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skitidetdu

macrumors 6502a
Mar 7, 2013
876
877
Sweden
Are we talking about artists that also write the songs? If the artist didn’t write the song then they don’t have any rights to the royalties. Only the publisher and the writers are included in the split and then it is standard that the publisher gets 30% and the writers split the rest. Unless it is a mega huge artist that can claim percentage only because of who they are. It has been like this ever since records started selling.
 
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kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,603
1,909
Apple Music and Podcast streaming rates should be the same 70/30 split as what app developers get on the App Store.

Apple needs to get correct on this.
No, it isn’t really Apple’s problem. I suspect that the rights holders actually get better than a 70/30 split on Apple Music. It’s an issue with a downstream system, an issue that predates the Apple Corp vs Apple Computer legal issues or even the founding of Apple. Apple has little power to determine the split an artist gets as part of their contract with their label.

Edit: As for podcasting, I believe that IS the split. The podcast provider (often the people making the podcast, unless it’s a corporate podcast) gets the fat side of the split, and I’m pretty sure it’s a 70/30 split.
 

DesignTime

macrumors 6502
Feb 15, 2021
280
661
This is how taxes work too. I see very little of my earnings after the government, insurance companies and healthcare takes their cuts. And if I want to live like a 2021 person, internet, cell and car companies get their cuts. I’m not saying the music industry doesn’t need change. I’m saying the world needs a change. Why are the ones who sit at big desks get all the money?
 

Saturnine

macrumors 65816
Oct 23, 2005
1,487
2,452
Manchester, UK
I’m a bit torn on this. On balance I believe the market should set prices. It’s a slippery slope once you allow a government to start setting prices and profit margins.

I do believe that the people who write and create the music deserve a bigger piece of the pie. Of course they do. But no-one is forcing them to sign agreements with recording companies or publishers. There’s no gun being pointed at their head.

As a musician, do you want to sign a deal that gives you 50% of sales profit but gives you an audience of 1,000 people. Or do you want to sign the deal that gives you 1% of sales profit but gives you an audience of a billion people? And that’s where the big companies are grabbing musicians by the short and curlies.

So on balance I believe this is where the market needs to self regulate. The most talented musicians ought to be able to shop around for the best deals. Universal offering 10%? Well go ask EMI for 15. The trouble is that the publishers and recording companies have very little interest in actual talent - and paying more for it. They’d rather find someone good looking, bang on the autotune and tell people it’s ambrosia.
 
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Mousse

macrumors 68040
Apr 7, 2008
3,511
6,749
Flea Bottom, King's Landing
The trouble is that the publishers and recording companies have very little interest in actual talent - and paying more for it. They’d rather find someone good looking, bang on the autotune and tell people it’s ambrosia.
Aye. Letting them dictate the direction of the music industry has left an indelible stain upon human culture. [CURMUDGEON]Lyrics used to have meaning, music used to be good, singers used to have talent.[\CURMUDGEON]
 

skitidetdu

macrumors 6502a
Mar 7, 2013
876
877
Sweden
Aye. Letting them dictate the direction of the music industry has left an indelible stain upon human culture. [CURMUDGEON]Lyrics used to have meaning, music used to be good, singers used to have talent.[\CURMUDGEON]
The record companies follow the money - not what is musically best.
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,603
1,909
The record companies follow the money - not what is musically best.
Hype only gets a group or person so far, look at the “career” of Jimmy “Orion” Ellis. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), that means that those things you (or I, for that matter) don’t like about modern music are things that some people are willing to pay a significant load of money on. We might not like it, but someone (who may indeed have poor taste, or maybe they have good taste within a niche that we’d view as bad taste) is willing to part money to the music industry for supplying it.
 

buckwheet

macrumors 6502
Mar 30, 2014
454
499
OF COURSE the music labels are complaining. The idea that fair treatment of artists would "damage investment in new music" is such a crock of s***. They barely even need to invest in new music, these days. And besides, when they do "invest", they spend waaaaay more than they need to, on almost all aspects of a project, and it's the artist that's on-the-hook for the over-spend, at the end of the day. What a joke. The majors couldn't be more full of s***... It's an industry founded on exploitation and the execs are hell-bent on keeping it that way.
 
