensive apps that consume space, or to change to a better GPU if I start working on porting to Macs.

Swappable components is as much about practicality as it is outright power, but the Mac Pro is only really for those who need top end power. One area a low spec tower would address is those who contribute to the Apple ecosystem. Like the OP, I'd like to see a "$1500-$2500 breakout tower".

 

[ChrisA]

All that talk about building machines... I don't know why I would be special, but my experience with PC builds has been an utter nightmare. I'm not inexperienced. I take advise, too, where it is offered, from far geekier and supposedly more informed techies. Still, I have found PCs and Windows combos to be 100% VOODOO INSANITY.

..... I may indeed be pushed to just giving up entirely.

Note that ALL of the above is actually about MS Windows, not about computers in general. I've never figured out why people would select Windows as their OS except that many people don't know there are other options.

I think the last version of Windows I actually bought was Windows 95.

The only good reason to use a Windows PC is that your employer pays you to use it.

 

[ssgbryan]

Note that ALL of the above is actually about MS Windows, not about computers in general. I've never figured out why people would select Windows as their OS except that many people don't know there are other options.

I think the last version of Windows I actually bought was Windows 95.

The only good reason to use a Windows PC is that your employer pays you to use it.

They select windows because that is what their software runs on. A lot more software than both OSX and Linux combined.

Windows 10 is as stable & reliable as OSX. (And it pains me to point that out.).

 

[DoofenshmirtzEI]

They select windows because that is what their software runs on. A lot more software than both OSX and Linux combined.

Windows 10 is as stable & reliable as OSX. (And it pains me to point that out.).

How do you get it to stop coming on at random times? Everybody in the house runs a Windows box but me, and there have been persistent problems with it just waking up for no discernable reason and after a couple hours googling and trying to fix it, I've had to put my foot down with "Nyet! I will not do Windows tech support!"