OS 8-9 PowerPC 2023: Build Hackintosh or Buy Vintage?

[macvox]

i know there is a "what to buy" subforum but i thought since this is pretty PowerPC specific i would get the best replies here. sorry if this is the wrong section!

there were tons of wonderful mac exclusive games and i want to replay them the best way possible. for the best compatibility with the greatest number of those games i need a PPC that boots systems 8 through 9. all the info i can find on "classic environment" in PPC OSX says for games it's not even as good as emulators.

Why not just use emulators?

OS 8-9 PPC emulation is crazily behind all other emulation of systems i know of.

qemu can barely support sound and probably won't have any 3D-acceleration support within five years. sheepshaver is fine for a lot of things but i find it unstable, glitchy and slowish, plus no 3d there either, and like qemu there's no real direct support for extra peripherals like joysticks and gamepads.

i don't need to hear the old reasons why emulation is difficult, i'm just explaining why i want a real system instead of emulation so nobody wastes a post suggesting that.

PPC Hackintosh? no way, you must be thinking of Intel Macs

The best OS 8-capable machine i know of was made from a ton of newish components plugged into a non-Apple PowerTower mobo with a 1Ghz Sonnet. I couldn't find that mobo for sale anywhere. i thought maybe now that retro is so popular maybe someone has figured how to use some kind of currently available (maybe recently manufactured?) PPC hardware that can boot the classic OSes?

i have bad luck with ebay and tho im good at building systems from working parts, the last few times i tried to repair older hardware myself, it was stressful and unsuccessful. so if there's a way to buy anything relatively new and make a OS8 capable hackintosh that would be awesome. it seems like there's always somebody building old-pc-compatible new systems out of random Z80 processors and there are even 486 CPUs still being made so i thought just maybe there's some kind of option...

Buying vintage?

Ok so unless im mistaken, the 333mhz G3 tower is the best stock model that can boot OS8.1.

however it seems there were clones and upgrades that offered better CPU speed, more RAM, and more types of ports and slots for connectivity (joysticks, SCSI based drives, ADB and USB, high quality audio output, upgraded 3D cards, etc). plus they are usually easier to upgrade/replace parts in.

i would really rather get one of those kinds of systems than a stock apple build for all those reasons. then there's the question of where/how to buy the machine.

i hate buying vintage hardware from ebay scalpers most of whom just don't have any real tech chops to put the machine in a refurbished condition i can depend on. it's like 90 percent of them can't even pack things safe for shipping (order an optical disc, get an envelope full of glitter dust!)

if i have to buy vintage then is there any way to buy any of this stuff from somebody who's a professional and has done a ton of work on macs? instead of just searching ebay and hoping against the odds a random seller knows how to test, recondition and ship? are there like well-known vendors that forum users trust?

ok thanks for reading and for all the great info on the forum

 

[MysticCow]

Does it *have* to be 8.1? The Yikes G4 boots 8.6 and would be a hair stronger.

 

[Doq]

all the info i can find on "classic environment" in PPC OSX says for games it's not even as good as emulators.

Have you considered Jaguar? Its Classic doesn't exhibit oddities that later versions of OS X do.

 

[repairedCheese]

The best OS 8-capable machine i know of was made from a ton of newish components plugged into a non-Apple PowerTower mobo with a 1Ghz Sonnet. I couldn't find that mobo for sale anywhere. i thought maybe now that retro is so popular maybe someone has figured how to use some kind of currently available (maybe recently manufactured?) PPC hardware that can boot the classic OSes?

This is very specifically not a thing. It's kind of a long story, but effetely, what IBM still makes is very different from what Motorola use to. Getting OSX running on an IBM Power system requires the use of QEMU, to give you an idea of the changes. It's (mostly) using virtualization, but it's still QEMU. Also IBM Power systems cost thousands if not tens of thousands. Even the older ones on eBay that only cost hundreds have the same limitations. I mean, the G5 can't even do what you're looking for.

if i have to buy vintage then is there any way to buy any of this stuff from somebody who's a professional and has done a ton of work on macs? instead of just searching ebay and hoping against the odds a random seller knows how to test, recondition and ship? are there like well-known vendors that forum users trust?