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Michael Scrip

macrumors 604
Mar 4, 2011
7,931
12,487
NC
This kind of legislation would definitely bury Spotify (who already have relatively narrow margins)

Speaking of Spotify... they are always running some kind of promotion.

I get emails all the time for "3 months of Spotify Premium for $1" or whatever.

There are probably tens of millions of people at any given moment using one of these deals. But Spotify still has to pay the full royalties on every song those people listen to, right?

So not only does Spotify have slim margins on their full-price $10/month customers... they must be losing money on all the customers using these promotions.

I guess their plan is hopefully those customers will convert to full paid accounts?

But those customers could also go back to a free account... which I've heard still doesn't make Spotify enough money even with the advertising revenue.
 

QuarterSwede

macrumors G3
Oct 1, 2005
9,787
2,049
Colorado Springs, CO
The artist pay issue predates streaming, royalties for music recordings have always been poor. Unless this inquiry leads to changes in compensation rates for physically distributed music, then it’s another “new media bad” or “foreign businesses bad” situation. That last angle is seldom explored, but I think one of the next major political and economic issues of the next couple decades is going to be digital protectionism.

But, for years, it’s been a general rule that artists make their money from touring and live performances. The artist that doesn’t tour is the poor artist. In a certain sense (that’ll seem almost perverse to most people, based on how we usually view this issue), this seems almost fair. It’s the label that makes an ongoing expenditure on the music, not the performer (maintaining copyright and the issues that come up with legal rights holdings, reissuing albums in newer formats, ongoing promotion of tracks and albums, re-printing albums that have gone out of print [less of an issue in digital, but the vinyl resurgence suggests it’s still a going concern], and, much like in any employer-employee relationship, the label takes the brunt of the economic risk of an album [a poor performing album won’t directly bankrupt a performer, but it CAN bankrupt a label]). Additionally, if I perform work for a company and leave for another opportunity, even if the work I performed for the first company results in greater profit, I generally don’t get paid for that, and that’s common for most professions. But because the performer is the public face, we identify more with them than the label. Anyway, touring is far more lucrative because of the merch sales that accompany the tour, the direct pay for time worked, the difficulty in accurately bootlegging a live performance (a live stream is not the same thing as the real deal, even a professional live stream). Touring/live gigs is even more important for self-published indie groups, for all those reasons, and because it’s their major promotional channel, and this despite the fact that they have full legal rights to their music and directly earn the money that would usually be the label’s cut.
This right here is spot on.
 

panjandrum

macrumors 6502a
Sep 22, 2009
711
884
United States
The digital and streaming music is a real mixed-blessing. I know quite a few indie recording artists (including my daughter, who recently released a mostly-classic Jazz album arranged and produced by a Guitar Magazine 'best unsigned guitarist in America' winner) and there is no doubt whatsoever that it's great to be able to get your music heard. If you are technologically capable of doing so, or know someone who can help you for at a reasonable cost, you can, as a small-time indie recording artist release music and eventually expect the break-even on costs. But that's about it. It takes many hundreds of thousands of streams of a song to recoup the production costs.

I think all of them would agree that what the artists want is just a little bit of equitability. If the amount the artist got per stream was maybe, double? That would probably seem pretty fair all around (as an example; my daughter's most popular song has around 100k streams on Spotify, but Spotify and every other streaming platform combined, which I won't bother to add up? $314. Really?)

In the end the best thing we can do is BUY rather than stream. I have always, and still do, purchase records, excuse me, 'vinyl.' (Important note to youngsters: Vinyl is NOT something you play music from. It's what your mum and dad wore clubbing and very likely when they conceived you. No, do NOT unlock that basement door they've always forbidden you to enter!) and CDs because they provide a tangible product with vast appeal beyond what the music alone represents. But even digital purchases of what you like most will go a long way towards providing small artists a boost. I don't mean buy everything, but I do mean buy what you find you cherish most, especially if you wish them to keep creating.

