I’m not saying I agree with them, but does the app not track your location, who you were in contact with, and did not others claim it was required to frequent establishments?
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NHS COVID-19 Contact Tracing App Has Told 1.7 Million in England and Wales to Isolate Since September
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Whilst different places had different rules (or interpretations of the rules), the app wasn’t actually required to frequent most places that I went to. What it did mean was that if you showed you have checked in on the app then you weren’t required to register manually at the venue, by leaving contact details for example.
In practice, most people used the app because if you weren’t going to use it due to privacy concerns then you probably didn’t want to leave your name and number either. Whichever way you were doing it, Boris would still receive the instant notification to tell him that you were having a pint.
As for tracking your location, it has never done that. It keeps a record of your check ins for 21 days (on your phone so, for example, when I changed my phone it lost my checkin history for the previous weeks). It also keeps a record of contacts (secure I ds of people I have been in contact with). If you are tested positive then you have to give permission for those people to be notified.
If you don’t specifically check in then it doesn’t know where you have been.
People have claimed that it is doing stuff it shouldn’t behind the scenes, but with the usual lack of evidence.
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These are from an Ontario thread, and here's our stats from last week. Because of how the app works, I wonder if getting the notification portion is difficult, as I presume all they have is a master list of guids possibly infected:
COVID App Stats to February 04:
- Positives Uploaded to app in last day/week/month/since launch: 61 / 469 / 3,421 / 12,164 (2.0% / 2.1% / 4.0% / 6.2% of all cases)
- App downloads in last day/week/month/since launch: 1,875 / 15,062 / 97,366 / 2,604,277 (62.3% / 43.5% / 39.8% / 42.2% Android share)
Imagine being so selfish that you think installing an “spying” app with little to no privacy risk to protect public health is “following orders”. Not to mention the fact that this is just a private establishment requiring it and not a government mandate. Why not go driving without a license or go to school without vaccinations?
You could still catch COVID from someone 4m away if you spent long enough in the same enclosed space with them.
Lots of comments here (not picking on this particular quote, but I’ve linked it because I had some other things to say as below) slamming people for being selfish and what not, for NOT installing an app... My phone, my choice. I’m not informed enough to know what the app is doing exactly, but I will say that the PRISM revelations by Edward Snowden would have been described as ‘out there’ until that came out... What about those without smartphones? I turn up to a pub with my elderly dad and his friends, and some of them are turned away because the don’t have a phone that can track their movements? Dear me.
Also, is there really a need to label people in such forceful terms and polarise discussion? Again, many other comments, not just yours. I’m not convinced it’s helpful for discussion.
Anyway, my last point is that I fail to see how driving without a licence can be likened to going to school without vaccinations? In the U.K. we are not required by law to have our children vaccinated, yet. My children have all had the main vaccines offered, but my wife and I do not deem it necessary for them to have flu vaccines in school each year because they have no underlying health problems. Are yearly flu vaccines mandatory for children in your country too?
it's tough, because of medical privacy laws, but I can see why people would want proof it isn't doing the things they worry about. Absence of evidence and all...Whilst different places had different rules (or interpretations of the rules), the app wasn’t actually required to frequent most places that I went to. What it did mean was that if you showed you have checked in on the app then you weren’t required to register manually at the venue, by leaving contact details for example.
In practice, most people used the app because if you weren’t going to use it due to privacy concerns then you probably didn’t want to leave your name and number either. Whichever way you were doing it, Boris would still receive the instant notification to tell him that you were having a pint.
As for tracking your location, it has never done that. It keeps a record of your check ins for 21 days (on your phone so, for example, when I changed my phone it lost my checkin history for the previous weeks). It also keeps a record of contacts (secure I ds of people I have been in contact with). If you are tested positive then you have to give permission for those people to be notified.
If you don’t specifically check in then it doesn’t know where you have been.
People have claimed that it is doing stuff it shouldn’t behind the scenes, but with the usual lack of evidence.
It is deeply embarrassing that is the United States, where these APIs originated, still does not have a national app for this kind of thing. The previous administration was criminally incompetent. I hope that the Biden administration has this in the works and that it will be out shortly.
No one is arguing that you have to install it. I’m saying it’s selfish to demand to go to that particular bar that requires the app when it should be at the owner’s discretion to make it required and make sure their patrons are safe.
Then you should read up on how the contact tracing API works. tldr: There’s basically zero chance that personally identifiable information will leak because of how Apple and Google designed it.
I don’t see an issue here. You don’t have to go to a pub to get alcohol, and if you have to go to a pub, go to the ones that don’t require the App, of which there were plenty.
I’m not looking to discuss this issue. I’m simply stating that this commenter is selfish.
I’m talking about vaccines such as the ones for polio and measles which should be required for going to school, not the COVID or flu vaccines. My point is that there are many things that are logically sound and are for the public good that people do not question despite their slight intrusion into personal freedoms, yet they balk at something as simple as installing a contact tracing app on their phones.
Well actually, comment number 3 was arguing for people to install it. As below:
I’m not sure I trust Apple and I definitely don’t trust Google... In order for Apple to have a business in China, don’t they have to comply with China law’s? Food for thought.
In so far as the pub goes, well that’s fine and dandy, and obviously it’s up to the Publican or the Chain. However, if the pub in question, is a pub they’ve always gone to, start requiring the app... Yes, they’ll need to go elsewhere or get a smartphone. Stark choice though don’t you think? Consider a pub these old timers have met in for the best part of their lives, now suddenly telling them they can no longer get in there without a contact tracing app on their phone?! Reeks for me, but that’s my opinion. Some of these old fella’s don’t even have a phone, some don’t have a smart phone. I don’t think this is necessarily progress.
