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Sun Baked

macrumors G5
May 19, 2002
14,937
157
It would be interesting to have these single action tests COMBINED with another test via scripts to see what happens.

I really am wondering what the differences in speed would be there when testing (Photoshop & Quake framerates) or (Photoshop & Storage) to better test the different system buses.

---

These single action tests were fine under OS 9, when single actions were the norm. But OS X is a multi-threaded system - let's see tests that better reflect this.
 

barkmonster

macrumors 68020
Dec 3, 2001
2,134
15
Lancashire
I'd like see some benchmarks that really show how the DDR makes a difference. Gaming has got to be one, although I want to see what barefeats come up with. As an AGP graphics card can share the system RAM, that's 2.7Gb/s for the graphics card to play with. Also, audio applications rely on ram to buffer the audio streams, the DDR and ATA100 will definately show a boost to hard disk recording, it should also take more strain off the cpu meaning if you're using a track limited DAW like Logic Audio Silver or Protools LE you should get more plug-ins running on at once.

The 900Mb photoshop file idea is also a really good one to try.

I think crunch tests that are bound to mainly the L3 cache arn't too relevant, I want to see something that's pushing 100s of Mbs of RAM around and taking advantage of the faster ATA100 controller.

Saying that, the entry level is the fastest, cheapest, most highly specified powermac I've ever seen, strip out the modem and add a DVD-R/CDRW combo drive and you've got a pretty cool system for about £1,500!
 

giovanni

macrumors regular
Jul 1, 2002
214
0
manhattan
come on come on come on - sorry dudes but my tolerance for stupidity has hereby ended !

what idiots !!!!

have these Powermac written Motorola or Apple on them ????
These are "APPLE COMPUTER, Inc." computers and APPLE COMPUTER ONLY AND UNIQUELY IS RESPONSIBLE for the squallid and pathetic performance improvement.

I hope I don' need to say more on this. Just stop this Motorola crap.

Am I disappointed with APPLE ? yes. Am I pissed at Apple ? no. But some of you just don't want to blame mother god Apple so now you blame it on Motorola. Get a life ! may be ?

for me I will simply wait until they come up with a decent high end top of the line desktop, possibly up to date with current rather than historical technologyl. Meanwhile I will buy a 17" iMac.
 

cyks

macrumors 68020
Jul 24, 2002
2,090
8
Westchester County, NY
I'm sorry King, but I'm going to have to join elensil on this one... it's Apple's fault.

Granted, Moto is the one holding Apple back- but Apple is letting them. Moto isn't the only chip maker out there...and the no speed gains a year later only hurts Apple. Not Moto.

The general public doesn't know or care who makes the processors...and if you were to ask them, I'm sure they'd think Apple made them themselves.

Apple is the one in the public's eye...they're the one that are trying to sell computers... they're the ones that chose Moto to make thier current chips. If Moto can't keep up with demands then Apple should have dumped them long ago.
 

Chryx

macrumors regular
Jul 8, 2002
248
0
Originally posted by giovanni

have these Powermac written Motorola or Apple on them ????
These are "APPLE COMPUTER, Inc." computers and APPLE COMPUTER ONLY AND UNIQUELY IS RESPONSIBLE for the squallid and pathetic performance improvement.

I hope I don' need to say more on this. Just stop this Motorola crap.


Apple can only build a computer as fast as the parts they have available to them...

Motorola are currently the snag upon which Apple's performance is stuck.

(Fully paid up member of "SWITCH TO IBM YOU FOOLS" here)
 

giovanni

macrumors regular
Jul 1, 2002
214
0
manhattan
yes yes yes, but it still remains and forever will be Apple's problem and responsibility. Assuming (ASSUMING) it is indeed Mot that is slowing down progress (sorry what did Steve Jobs call it, "innovation" !?!?!?! ahahahahahahha) then it may be the case that Apple simply committed a huge strategic mistake. For instance noone better than Apple would have realized such difficulties in the "evolution" of the PPC, so Apple should have hedged itself by having other suppliers ready (business 101).