This is also not a thing. There may have been a time when it was, but all the supply of used PPC Macs has long since moved away from any large organizations, and has since been scattered to the winds. There's not enough for anyone to actually make a business out of these old machines.

That said, if you buy local, you often have the advantage of seeing your machine boot before paying, and you also don't have to worry about anything getting broken in shipping. That's the thing, I don't think anyone here particularly enjoys eBay, too many people on there don't know what they're doing when they price and ship old computers. Better to take it home in your trunk.

Look, I got into this for basically the same reason you did. But there's nothing I've run into that specifically needs Mac OS 8.1. The entire G4 desktop line will run OS 9, but that doesn't also mean you should get the most recent G4, as the MDDs tend to run hot and have failing power supplies.

 

[mode11]

@macvox What games do you want to play that can't run on OS 9? OS 9 wasn't that much of a change from OS 8; it basically just gave MacOS a polish until OS X was up to speed.

Might want to consider a Titanium PowerBook. The 1GHz model was the last PB to natively run OS 9.

 

[barracuda156]

The entire G4 desktop line will run OS 9

Some better ones do not, AFAIK.

 

[mode11]

Macintosh Garden has an OS 9 build for the FW400 MDD towers, which have dual 1.25GHz G4s at least - https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/ma...1-power-macintosh-g4-mirrored-drive-doors-mdd

 

[AphoticD]

I'm a Sawtooth fan. Mac OS 8.6 runs great on this for retro gaming, even with the stock 16MB Rage 128 Pro.

• Easy to play with (great internal design) > Swing the side door open for access to everything.
• Runs cool and the cooling fans are not too noisy
• Rock solid power supplies (in my experience)
• Good performance for their age and can can take up to 2GB of RAM (1.5GB accessible under Mac OS 8/9)
• Plenty of internal space for upgrades (such as running as a file server with multiple HDDs via a PCI SATA card)
• Can comfortably run up to Leopard (via Leopard Assist)
• Mostly easy to find upgrades / parts for (GPU, CPU, PCI cards, etc)
• Easy to overclock and possible to adapt/shoehorn various G4 CPU cards (such as from the DA, QS)
• Some can handle a dual CPU upgrade (depending on revision)
• Still selling for a modest price (unlike a B&W G3 or MDD)

 

[VivienM]

Might want to consider a Titanium PowerBook. The 1GHz model was the last PB to natively run OS 9.

Titanium G4s are among the hardest to find in good condition. First, they're not known for their durability, so lots likely got e-wasted due to hinge failures, etc. Second, I think the 1GHz ones in good condition, especially, have been in the hands of collectors for over a decade. The 1GHz TiBook is... frankly, one of the most collectible Macs ever. Other than maybe... a TAM or maaaaybe a G4 Cube, is there really any Mac that is more collectible?

I just recently picked up an 867MHz in quite reasonable condition (not mint, there are certainly some scratches, but it has healthy hinges, the back cover for the ports, etc) and I had been looking on eBay and Facebook Marketplace for... at least six months, maybe closer to a year. Would have loved to get a 1GHz but... most of what I saw were ~500MHz ones with broken hinges.

 

[Doq]

Other than maybe... a TAM or maaaaybe a G4 Cube, is there really any Mac that is more collectible?

Duo 2300c. Potentially the A1139 to some. Potentially the Quad to others. I personally have my eyes out for a G3 Kanga. Sorry, tangent.

If you want a machine purely for Classic Mac OS, a Titanium is probably overkill; this coming from an owner of a Titanium 1G that is purely an OS 9 machine.