I'm going to stump now for a few great but relatively small indie artists, all of whom I know personally. If you like these examples of their work, please listen to more and then BUY something!

The JoeDai Warriors: Come and Bring me Water - Spotify - YouTube
Michael Kelsey: Goodnight - Spotify - YouTube
Chris Rottmayer: Spotify. Give his arrangement of La Vie En Rose a try (YouTube)
Kyra Alana: Take This Waltz - Spotify - YouTube
Hush Lane: Hold Me Close - Spotify - YouTube
Willie Phoenix: No Signs of Joanna (from his 1982ish A&M album, before they dumped the black-guy because they didn't want him on on the album cover. No kidding, true story.) A little about Willie.
 
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supercoolmanchu

macrumors 6502
Mar 5, 2012
355
623
Hollywood
No, it isn’t really Apple’s problem. I suspect that the rights holders actually get better than a 70/30 split on Apple Music. It’s an issue with a downstream system, an issue that predates the Apple Corp vs Apple Computer legal issues or even the founding of Apple. Apple has little power to determine the split an artist gets as part of their contract with their label.

Edit: As for podcasting, I believe that IS the split. The podcast provider (often the people making the podcast, unless it’s a corporate podcast) gets the fat side of the split, and I’m pretty sure it’s a 70/30 split.
You are totally wrong on ALL counts.

Streaming rates are very far from a 70/30 split. Apple sets their own rates for streaming payouts, which are different than other services' rates.

Podcasting rates are better at 50/50, but there's no reason apps should enjoy a 70/30 split, while digital media is lower. Apps take up more bandwidth, require more backend resources for approving and maintaining on both the store and users's iCloud storage. Audio streaming bandwidth is tiny compared to other data activities.

The iTunes Store under Steve Jobs was set up with very favorable rates for artists. Apple Music under Tim Cook is a flashy scam against artists, that was entirely based on the goodwill that the iTunes Store created.

Apple is very wrong here, as I said before, they need to get correct on this. While app developers squabble in court over much more fair revenue splits, Apple is fleecing other content creators.
 
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kyjaotkb

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2009
937
884
London, UK
Yes - a friend of mine in music said that label contracts start as low as 5% of sales...
If the label finds a writer for the song, records the song, produces it, markets it, distributes it, creates a music video and pays the performer an advance on future earnings (which is not recouped by earned royalties in 80% of cases), then I don't necessarily see the issue. Many singers in pop are just a face that the record label put on songs they produce from A to Z. Labels need to recoup their investments. And of course the labels don't get a cut from touring - i.e. the artist benefits from the promotion the label created around their songs "for free".
 
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kyjaotkb

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2009
937
884
London, UK
I'm siding with the streaming services on this.

Record labels have long stiffed artist royalties.:mad: The sad part is the labels are the one dictating the direction of music today.? I miss the old days when we had real music and singers place greater emphasis on music rather than theatrics. Today's music all sound like noise to me. It's only worth watching on TV, YouTube with the volume turned down.?
Recent studies by bodies such as the BPI have proven that artist royalty shares were higer in the download era than in the physical era, and higher in the streaming era than in the download era. However, consumer spend is vastly different. Instead of having a small number of customers spending hundreds/thousands on album new releases, we now have a mass market where everybody spends $100 a year and most of their money goes to catalogue i.e. established artists.
 