I guess Steve Jobs mentioned "innovation" without specifying he was referring to software only. there has been no hardware innovation whatsoever in ages at Apple Inc.

I would like to say, I still love Apple, but I am ready to spend on truly innovative hardware.
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
15,769
1,938
Lard
Originally posted by drastik
hmm, that's too bad, I'd love to see a speed increase. Oh well, at least its $400 dollars cheaper now, price is more in line with performance.

Exactly! It may not be faster than the old one, for what we've seen so far, but it's cheaper than the old one and it performs better than the old middle machine.

Either way, that's positive!
 

elensil

macrumors regular
Jul 1, 2002
130
0
Brooklyn, NY
I admit that Flame wars are the last thing we need at these forums. I didn't mean to start one.

I know it's Motorola's fault and Apple DID a lot to improve the low end performance.
What i really want to see is some benchmarks (read test of any sort) to see the performance of the 867 dual.
 

Hemingray

macrumors 68030
Jan 9, 2002
2,926
37
Ha ha haaa!
Originally posted by elensil
I admit that Flame wars are the last thing we need at these forums. I didn't mean to start one.

It's okay, flamewars are bound to happen in a thread that people care so much about. This is very important to us, because we've been waiting for DDR for so long now, only to find out that it's another half-baked Yikes situation.

I'm not worried, I know Apple will update the chips as soon as Motorola gets their lousy act together. Apple is indeed a tight spot as always, and we can most likely thank Motorola once again for putting them there.
 

rice_web

macrumors 6502a
Oct 25, 2001
584
0
Minot, North Dakota
That BareFeats test doesn't even show the specs of each machine used! How much RAM was present in each machine?

Overall, I'd say that the new dual-1GHz machine is faster, and will seem significantly faster than the old dual-1GHz machine once Jaguar is shown (yeah, the Barefeats test used Jaguar). I want to see games in these benchmarks, not iTunes tests. Who cares if iTunes is a bit faster? Unless one has a CD to import and burn before heading to work, I don't see the use (I can't imagine any corporations using iTunes).

And for god's sake, let's wait for the dual-1.25GHz benchmarks before we're too harsh.

And... if you can't stand these machines, I'd wait until November, when I expect the 7470 at 1.33GHz.
 

Gelfin

macrumors 68020
Sep 18, 2001
2,165
5
Denver, CO
Ummm.....

Why would you test the performance benefit of a new memory architecture using four processor-bound tasks?
 

tjwett

macrumors 68000
May 6, 2002
1,880
0
Brooklyn, NYC
i knew it. overclocked crapola. still waiting for something good. i think the best thing to do now is find an "old" dual 1ghz for cheap. these tests are enough proof for me. i trust barefeats.
 

topicolo

macrumors 68000
Jun 4, 2002
1,672
0
Ottawa, ON
Originally posted by Chryx
Originally posted by giovanni

have these Powermac written Motorola or Apple on them ????
These are "APPLE COMPUTER, Inc." computers and APPLE COMPUTER ONLY AND UNIQUELY IS RESPONSIBLE for the squallid and pathetic performance improvement.

I hope I don' need to say more on this. Just stop this Motorola crap.


Apple can only build a computer as fast as the parts they have available to them...

Motorola are currently the snag upon which Apple's performance is stuck.

(Fully paid up member of "SWITCH TO IBM YOU FOOLS" here)

Totally agree. Motorola has f-ed up apple one time too many. Time for apple to give moto the finger and stick it to 'em :eek: Apple needs new processors and they need them soon. Let's hope IBM can get good yields on their new chips and that they can ramp up production soon.
Either way, nothing's going to save apple this quarter :(
 

rice_web

macrumors 6502a
Oct 25, 2001
584
0
Minot, North Dakota
Oh, and don't forget about overclocking! I bet the dual-1GHz machine could go to 1.33GHz or so. That cooling system that the new PowerMacs use is, I dare say, wicked.
 

Sun Baked

macrumors G5
May 19, 2002
14,937
157
Remember people these are typical OS 9 style testing procedures, these tests may use SMP capabilities better than OS 9 - but it's still a single test - single action.