If you're money-conscious, either an iBook Snow or one of the Powerbook G3 Series laptops should be plenty, especially for most Classic Mac OS games, and you won't need to risk tripping the breaker to run it.

 

[VivienM]

Duo 2300c. Potentially the A1139 to some. Potentially the Quad to others. I personally have my eyes out for a G3 Kanga. Sorry, tangent.

Objectively, though, are those more collectible than the Titanium G4?

Of course, everyone is going to have their favourites and the ones they really want to get, e.g. while I don't really have the real estate for ADB/DB-15/etc systems, I certainly wouldn't turn down a Quadra 840av if one fell from the sky. (The ones on eBay are almost as expensive as they were brand new...) My brain would rather get a beige G3, but the 840av...

That being said, is the 840av really one of the all-time collectible Macs? I suspect many people would probably favour the 700 for that era. The 840av just appeals to me because it was the ultimate Mac at a time in my childhood where I was probably the ultimate Mac fan (less than two years before my dad mandated switching to DOS/Windows)... and the 700 doesn't because, frankly, at the time, when everybody was at peak excitement over CD-ROM (hah... that excitement didn't even last a decade), the 700 without an internal CD-ROM felt... dated... and the 800/840av seemed cool.

By emotional appeal, I might even want an 8100... now that is a Mac that I have never, ever seen on a Mac collector's bucket list. Don't think there's much love out there for NuBus Power Macs.

 

[mode11]

The 1GHz may be a bit of a unicorn (I got mine years ago, and it took a while to get one with a nice condition / price), but any Ti should be fine for OS8/9 games. Has a G4 chip, reasonable graphics and can be put back on the shelf when not being used. Nice screen too - the bezels are still slim even by modern standards.

It wasn’t the first PPC Mac I sought out though. Got the Cube, iMac G4 and Pismo first. Maybe the Quicksilver too. But then I’ve always been more of a desktop guy.

 

[macvox]

well on reddit there is a guy who is running system 7.6 on a 1ghz G4, if i could do that (or even better with a 1.25-2ghz) that would be my ideal setup if i can figure some way to find the correct combination of parts and system files/discs i would need?

i have no options except to buy the parts online.

there are even threads on this forum from 15+ years ago where posters talk about getting 7.6 booting on G4's, but now when you try to search for those same terms i am getting a ton of results where people keep repeating that not even G3's can boot earlier than system 8...?

so there is not quite enough information i can find to make sure i buy the right thing, but it seems like definitely these are all things:
system 7.6 can boot on a 1ghz G4
system 9 can be hacked to boot on a 1.45-2ghz G4
...so why not system 7.6 on a G3, or 8 on a 1.25/1.45ghz G4?

it seems like the answer is you just have to start with the right motherboard and cpu upgrade options (603/604 mobo seems to guarantee OS7.6 support basically) but then after that i am having trouble finding specifically what discs and process to use for installation, etc. it is like a puzzle out of myst trying to search out exact model numbers and driver sources for video cards, scsi, etc., etc. to make sure it will all work just right.

there are very specific guides for getting 9.2 on a FW800 for example, but when i search i get tons of conflicting information for trying to do anything with earlier OS versions.

 

[repairedCheese]

well on reddit there is a guy who is running system 7.6 on a 1ghz G4, if i could do that (or even better with a 1.25-2ghz) that would be my ideal setup if i can figure some way to find the correct combination of parts and system files/discs i would need?

i have no options except to buy the parts online.

there are even threads on this forum from 15+ years ago where posters talk about getting 7.6 booting on G4's, but now when you try to search for those same terms i am getting a ton of results where people keep repeating that not even G3's can boot earlier than system 8...?

so there is not quite enough information i can find to make sure i buy the right thing, but it seems like definitely these are all things:
system 7.6 can boot on a 1ghz G4
system 9 can be hacked to boot on a 1.45-2ghz G4
...so why not system 7.6 on a G3, or 8 on a 1.25/1.45ghz G4?

it seems like the answer is you just have to start with the right motherboard and cpu upgrade options (603/604 mobo seems to guarantee OS7.6 support basically) but then after that i am having trouble finding specifically what discs and process to use for installation, etc. it is like a puzzle out of myst trying to search out exact model numbers and driver sources for video cards, scsi, etc., etc. to make sure it will all work just right.

there are very specific guides for getting 9.2 on a FW800 for example, but when i search i get tons of conflicting information for trying to do anything with earlier OS versions.