kyjaotkb

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2009
937
884
London, UK
Sounds like an industry issue, not so much a government one. Government should ensure someone gets the proper royalties, but the industry needs to come up with who gets what. If artists are getting stiffed, then they need to consider dumping the old school record studios and start their own. Why do they need record studios these days anyway when most of the songs are sold and distributed in digital formats, and then streamed? Seems like the record industry has outlived its life expectancy. Maybe the artists need to form coops to pool their resources to produce and distribute their own work rather than be lazy and pay the big boys to do it for them. But the change should initiate with and come from within the industry, not through more government red tape. It is hard to believe the artists are starving, considering how they parade around flaunting their wealth, but if they are, then THEY need to change their industry. This is 2021, not 1960 after all.
Reality is artists need major labels more than ever to break through the noise. The quantity of music released is phenomenal and it's extremely difficult to reach a sizeable audience by going indie. Only majors have the marketing bucks. Besides, majors have much better deals than indies because they are big enough to have bargaining power vs companies like Apple. Small DIY distro platforms? Not so much. So that translates to lower royalty rates for artists on majors, perhaps, but these are smaller percentages from much bigger figures. Plus all the financial perks of being signed to a major e.g. health insurance (useful in certain "small" countries without public health systems) and the fact that they pay their artists when they negotiate and sell equity in DSPs like Spotify.
 

TVOR

macrumors 6502
May 6, 2019
262
306
As a full-time music producer/engineer myself, labels aren’t necessarily screwing over artist, that’s not to say they don’t have their fair share of greed like all large corporations. Labels offer larger advances in exchange for smaller royalties percentages, you can also just have a publishing deal with a label and keep a much higher percentage of your royalties. At the end of the day you could still be a successful independent artist, it’s not like labels are the GATEKEEPERS to making any sort of income in the music industry.
As an ex full-time producer I couldn't agree more! Yes...as you said there are good deals and bad deals, but on the whole, the deals where the artists get low percentage splits are where there have been large advances so that's a big financial risk for them as they have no idea what the income will be like. If you are Rihanna then you probably get a fairly substantial advance and a good royalty because you are somewhat of a known quantity. But if you are a new artist in your first deal, it's a huge risk for the record label so the risk/reward ratio will be tipped heavily in their favour.

The other thing is that people are acting like these poor, oppressed musicians are forced to sign to a particular label at gunpoint or something! They all have the choice not to sign a particular deal. If they feel that the deal doesn't give them what they want then don't sign it! It is analogous to going for a job interview, being offered a job for a lower salary than you were hoping, accepting said offer, and then bleating about it on social media to try to bully the company into paying you more! And I am sure that some people reply that that's OK if you have choice but when there is some kind of industry-wide collusion and price fixing then you don't have the choice to say no. Actually...you do...if no labels are offering you the deal you want then go the DIY route (as you suggested) or...and you might want to sit down for this...perhaps consider that you don't have what the labels want and therefore they aren't prepared to take the financial risk...you know...perhaps consider that you aren't actually entitled to a record deal on the terms that you want and either accept what you are offered or go do something else...

Just saying....
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,603
1,909
Speaking of Spotify... they are always running some kind of promotion.

I get emails all the time for "3 months of Spotify Premium for $1" or whatever.

There are probably tens of millions of people at any given moment using one of these deals. But Spotify still has to pay the full royalties on every song those people listen to, right?

So not only does Spotify have slim margins on their full-price $10/month customers... they must be losing money on all the customers using these promotions.

I guess their plan is hopefully those customers will convert to full paid accounts?

But those customers could also go back to a free account... which I've heard still doesn't make Spotify enough money even with the advertising revenue.
Well yeah, and that’s ultimately why they’re pushing on Apple so hard. Their own house is not in order, and they seem to think that being able to offer direct in-app purchases without Apple’s cut will save them. I kinda doubt it would, their business practices doomed them more than anything. I’ve seen job offers in my area at Spotify for a technology stack I actually know decently well (and it might be a pay raise), but I just don’t trust that I would necessarily have a job in the near future if I worked for them.
 
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kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,603
1,909
As an ex full-time producer I couldn't agree more! Yes...as you said there are good deals and bad deals, but on the whole, the deals where the artists get low percentage splits are where there have been large advances so that's a big financial risk for them as they have no idea what the income will be like. If you are Rihanna then you probably get a fairly substantial advance and a good royalty because you are somewhat of a known quantity. But if you are a new artist in your first deal, it's a huge risk for the record label so the risk/reward ratio will be tipped heavily in their favour.