OS X allows you to do MORE at the same time, let's combine these tests into something real world for OS X.

The new machine is supposed to allow better response when you combine heavy HD access with number crunching and QE.

They (Apple) hinted at better system response, let's test it.
 

Rower_CPU

Moderator emeritus
Oct 5, 2001
11,219
2
San Diego, CA
Originally posted by rice_web
That BareFeats test doesn't even show the specs of each machine used! How much RAM was present in each machine?

Overall, I'd say that the new dual-1GHz machine is faster, and will seem significantly faster than the old dual-1GHz machine once Jaguar is shown (yeah, the Barefeats test used Jaguar). I want to see games in these benchmarks, not iTunes tests. Who cares if iTunes is a bit faster? Unless one has a CD to import and burn before heading to work, I don't see the use (I can't imagine any corporations using iTunes).

And for god's sake, let's wait for the dual-1.25GHz benchmarks before we're too harsh.

And... if you can't stand these machines, I'd wait until November, when I expect the 7470 at 1.33GHz.

Why would they release another new PM in November?

When has Apple ever revved a product 3 months after a new one was released?
Hell, the 1.25 GHz doesn't ship for another month or so...you think they'll say: "We just started shipping the 1.25 GHz model to all of you who wanted the fastest PowerMac available, and we sure appreciate your $3000+...but we decided to release a newer, faster PowerMac now." :confused:
 

xelterran

macrumors 6502
Dec 28, 2001
291
0
as soon as apple dump moto the better i think a 64bit Power4 chip would look VERY nice in the powermacs - hopefully they release it sometime soon (january?)
 

rice_web

macrumors 6502a
Oct 25, 2001
584
0
Minot, North Dakota
Wahoo

Why would they release another new PM in November?

Because they have to. :D

But seriously, Intel releases new processors all the time. AMD releases processors all the time. Both don't give a damn about the customers that just bought their CPUs last week.

Apple could do the following (and quietly):

dual-900MHz
dual-1.1GHz
dual-1.33GHz

This would be such a seemingly small update, but with the 7470, the increase in speed would be very significant at the same clock speed. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw this in November, with something to the tune of a G5 in March (the G5 may still be a year or so away, but I'm betting on March right now).
 

Sun Baked

macrumors G5
May 19, 2002
14,937
157
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
When has Apple ever revved a product 3 months after a new one was released?

Can you say Yikes!

The G4 400 lived 1999.08.31 to 1999.10.13
The G4 350 lived 1999.10.13 to 1999.12.02

They liked it so much they did it twice and back-to-back.
 

ftaok

macrumors 603
Jan 23, 2002
6,487
1,572
East Coast
What's all this "overclocking" talk???

Seriously,

The new dual-1ghz machine is definately not an overclocked 7455. The new dual-1.25ghz machine is not available yet, so how does anyone know if it's an overclocked chip???

Maybe Motorola has gotten the 7455 up to 1.25ghz, but not yet at the yields that Apple needs.

Or, maybe the dual-1.25ghz will feature the 7470 (with full DDR support - assumed).

Either way, it wouldn't be an overclocked 1ghz 7455. Apple would be stupid to sell machines like that. If they did, they'd be looking at a lot of warranty claims when anything processor related breaks.

Think about it.
 

Wry Cooter

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2002
418
0
For the Barefeats tests to mean anything (And he should seriously retest), he should be running more than one of these homebrewed benchmarks simultaneously.. they are processor bound tasks! Of course they aren't going to show any difference (Maybe one or two of them can access multiprocessing at all, but I don't think so, maybe the bryce render, I'm not so sure).

Where the speed of the new machines will show up is in multithreaded tasks. Ripping MP3s *WHILE* simultaneously doing Photoshop flipflops.

So run more than one of the benchmarks simultaneously on the earlier Dual and the New Dual, both running Jaguar, then we will see ....

In any case, I agree that these particular machines are a stopgap, a stepping stone, a small speedbump in the road for something that can use a front side bus later. But this is typical for towers, if you look at the Blue and White>Yikes>Sawtooth>Digital Audio>SuperDrive moves.