So, odds are, what you are running into are people who upgraded very old Powermacs, specifically the beige Power Macintosh 9600 and others like them. Sonnet made G4 upgrade cpus for those and compatible, and they didn't lose the ability to boot OS 7.5.5 in the process. My guess is that this is what you've run into on reddit. I would not suggest doing that. If you need 7.5/7.6, emulators are actually your best bet these days. And I mean 68k Mac emulators, as that's not really the realm of the PPC Mac. Oh sure, early PPC models could run it, but if I understand it right, there was still pure 68k code in parts of the os until at least 8.5. You do not want a beige beast of a Powermac.

Because you are right, it's about getting the right motherboard, but you don't usually buy these things in pieces.

i hate buying vintage hardware from ebay scalpers most of whom just don't have any real tech chops to put the machine in a refurbished condition i can depend on. it's like 90 percent of them can't even pack things safe for shipping (order an optical disc, get an envelope full of glitter dust!)

This is what you'd be dealing with. They're not selling them to be heavily used.

I have to ask, what are you trying to run? Because if it's pre 3d-accelrated games, Mac emulators will do just fine, and if it's post 3d-accelerated games, well, frankly, if you can get it on Mac, you can get it on PC. And, on PC, there's a decent chance the original installer will still just work, now, on a modern computer running modern Windows. You might even be able to buy it on Steam, and if not, then GOG.

Following the motherboard isn't really going to get you where it sounds like you want to go either. Motherboards aren't any kind of standard, which is kind of important. Let's say you find the motherboard you're looking for, if you do that, you can't just throw it into an ATX case, you need a case that's actually compatible with the motherboard. Which, often, is only one.

But seriously, why do you need a PPC Mac that can run 7.5/7.6-8.1? That's almost pure 68k territory, and emulators really do have it covered.

 

[Amethyst1]

well on reddit there is a guy who is running system 7.6 on a 1ghz G4 […]

Is it that one? That’s a system capable of running 7.6.1 OOTB with a G4 upgrade as @repairedCheese said.

[…] or 8 on a 1.25/1.45ghz G4?

The latest Mac OS 8.6 build “ever made” (for the Sawtooth) has been booted on a 1.42 GHz MDD.

 

[repairedCheese]

Is it that one? That’s a system capable of running 7.6.1 OOTB with a G4 upgrade as @repairedCheese said.


The latest Mac OS 8.6 build “ever made” (for the Sawtooth) has been booted on a 1.42 GHz MDD.

You know, I'd completely forgotten that build. And, I think I finally understand the OP's confusion. it looks so well done and modern, you wouldn't normally think that it's actually one of these:

Deep down, that fancy Redditt build is just an exceedingly rare Mac clone from 1996, pushed to the absolute limit. Or, about as close as anyone has tried. And, the irony is, as impressive as it would have been being able to use a Mac from 1996 in 2006 and still have a fairly good time, a feat we now generally take for granted, it wouldn't feel like a 1 GHz G4, considering how much slower everything else inside of it would have been. Not to mention, the PCI Radeon 7200 is hobbled, not having Quartz Extreme support, which would help this thing greatly.

Don't get me wrong, the Redditor did put together more or less the best OS 7.5 Mac, but the parts are so rare and I'm honestly not sure you can even boot OSX on one of those things.