The other thing is that people are acting like these poor, oppressed musicians are forced to sign to a particular label at gunpoint or something! They all have the choice not to sign a particular deal. If they feel that the deal doesn't give them what they want then don't sign it! It is analogous to going for a job interview, being offered a job for a lower salary than you were hoping, accepting said offer, and then bleating about it on social media to try to bully the company into paying you more! And I am sure that some people reply that that's OK if you have choice but when there is some kind of industry-wide collusion and price fixing then you don't have the choice to say no. Actually...you do...if no labels are offering you the deal you want then go the DIY route (as you suggested) or...and you might want to sit down for this...perhaps consider that you don't have what the labels want and therefore they aren't prepared to take the financial risk...you know...perhaps consider that you aren't actually entitled to a record deal on the terms that you want and either accept what you are offered or go do something else...

Just saying....
I’ve noticed that people are often inherently biased in favor of (artists, app developers, employees, etc.) against (employers, app stores, labels, etc.), especially when it’s a familiar face or they identify with them in some way. That’s not to say that employers (I’ll use that term generally now) aren’t in the wrong sometimes, but people’s bias in favor of employees (again, using the term generally) causes them to support the employees even when it’s clear that their demands are unreasonable. Likewise, while corporations can be guilty of malfeasance, so can employees. The employee who embezzles from WalMart isn’t some sort of Robin Hood esque hero character but makes it harder for WalMart to sell goods to its target audience, many of whom need WalMart’s cheap prices to make ends meet and get the necessities and nice-to-haves of life.

And people always feel that they should have more money and will always try to poison public perception in favor of themselves. I saw a YouTube video recently that outlined the pay rates of the men’s and women’s US soccer teams. Men got a higher per-game rate, so some people on the women’s team made noise about equal pay for equal work. What the activists missed or possibly failed to mention is that, with all forms of compensation (even just all forms of monetary contribution), they out-earned the men’s team per game and in absolute terms. The men, in particular, had a pay structure that would not pay out anything in case of a loss, no base salary, no real benefits package, it was frankly a pay structure I’d never accept. The women’s team got paid less with each victory, but they also got a guaranteed salary (higher than mine, if I recall), would get paid even when out for injuries, got paid for losses, had a benefits package (definitely included childcare, may have included retirement).

So, what I’m saying is that, of course artists want to claim they don’t get much from the labels. And royalties are odd, when you think about it. If I made a tool, say a trading algorithm, at work that proved to contribute directly to the firm’s bottom line then left, I would almost certainly not get any share of that profit (unless I retained stock in the firm, perhaps), even as my work continued to build money for them. No job works like that, except for acting, music, writing, jobs with royalty structures. Generally, if I don’t work, I don’t get paid. And even then, most musicians are session musicians. If they don’t perform, they don’t get paid. But people will take their favorite artists’ words against the artists’ producers and labels because of the bias I mentioned earlier.
 

laptech

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2013
3,601
4,006
Earth
The main point of the argument which has not be reported on in the post is that in the UK, the royalty split when a song is played on the radio is 50/50 (is mentioned in the BBC news article). Musical artists want the same for streaming services.

So basically, music streamed over the airwaves (radio) gives artists a 50/50 split but music streamed digitially gives artists 15/85 split.

Also not being reported on is the price streaming services pay for a song, which i will add here
At present, Spotify is believed to pay between £0.002 and £0.0038 per stream, while Apple Music pays about £0.0059. YouTube pays the least - about £0.00052 (or 0.05 pence) per stream.
 

kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,603
1,909
The main point of the argument which has not be reported on in the post is that in the UK, the royalty split when a song is played on the radio is 50/50 (is mentioned in the BBC news article). Musical artists want the same for streaming services.

So basically, music streamed over the airwaves (radio) gives artists a 50/50 split but music streamed digitially gives artists 15/85 split.