You might be talking about Polio and Measles vaccines etc, but how long before the Wuhan Virus/Covid get’s added to the list? Then where do we go? There’s already discussions afoot about making the Covid vaccine mandatory if you are travelling. We’re on dodgy ground as far as I’m concerned.
I’ve heard the term Covid-1984 a few times but it really does start to reek of piss in so far as the encroachment of people’s civil liberties and daily lives are concerned. And for what? A virus that in the last peer reviewed study I read, has Infection fatality rates ranging from 0.00% to 1.63%, corrected values from 0.00% to 1.54%. Across 51 locations, the median COVID-19 infection fatality rate was 0.27% (corrected 0.23%). The study can be found here:
Of course, I could well be as thick as mince and haven’t read it or understood the figures properly...
I finally bought and held onto an Apple Watch Series 5 for a few months at the start of last year. In the end I sold it. I was embarrassed to tell my kids that my watch was telling me how long to wash my hands for. Yep, I could have turned it off, but I thought getting rid of it sent a more powerful message to my kids. FFS, who needs a watch to tell them when to stand up, when to breathe and how long to wash your hands for. Couldn’t agree more JW313...
Do you trust anyone, or only those that agree with your world view?
Well... 0% is obviously nonsense, and 1.63% is a horrendously high mortality rate, which brings me swiftly to the next point
I think there is a fair possibility that you have not understood the figures properly.
I haste to add that neither do I, but at least I don't try to hide my paranoia behind them.
If you can't see that there is a major worldwide health emergency going on, then I have nothing else to say to you as there would be no point whatsoever.
As I said in my first post:
"Stop making excuses and be part of the solution instead."
No, not on here, but if you go over to reddit, r/Ontario there's a really detailed stat post shared every day around 10:45. Oddly, no covid app details over the past few days however.
Edit: Posted today:
COVID App Stats to February 08:
- Positives Uploaded to app in last day/week/month/since launch: 43 / 387 / 2,905 / 12,369 (4.2% / 4.0% / 4.5% / 5.1% of all cases)
- App downloads in last day/week/month/since launch: 3,326 / 13,786 / 83,748 / 2,612,380 (37.3% / 42.5% / 40.8% / 42.2% Android share)
I mentioned two entities and you infer I trust no one? Ok... Additionally, I’m not sure how you’ve concluded that I wouldn’t trust those who disagreed with my ‘world view’? Do you know what my ‘world view’ actually is?
Well, dismissing 0% as ‘obviously nonsense’, seems to confirm that you have not understood the data. When that article I linked was published, Mongolia had 0 deaths for example. Additionally, 1.63% is hardly horrendous. It’s at the other extreme end of the scale though, but still half the original rate projected from Chinese data. For perspective, the death rate of Spanish Flu was >2.5%. It’s still a fatality rate though and personal for a lot of people who have lost loved ones. The fatality rate for Seasonal Flu is around 0.8-1% if memory serves.
Well my paranoia is far from hidden really is it? It’s there for all to see as you said earlier ?
That’s all I see when I switch on my TV and Radio... Though Talk Radio does give a different narrative to all the mainstream outlets. There are other Internet outlets that help balance the coverage too. It is after all, good to question things and not just blindly accept everything we’re told. I suppose the data will tell the story when all is said and done. Hopefully...
Which equates to, agree with me or stand against me? I’m right and you’re wrong?
Exactly the sort of polarised conversation we should all be trying our best to avoid. I’ll continue to refuse to install the app and continue to be part of the problem in that case I guess... Especially if the solution involves acceptance that a jail term of 10 years should be handed out if a holiday maker isn’t honest about their travel history? I mean, scum responsible for violent firearm offences and sub-human scum responsible for sexual offences involving kids, will only get 7 years... I’m not saying you agree with that, just something I’ve read recently.
Doesn’t smell right to me... Oh, looks like my paranoia has kicked in again.
Take care.
You are in denial.
Edit: I’ve deleted the rest of the post because, frankly, what’s the point? I am out of this thread.
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In this instance the tracking is done through proximity and Bluetooth keys, which do not have your personal data stored anywhere online. Even if you were worried about Chinese laws, they only apply to users in China. Besides, China has been using it’s own contact tracing system long before the Apple/Google API came out, and that (as far as I can tell) doesn’t use the Apple/Google API.
This disease that has a vaccine so any type of restrictions will be temporary. Even if that particular pub is closed off to them for a while, what of it? Again, a pub is not by any measure somewhere that is needed for people to live their lives. It’s not fair, I understand, but it’s also the case with places not accepting cash or places that require you to have a membership.
For a modern disease being treated with modern medicine, fatality rates of even around 1% is very high given the transmissibility and the new strains that are more infectious. Why is Polio and Measles okay with you but not COVID? It affects the elderly disproportionately with some age groups such as 70+ having as high as 8-10% fatality rates. Polio has a fatality rate of 5-10% and measles is 0.1-0.2%. I can’t see how this is any different.
Modern technology is here so you can offload some of the things in your head so you an focus on things that matter. For example, calendar event notifications lets you offload things you can remember in your head. Cars beep when you’ve left your keys in it. Phones tell you when the battery is low when you could have easily checked that yourself. Not everything is for everyone, and that’s why there’s toggles for everything that is optional so you can customize what you want and don’t want. I would much rather my watch automatically detected water sounds and gave me a countdown because I always forgot to wash that long. The stand notifications are a good way to take a break when I’ve worked too long without realizing it. The breath notifications I’ve turned off because it’s not useful to me. It’s not a watch telling you when to do something, it’s you telling it to automate portions of your life so you don’t have to worry about them. But if none of these things are attractive to you, then maybe you weren’t a target audience for this type of technology in the first place.