Its motherboard only even fits in a modern case because the clones could use ATX in 1996. Flip side is, if you wanted to make a fun Hackintosh, this would be the case to do it in.

 

[macvox]

thanks for the replies

i read more about this stuff and yeah i guess the upgraded 9500/9600 is the only way to accomplish that

i have been using mac emulators since the days they ran in pure dos mode, and like in my first post macintosh seems to be the most popular underdeveloped platform in emulation.

basilisk/sheep are mostly okay except even testing several different boot roms i get tons of glitches and instability i never had on a real mac (e.g. games crashing, graphical corruption, midi timing is erratic in all builds from the last several years regardless of quicktime version) and there's no way to get joysticks or 3d acceleration. qemu is just a lot of promises that itll be great eventually but the main version doesnt even have sound and i have never gotten past the confusing terminal stuff (always some error at some point) even though i prefer dos interface to windows10/11. but thats not important, it's still missing features and i'm not sure that it would be any faster than an mdd running native.

there are actually some great 3d-accelerated games from the system 8-9 period that aren't on pc (fortunately for pc their glide and early d3d games can use wrappers, nothing like that for macs)

and then some games from the system 7 time that really need joysticks with analog input (cant just autohotkey or xpadder that stuff). more important some of those games just don't display properly past system 9.0/1, kind of like how some games from system6 and earlier don't like 7+. macgarden has many entries with reports of these problems

but really even if this thread's done let's not turn it into one about emulation please

if i can use that 8.6 build (i hadnt seen that, thats great thanks a million!) along with a dual boot of 9.2 on a mdd, that should take care of my requirements, once i find a joystick that will work and maybe some kind of sound device with a digital output

ok i think this thread answered all my starting questions so from now if i ask any more annoying questions they will be about dual booting system 8 and 9 on a mdd, new thread

 

[repairedCheese]

thanks for the replies

i read more about this stuff and yeah i guess the upgraded 9500/9600 is the only way to accomplish that

i have been using mac emulators since the days they ran in pure dos mode, and like in my first post macintosh seems to be the most popular underdeveloped platform in emulation.

basilisk/sheep are mostly okay except even testing several different boot roms i get tons of glitches and instability i never had on a real mac (e.g. games crashing, graphical corruption, midi timing is erratic in all builds from the last several years regardless of quicktime version) and there's no way to get joysticks or 3d acceleration. qemu is just a lot of promises that itll be great eventually but the main version doesnt even have sound and i have never gotten past the confusing terminal stuff (always some error at some point) even though i prefer dos interface to windows10/11. but thats not important, it's still missing features and i'm not sure that it would be any faster than an mdd running native.

there are actually some great 3d-accelerated games from the system 8-9 period that aren't on pc (fortunately for pc their glide and early d3d games can use wrappers, nothing like that for macs)

and then some games from the system 7 time that really need joysticks with analog input (cant just autohotkey or xpadder that stuff). more important some of those games just don't display properly past system 9.0/1, kind of like how some games from system6 and earlier don't like 7+. macgarden has many entries with reports of these problems

but really even if this thread's done let's not turn it into one about emulation please

if i can use that 8.6 build (i hadnt seen that, thats great thanks a million!) along with a dual boot of 9.2 on a mdd, that should take care of my requirements, once i find a joystick that will work and maybe some kind of sound device with a digital output

ok i think this thread answered all my starting questions so from now if i ask any more annoying questions they will be about dual booting system 8 and 9 on a mdd, new thread

Honestly? You don't want one Mac. They never made the one Mac you want. This is a normal problem. You want something that runs OS 7, and mainly that's 68k territory, but also you want OS 8 support, and that's more PPC territory. Yes, you can upgrade some of the early PPC Macs, but it's kind of a lot of work and money on more fragile hardware. Genuinely, you are going to have a better time with late 68k Macs than early PPC Macs. Most later PPC Macs can do half of what you want, the 3d acceleration support in particular, really well.