Also not being reported on is the price streaming services pay for a song, which i will add here
50/50 between the label and the artists? Who are the parties to this 50/50 and 15/85 split?
 

kyjaotkb

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2009
937
884
London, UK
50/50 between the label and the artists? Who are the parties to this 50/50 and 15/85 split?
Performers get 50% of airplay revenue in the UK, but it's essentially 50% of (almost) nothing. They also get 50% on synchronization, for instance. Different rights yield different splits. But on recorded music (physical, download, streaming) they get their record label deal share, which averages at ~18% (bit higher than the 15% mentioned here) but ranges from very low to very high depending on advances / level of risk and investment from the label etc.
The discussion happening here is certain performers (some of whom owe their careers to major labels) - I'm saying performers, not just singers-songwriters - want streaming to be considered radio so that they get 50% instead of 18%. But of course if we do that, streaming being 80% of the recorded music market, we kill the recorded music labels' capacity to invest in the production and promotion of new records / artists. OR, the public will have to accept hefty price increases at retail so that labels are able to keep the same gross margins as today. TL;DR any change seems very unlikely to happen.
 
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kc9hzn

macrumors 68000
Jun 18, 2020
1,603
1,909
Performers get 50% of airplay revenue in the UK, but it's essentially 50% of (almost) nothing. They also get 50% on synchronization, for instance. Different rights yield different splits. But on recorded music (physical, download, streaming) they get their record label deal share, which averages at ~18% (bit higher than the 15% mentioned here) but ranges from very low to very high depending on advances / level of risk and investment from the label etc.
The discussion happening here is certain performers (some of whom owe their careers to major labels) - I'm saying performers, not just singers-songwriters - want streaming to be considered radio so that they get 50% instead of 18%. But of course if we do that, streaming being 80% of the recorded music market, we kill the recorded music labels' capacity to invest in the production and promotion of new records / artists. OR, the public will have to accept hefty price increases at retail so that labels are able to keep the same gross margins as today. TL;DR any change seems very unlikely to happen.
Oh okay, the 15/85 split is the record company’s revenue, so this is a separate split than than the streaming services’ split.

50/50 seems oddly high. Any idea why the radio split is 50/50? I know the UK’s radio market is drastically different than the US’s. The BBC is the dominant broadcaster and is technically a government broadcaster (I only say technically because I don’t know what the actual ownership structure is, it could even be 100% owned by the government or could even be an office within some branch of government). Private radio stations weren’t really a thing until the late 60s/early 70s and were originally pirate stations, only becoming legal in the 80s and especially 90s. I believe London has local commercial radio, but most other parts of the country have radio networks (particularly on DAB) that, similarly to television in the UK, are on multiplexes. And the country is fairly geographically small. The US, on the other hand, had private entertainment (and later, music) stations from day 1 (though there was an early attempt in the 20s to establish government control over news and weather broadcasts). Radio networks are almost unheard of today, outside of the FM non-profit sub-band. Digital broadcast facilities are owned by individual broadcasters/stations and carry market unique (but potentially syndicated) programming. Transmitters aren’t co-located with competitors’ unless the terrain of the market (natural and manmade) requires all the antennas to be at one spot (like mountainous terrain requiring transmitters to be on the highest mountain capable of supporting broadcast facilities, or skyscrapers causing interference and requiring all the transmitters to be located on the tallest building, like the WTC in Manhattan). And the country is just so much larger geographically than the UK.
 

laptech

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2013
3,601
4,006
Earth
When music was on physical medium (vinyl, CD, tape), artists had much more control of their music and royalties but once the digital age came forward, streaming companies only wanted access to a music label's music catalogue thereby having no need to talk to individual artisits or their agents. All contract talks was done with the music labels whereby the music label could command a better deal for themselves than for the artists and that is what happened and has stayed that way.

It's no different to the business world. Employee's come up with the ideas, the designs, other employee's build that idea/design and it is done so as cheaply as possible but yet it is the owners/shareholders who see the wealth of the money. An artist comes up with an idea, produces that idea but it is the music label who see's the wealth of that idea.
 
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