Marketing and readiness of parts will probably keep another bump from showing until next summer though, although really, January or May would be better.
 

demars

macrumors member
Jul 9, 2002
40
12
Santa Monica, CA
I cannot believe...

...that such a big deal is being made over these particular benchmarks. After thinking about the nature of these particular benchmarks, I could have predicted the results. And the guys at Bare Feats should know this too, if they are going to be in the business of comparing performance they should be aware of what aspect of the system is being tested by any particular benchmark.

First of all, a special note to all of you seem to think that these benchmarks prove the DDR implementation is worthless; remember, independent of the DDR, the new machine does have a 25% faster system bus, so it can definitely talk to the RAM 25% faster than the old machine, and as the Bare Feats article mentioned this didn't seem to make a difference either. Does this clue you in that there is something about these benchmarks that makes them less than ideal to measuer the effective RAM bandwidth?

Let's take the Altivec Carbon Fractal benchmark first, that yielded identical times across the board. I'm the author of a fractal program myself and I know what's involved. This doesn't surprise me at all.

What a fractal program does, in simple terms, is walk across a set of points, an image if you will. for each pixel in the image, it repeats a simple set of arithemetic calculations over and over again; for some pixels this can be repeated hundreds of times. So, for instance, you might have something like:

newx = x*x - y*y + cx
newy = 2xy + cy
x = newx
y = newy

in a loop repeated many times for each point.

For something like this 99.999% of the time is spent by the CPU doing calculations, not accessing memory; in fact the code and a large part of the image will reside in the cache throughout the calculation, and I'm not even talking about the L3 cache, most of the time it is accessing the registers and the on-chip cache!

Well, you can see why this would be a very good test of CPU power and floating point speed in particular. You couldn't come up with something that was more CPU intensive. Or, less memory bandwidth intensive. This kind of algorithm spends a miniscule amount of the total time left reading from or writing to RAM anyway; if you made the memory bandwidth infinite it would barely have made a difference.

The other benchmarks suffer from a similar criticism. These things are all quite CPU intensive, although not quite as single-mindedly as fractal calculation, and they spend a small amount of time moving data to the internal cache compared to the time they spend crunching the data once it is in the cache. Apple likes to show off CPU-intensive software like PhotoShop filters, at least if it has been Altivec-optimized, because it shows off the speed of the Altivec unit. But for that very reason, these tasks don't really test the performance of the rest of the system, but JUST the CPU. The only thing that would speed them up is increasing the clock speed of the CPU.

So why bother with anything other than speeding up the CPU clock speed? Because we don't spend our entire life running fractal programs and PhotoShop filters. It is great to have these things speeded up, because they are so time consuming, but most of our time we are doing other things too, like web browsing, text editing, etc.

So where would we see the 25% system bus increase? Well, if you are a PhotoShop user, maybe something as simple as scrolling through a very large image would seem faster. That is a task that requires a lot of data being shifted through memory and relatively little CPU execution time. That's the sort of thing that might not seem much faster if you had a 4GHz CPU but would seem faster with a higher memory bandwidth.

And where would we see the improvement from Apple's DDR implementation, since it doesn't increase bandwidhth to the CPU? Well, since it does allow other parts of the system to do DMA without necessarily stealing bandwidth from the CPU (or from other parts of the system) maybe you would see it when, say doing a big file transfer and simultaneously watching a full screen movie without seeing a glitch in the movie. (Probably you can do that on the old dual 1GHz too, but if you keep adding on real time tasks you can bring any system to its knees, perhaps the DDR implementation in the new machines would push that point further out). So the DDR may enable the system to have more things happen reliably in real time when some of them don't require intense CPU intervention.

That seems like a worthwhile improvement to me, but how do you benchmark it? There probably is a way to do it, maybe running several benchmarks simultaneously, some of which exercise the I/O; but just running CPU-intensive benchmarks is not going to do it.

(I think I might send a copy of this to Bare Feats and see what they have to say).
 
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