 

[macvox]

well it wasnt important for the questions so i didnt mention it but i do have 68k macs,
however my macs are basically just antiques and aren't fast
and there are at least several system 7-8 games that benefit hugely from faster cpus
(these games can run arbitrary resolutions up to hardware limit and the goal is to keep playable framerate)
so i want to play on a G4 using 8.6 if possible
(they might still work on 9.2.2 if im lucky but some posts on macgarden had probs)

 

[Doq]

...so why not system 7.6 on a G3

As an owner of a Rev 1 PMG3 (the first and worst of the Beige G3s), I tried to run 7.6 on it and it bombed, shocker.

It probably could work if I tinkered with it more but I don't really feel like it.

A lot of these 'old Mac OS boots on X hardware' showcases often involve either at least some knowledge that some earlier model that may be mostly compatible did boot that old Mac OS in some capacity (see the MDD in #15) or lots and lots of software tinkering, to varying degrees of functional (see e.g. the MacOS9Lives project). It might boot, yes, but between a little and a lot might not work correctly or at all like it would on the supported Mac OS.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

Infinite Mac

A classic Mac loaded with everything you'd want.

infinitemac.org

If anything, this is fun

 

[ojfd]

As an owner of a Rev 1 PMG3 (the first and worst of the Beige G3s), I tried to run 7.6 on it and it bombed, shocker.

It probably could work if I tinkered with it more but I don't really feel like it.

It won't, no matter what.

A lot of these 'old Mac OS boots on X hardware' showcases often involve either at least some knowledge that some earlier model that may be mostly compatible did boot that old Mac OS in some capacity (see the MDD in #15) or lots and lots of software tinkering, to varying degrees of functional (see e.g. the MacOS9Lives project). It might boot, yes, but between a little and a lot might not work correctly or at all like it would on the supported Mac OS.

MacOS9Lives project was only possible on machines based on New World ROMs. Beige G3 and previous models don't have it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_ROM

 

[Doq]

Separate examples. They're not meant to be lumped together.

 

[mortlocli]

theres also the raspberry pi - Macintosh Pi.

'MacintoshPi is a small project that allows running full-screen versions of Apple's Mac OS 7, Mac OS 8 and Mac OS 9 with sound, active Internet connection and modem emulation under Raspberry Pi. All this without the X.org manager, only a multimedia SDL2 library and from the CLI / Raspberry Pi OS Lite. This lets emulators use full power of Raspberry Pi, making them more stable and useful in combination with additional retro-software.'

MacintoshPi – Mac OS 7/8/9 for Raspberry Pi – Jaromaz

I have not yet tried it..but I intend to.

 

[repairedCheese]

I will say, when it comes to emulation, 68k Mac emulation is actually rather stable and mature. It's PPC Mac emulation that's something of a dumpster fire. For example, I just learned that Sheepshaver and Basilisk II gained the ability to play cd audio. Which is actually amazing, because Redbook audio is just a vibe we will never have again. I was trying to play Civilization II: Multiplayer Gold Edition on my Steamdeck, because the Windows version uses too much of the GUI to be able to work properly in game mode, never mind the codec use, or the need for a mounted cd for all of the features to work, that just means that the Mac version is the better way to play.

But see, just as I started to get anywhere, the whole thing would crash. It was never consistent when or where it would crash, but it was always quick. The other answer is to emulate/virtualize Windows, but that's a whole mess I didn't want to get into.

It's well worth trying emulators out yourself to see what does and doesn't work before buying hardware though, especially when the alternative is to buy 25+ year old hardware to get mid 90's OS support. Not to mention, it's actually something of a challenge these days to get software on hardware that old. Invest in a cd burner and hope the cd rom drive likes burned disks, because it just gets worse, so much worse from there.

That's why I would much more easily recommend one of the G4 Macs, which come with Classic support, USB, fast ethernet, IDE, all the comforts of a more modern computer.